A key point being missed in regards to UTSA

[forevereagle]

I don't know why yall can't just let both Texas St and UTSA wait their turn to grow in the Sun Belt? CUSA will still have schools from Texas in the conference when yall get in with Rice &/or UTEP

Since we are the decision makers here.

[PlummMeanGreen]

I don't know why yall can't just let both Texas St and UTSA wait their turn to grow in the Sun Belt? CUSA will still have schools from Texas in the conference when yall get in with Rice &/or UTEP

We used to call it "let them pay their dues." All this will have become too easy for UTSA and TSU even with their getting in the Sun Belt Conference (which is expected)--yet --both athletic programs who have yet to play one game as an FBS classified school.

It's for damn sure La Tech and UNT have had to pay their dues and probably even moreso for UNT since we were playing at what was called the NCAA's highest level in the 1950's and even with UNT's Times' All American Abner Hayne-led Sun Bowl team in that decade.

Post-Hayden Fry Era, I wouldn't wish on our worst enemy (if we had one) the roller coaster ride our athletic program has been on tagging onto that 12 humiliating "de-frocked" years as the NCAA's version of the red-headed step-child--that is, 1-AA classification. Our Young Gun Alums will never meet many of the alums who threw their hands up with our school when we went down a classification level; that is, those now lost alums who gave up on the non-direction our then UNT administration gave us. We did receive much in the area of lip-service, though.

During our walk in the wildnerness of (uninterested in athletics) UNT leadership plus the non-stop comedy of athletic department hiring errors none of whom our major varsity sports coaches left Denton with over .500 won/loss records. Then too many of our alums began to accept mediocrity and competing "only" in the Bottom 25 with a few successful years at that level as the expected norm in Denton and quite frankly...... if not for the booster shot that Apogee Stadium gave us I'm not sure we would still be operating in that mode of accepting just about anything dished out to us.

Apogee Stadium is a true, legitimate NCAA D1 facility, but North Texas powers that be will still need to hire more legit D1 personnel (with a D1 mind-set) from top to bottom in the athletic department to keep Apogee from becoming a Hollywood'esque mansion inhibited by the equivalent of the Beverly HIllbillies (w/o the Texas tea). Just sayin' ...

GMG!

Edited April 16, 2012 by PlummMeanGreen

[casual fan]

Face facts.

1. UTSA home games averaged 35,521 last year. With a 4-6 record they still drew 32,369 their last home game playing Minot State. They have HOME games lined up with Arizona, Arizona State, Virginia, Kansas State, Rice, Houston, Baylor, and Oklahoma State. The Alamodome holds 65,000. They have a huge city behind them with no pro team to contend with. We have little if any impact on their future.

2. Getting beat bad early in the season by LSU or Alabama takes away any enthusiasm about our program and hurts our recruiting & attendance. It does help LSU & Alabama recruit Texas talent. According to Rivals we signed 5 three star recruits this year while Tx St signed 11 three star recruits. Beating Tx St or UTSA would help us build a record and it might help our recruiting as we tend to go after the same type of players.

3. We need local rivals that will play home & home games. They will help to fill our stadium. From where I sat at the last home game, the stadium look nearly empty. How did it look from your seat?

4. We need to establish a winning tradition. It won't happen playing LSU, Alabama, or UT right now.

Boise built a winning program first and then pointed at one or two tough games a year.

[Green Mean]

1. UTSA home games averaged 35,521 last year. With a 4-6 record they still drew 32,369 their last home game playing Minot State. They have HOME games lined up with Arizona, Arizona State, Virginia, Kansas State, Rice, Houston, Baylor, and Oklahoma State. The Alamodome holds 65,000. They have a huge city behind them with no pro team to contend with. We have little if any impact on their future.

If these numbers are still a reality in years 3, 4, 5, 6 and beyond then by all means we can all personally vouch for UTSA getting in the alliance.

For me personally I'd rather have Tx State to be in our conference now than UTSA since they at least have a history and seem committed to athletics with their upgrades recently. On top of that they seem like the perfect and natural rivalry for us. Let UTSA face some lumps and hardships and experience a lot of beat downs and then invite them. They should pay their dues in my opinion.

[UNTLifer]

Face facts.

1. UTSA home games averaged 35,521 last year. With a 4-6 record they still drew 32,369 their last home game playing Minot State. They have HOME games lined up with Arizona, Arizona State, Virginia, Kansas State, Rice, Houston, Baylor, and Oklahoma State. The Alamodome holds 65,000. They have a huge city behind them with no pro team to contend with. We have little if any impact on their future.

Many of these tickets were purchased and given away by Red McCombs. As Green Mean stated, if they are still drawing these numbers in a couple of years, then let them move up. If all of those home games stick, they will get hammered, and let's see what that does to the enthusiasm of their fans. Playing Minot State and Bacone will be a little different than playing true D1 programs.

Edited April 16, 2012 by UNTLifer

[Eastwood Eagle]

Face facts.

1. UTSA home games averaged 35,521 last year. With a 4-6 record they still drew 32,369 their last home game playing Minot State. They have HOME games lined up with Arizona, Arizona State, Virginia, Kansas State, Rice, Houston, Baylor, and Oklahoma State. The Alamodome holds 65,000. They have a huge city behind them with no pro team to contend with. We have little if any impact on their future.

2. Getting beat bad early in the season by LSU or Alabama takes away any enthusiasm about our program and hurts our recruiting & attendance. It does help LSU & Alabama recruit Texas talent. According to Rivals we signed 5 three star recruits this year while Tx St signed 11 three star recruits. Beating Tx St or UTSA would help us build a record and it might help our recruiting as we tend to go after the same type of players.

3. We need local rivals that will play home & home games. They will help to fill our stadium. From where I sat at the last home game, the stadium look nearly empty. How did it look from your seat?

4. We need to establish a winning tradition. It won't happen playing LSU, Alabama, or UT right now.

Boise built a winning program first and then pointed at one or two tough games a year.

+1

[untjim1995]

We used to call it "let them pay their dues." All this will have become too easy for UTSA and TSU even with their getting in the Sun Belt Conference (which is expected)--yet --both athletic programs who have yet to play one game as an FBS classified school.

It's for damn sure La Tech and UNT have had to pay their dues and probably even moreso for UNT since we were playing at what was called the NCAA's highest level in the 1950's and even with UNT's Times' All American Abner Hayne-led Sun Bowl team in that decade.

Post-Hayden Fry Era, I wouldn't wish on our worst enemy (if we had one) the roller coaster ride our athletic program has been on tagging onto that 12 humiliating "de-frocked" years as the NCAA's version of the red-headed step-child--that is, 1-AA classification. Our Young Gun Alums will never meet many of the alums who threw their hands up with our school when we went down a classification level; that is, those now lost alums who gave up on the non-direction our then UNT administration gave us. We did receive much in the area of lip-service, though.

During our walk in the wildnerness of (uninterested in athletics) UNT leadership plus the non-stop comedy of athletic department hiring errors none of whom our major varsity sports coaches left Denton with over .500 won/loss records. Then too many of our alums began to accept mediocrity and competing "only" in the Bottom 25 with a few successful years at that level as the expected norm in Denton and quite frankly...... if not for the booster shot that Apogee Stadium gave us I'm not sure we would still be operating in that mode of accepting just about anything dished out to us.

Apogee Stadium is a true, legitimate NCAA D1 facility, but North Texas powers that be will still need to hire more legit D1 personnel (with a D1 mind-set) from top to bottom in the athletic department to keep Apogee from becoming a Hollywood'esque mansion inhibited by the equivalent of the Beverly HIllbillies (w/o the Texas tea). Just sayin' ...

GMG!

To me, if UTSA moves up to the Alliance, this is just more proof at how lacksadaisical our leadership was at North Texas for the better part of forever. Basically, we match every advantage that UTSA offers--location and academics, and then trump them with history and on-campus facilites. But, because our leadership looked at athletics so lowly for so long, they gave schools like UTSA the blueprint on how not to run an athletic program. UTSA basically decided that they were going to play football, so they hired a named coach with skins on the wall, figured out to involve local business and local citizenry into the program, and then went out and got their games on a TV outlet (the LHN) that may not be well-known, but it helped the golden goose of the state to boost their fledgling network, which will probably pay great dividends to UTSA down the road with funding and scheduling from their friends in Austin. Literally, even when we look at the move from 1-aa to 1-a back in 1995 and then examine our total stretch of being a present-day FBS program, this is what we did: 1.) Add 10000 aluminum seats that were approximately a mile and a half aways from the field to get over 30000. 2.)Schedule every body bag game opponent possible to fund the ENTIRE athletic department without really trying to tap into the local community for direction or support with any success. 3.) Hire no-name HFCs with absolutely no skins on the wall, who either quickly or eventually fell on their faces. 4.) Join a league with absolutely no one in-state to build a rivalry (create interest) with or play conference games against anyone that people have heard of or care about.

If UTSA manages to get into the Alliance, it will be because they did everything right in selling their program to others, while we literally made the wrong choice on every single move involving our football program from 1978 until we finally got our stadium funding approved and then finally hired a coach who had accomplished something before he got here. From Fry to McCarney, from Fouts to Apogee, and from 1-a to 1-aa to 1-a, we created our own situation. UTSA, has been fortunate enough not to make poor decisions, so far. Give them credit for using their davantages to their benefit and making choices that appeal to others (conferences, networks, fans, recruits, etc...). Their leap forward, while amazingly irritating to most of us, is a testament to how an athletic department should be run. Its why they won't have to "pay their dues" for 50 years, unlike another Texas school that we are all very familar with.

Edited April 16, 2012 by untjim1995

[rjmunthe]

How are we defining this so called leap forward? I seriously doubt UTSA will get in. It will absolutely ruin the Alliance, especially if they want to get an AQ. We will lose the prestige of moving up, too. It's a joke and not a bright idea. They had good attendance, yeah, true. Can't fight that. But seriously, for example, give UTA a team. Throw them in Cowboys Stadium, nearly giving away tickets. People would go just to see the Death Star. It won't last. Seriously. They'll be bottom dwellers for years. Furthermore, 3-star recruits...whoop-de-do. Congrats to TSSM.

Edited April 16, 2012 by rjmunthe

[Baby Arm!]

Unlike most (if not all) of the posters on this thread, I have actually been to a UTSA and Tx State football games last season.

From first hand experience I can honestly state that UTSA has done a GREAT job in a very short time. I don't get the 'pay your dues' crowd. Why wait? UTSA provides a good game experience for us fans, Lots to do before and after the games, they have a lock on the corporate money in town and they do have good local support. Alamodome is a good venue for the fans. Good concessions, wide concourses, good sightlines. Parking? More on that to come...

On the down side....If you are looking for a traditional college football experience than skip the Alamodome. Roadrunner games have a very Pro Game feel. EVERYTHING is sponsored, every break in action is taken up with the "Insert Sponsor name here- gimmick/contest" There is a marching band but other than marching in and halftime, I never heard them during the game.

Tailgating: They have a good tailgate scene in the parking lots. Problem is that ALL of the Alamodome parking is reserved for season ticket holders. Others have to find parking somewhere downtown on the other side of the interstate. (this is a much further trek than our setup on campus) The do set aside some areas for student tailgates. It will be interesting if they will do the same for visiting fans. If not, visiting tailgate parties would suck.

Attendance: While posting impressive numbers during it's first game and throughout the season, the 'announced' attendance at each game included a lot of tickets bought by corporate sponsors and KFC giveaways. Remember that announced attendance is tickets sold, not butts in seats. (In UTSA defense everyone including us counts attendance this way). I was at the final game of the season. UTSA had a losing record, playing a NAIA team from South Dakota that NOBODY cares about. Although the actual attendence wasnt the announced 32k, it was still an impressive crowd. It was a crowd size anyone of us would be very happy to see at Apogee.

In the end, I say UTSA should be included (after we accept our invitation) in the Alliance. They are a growing school in a growing market. The Alliance should take them while it can. What's more important in expansion? The past 50 years or the next 50 years???

[MeanMag]

There's nothing that says we can't wait. If we are in this new conference, and something tells me we are, our tv package is going to be better than the sunbelt. So whichever one of these schools can deliver the most market share, should be the next one in. If they can deliver a bowl game, even better.

Utsa is probably the only real choice. Hell, I'd rather drive to San Antonio or San Marcus than el paso.

Edited April 17, 2012 by MeanMag

[SilverEagle]

Unlike most (if not all) of the posters on this thread, I have actually been to a UTSA and Tx State football games last season.

From first hand experience I can honestly state that UTSA has done a GREAT job in a very short time. I don't get the 'pay your dues' crowd. Why wait? UTSA provides a good game experience for us fans, Lots to do before and after the games, they have a lock on the corporate money in town and they do have good local support. Alamodome is a good venue for the fans. Good concessions, wide concourses, good sightlines. Parking? More on that to come...

On the down side....If you are looking for a traditional college football experience than skip the Alamodome. Roadrunner games have a very Pro Game feel. EVERYTHING is sponsored, every break in action is taken up with the "Insert Sponsor name here- gimmick/contest" There is a marching band but other than marching in and halftime, I never heard them during the game.

Tailgating: They have a good tailgate scene in the parking lots. Problem is that ALL of the Alamodome parking is reserved for season ticket holders. Others have to find parking somewhere downtown on the other side of the interstate. (this is a much further trek than our setup on campus) The do set aside some areas for student tailgates. It will be interesting if they will do the same for visiting fans. If not, visiting tailgate parties would suck.

Attendance: While posting impressive numbers during it's first game and throughout the season, the 'announced' attendance at each game included a lot of tickets bought by corporate sponsors and KFC giveaways. Remember that announced attendance is tickets sold, not butts in seats. (In UTSA defense everyone including us counts attendance this way). I was at the final game of the season. UTSA had a losing record, playing a NAIA team from South Dakota that NOBODY cares about. Although the actual attendence wasnt the announced 32k, it was still an impressive crowd. It was a crowd size anyone of us would be very happy to see at Apogee.

In the end, I say UTSA should be included (after we accept our invitation) in the Alliance. They are a growing school in a growing market. The Alliance should take them while it can. What's more important in expansion? The past 50 years or the next 50 years???

....and your Texas State game experience?

[MeanGreenTexan]

....and your Texas State game experience?

Right. Please compare pros-cons.

[Baby Arm!]

I left off the Texas State experience because its really an incomplete grade. The experience next year from last promises to be much differnt but since you asked her it is:

San Marcos is a small college town and a game here provides much more of the traditional college football experience. Outdoor stadium, on campus, Marching band, dance team, etc. However I have to give them an incomplete grade. I went to a game prior to the current endzone construction that is on going right now. The game reminded me of our Southland days because Tx State was still was Southland football last year Once they enclose the end of the stadium and make a horseshoe, start playing DI/WAC I think it will be much different.

Attendance: They arent giving away tickets here and you dont have the corporate block buying either. Id say attendance was around 12-13k when I was there. Not bad for a stadium that only seats 16k at the time. It will be interesting when the stadium seats 30k next season

Stadium: Concessions, standard stadium fare nothing exceptional, but again after the expansion it may be much different.

Parking: There isn't much parking around the stadium and what there is is reserved for Donors and Students. I happened to go with a donor so parking wasnt an issue. I dont know where they plan on putting single game/visitor parking but there is on campus parking and a easy walk accross a campus like Tx State never sucks. Tailgating under a shade tree on campus beats some random parking lot in downtown San Antonio! There is a golf course accross the street from the stadium and I hear there is talk of allowing game day parking/tailgating on the fairways.

Stuff to do before/after game: While not as many options as San Antonio, San Marcos offers some options. It's a lot like Denton in a college town with some bars and restaurants on The Square, There is always the Outlet Malls on 35 for shopping, You could always float the river in SM or come to my town 15 minutes away (New Braunfels). If you are looking for more both San Antonio and Austin are a short drive away.

Overall, Id be happy with either (or both) Tx State or UTSA as conference mates. Tx State provides a more traditional college experience but UTSA has more potential due to it location and market.

[rjmunthe]

Unlike most (if not all) of the posters on this thread, I have actually been to a UTSA and Tx State football games last season.

From first hand experience I can honestly state that UTSA has done a GREAT job in a very short time. I don't get the 'pay your dues' crowd. Why wait? UTSA provides a good game experience for us fans, Lots to do before and after the games, they have a lock on the corporate money in town and they do have good local support. Alamodome is a good venue for the fans. Good concessions, wide concourses, good sightlines. Parking? More on that to come... Debatable. I think the Alamodome is a dump as well as quite dirty and outdated. Parking is brutal.

On the down side....If you are looking for a traditional college football experience than skip the Alamodome. Roadrunner games have a very Pro Game feel. EVERYTHING is sponsored, every break in action is taken up with the "Insert Sponsor name here- gimmick/contest" There is a marching band but other than marching in and halftime, I never heard them during the game. It's college, not pro. I've been to some great pro games (first Texans playoff game at Reliant) and been to some amazing college games (OSU vs Mich) as well as the Houston game here and I'd put both of those games on another level versus a pro game.

Tailgating: They have a good tailgate scene in the parking lots. Problem is that ALL of the Alamodome parking is reserved for season ticket holders. Others have to find parking somewhere downtown on the other side of the interstate. (this is a much further trek than our setup on campus) The do set aside some areas for student tailgates. It will be interesting if they will do the same for visiting fans. If not, visiting tailgate parties would suck. Exactly. Ruins the atmosphere.

Attendance: While posting impressive numbers during it's first game and throughout the season, the 'announced' attendance at each game included a lot of tickets bought by corporate sponsors and KFC giveaways. Remember that announced attendance is tickets sold, not butts in seats. (In UTSA defense everyone including us counts attendance this way). I was at the final game of the season. UTSA had a losing record, playing a NAIA team from South Dakota that NOBODY cares about. Although the actual attendence wasnt the announced 32k, it was still an impressive crowd. It was a crowd size anyone of us would be very happy to see at Apogee. It's quite obvious. I mean, they announced 32K but the actual attendance looked like 21-22K. We should do their numbers, imo. We don't announce our attendance that way. At the MTSU game, yeah. But the rest were incredibly spot on.

In the end, I say UTSA should be included (after we accept our invitation) in the Alliance. They are a growing school in a growing market. The Alliance should take them while it can. What's more important in expansion? The past 50 years or the next 50 years??? We don't need UTSA. They haven't developed the college football experience. I seriously doubt they get an invite.

Edited April 17, 2012 by rjmunthe

[TIgreen01]

Tailgating: They have a good tailgate scene in the parking lots. Problem is that ALL of the Alamodome parking is reserved for season ticket holders. Others have to find parking somewhere downtown on the other side of the interstate. (this is a much further trek than our setup on campus) The do set aside some areas for student tailgates. It will be interesting if they will do the same for visiting fans. If not, visiting tailgate parties would suck. Exactly. Ruins the atmosphere.

I don't know why you'd even bother tailgating...just hit the Riverwalk prior to and following the game. That's an awesome alternative to tailgating. Seems like a no brainer to me??

Edited April 18, 2012 by TIgreen01

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

I think we have some sore fans who don't like the johnny-come-latelys quickly getting to our level or surpassing us.

But, let's give due where we are to give due - their leadership has been better than ours. That's not their fault. Why wait and "pay your dues" if you have the drive and know-how to get it done quickly.

Respect them for what they do...especially if you are a Christian human:

"Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor." - Paul, Romans 13:7

[PlummMeanGreen]

I'm sorry but I see San Anton' much differently than a few of my fellow Mean Green elect.

I've lived in Honolulu, visited San Francisco when my sister and late brother-in law lived there, been to New Orleans (but couldn't be there on a NO's Bowl weeknight because of the nature of the sector of education I was in at the time, the day of the week of the game and the time of year it took place plus.......I am a non-flyer of airlines after a turbulent trip from DFW to Hobby many years ago)......

......but IMO San Antonio fits in with the 3 aforementioned locales as far as what some call one of the USA's mystique cities and that is probably because of the Alamo, other area Spanish missions, the Riverwalk with all the mariachi bands on the barges that troll that waterway coupled with all of the colorful display of lights at night (& doesn't matter to me what color the water of the SA river is--it was flowing there even when Travis, Crockett, Bowie and Company were walking the streets of SA ). Also, the Institue of Texas Culture museum located in Hemisfair Park.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjijoMMMadU&NR=1&feature=endscreen > > > >John Wayne's youngest daughter and a grandchild talk bout SA and the Alamo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_of_Texan_Cultures (Institute of Texas Culture; also an affiliate of the Smithsonian Affiliates program

http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/lkh01. (1968 Texas Hemisfair)

_______________________________________________________________

Still not sure all my SA Chamber of Commerce'esque bit above is reason for a one year start-up program to get into the Alliance at this time, but honest to goodness I would not complain if they got in.

And we've all stated our likes/dislikes for La Tech, but I would not have a problem being conference-mates with them, too--ever heard of the concept of... instant rivalry?

The Alliance presidents do have some tough decisions to make, but having a 24 team Alliance would probably solve 99% of them. Just sayin'...

GMG!

[Mean Green 93-98]

Respect them for what they do...especially if you are a Christian human:

"Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor." - Paul, Romans 13:7

That respect would come a whole lot easier if they proved something on the football field first, even if it's nothing more than the ability to compete with the lower echelon of 1-A ("FBS").

[casual fan]

Draw a 300 mile circle around Denton and look at ALL FBS schools in that area. Play any FBS school that will play us home and home games. We need to build rivalries. If they suck it will give us easy FBS wins that will help us build a winning record and go to a bowl every year. Wins will put excited fans in the stands. Wins against UTSA and Tx St are better than bad losses on the road at LSU and Alabama. Follow the lead of other schools that have stepped up to bigger conferences. They did not get there by playing 7 road game against the toughest schedule they could come up with. This isn't rocket science.

[TIgreen01]

Draw a 300 mile circle around Denton and look at ALL FBS schools in that area. Play any FBS school that will play us home and home games. We need to build rivalries. If they suck it will give us easy FBS wins that will help us build a winning record and go to a bowl every year. Wins will put excited fans in the stands. Wins against UTSA and Tx St are better than bad losses on the road at LSU and Alabama. Follow the lead of other schools that have stepped up to bigger conferences. They did not get there by playing 7 road game against the toughest schedule they could come up with. This isn't rocket science.

+ 1 million.

[rjmunthe]

The fact that UTSA is a garbage football team playing in a beat up off-campus stadium with no history and yet another hyphen school filled with full of UT fans makes me not want them in CUSA. Add the fact that there's no tailgating experience, and this is

[SilverEagle]

+ 1 million.

totally agree.

[foutsrouts]

I've done The Riverwalk, Sea World, and The Alamo more times in my life than I want to remember, but what's the big deal about The Riverwalk? To me it's nothing more than The West End with a Mexican flavor and a ditch in the backyard. It's Ok I guess, but I don't really get S.A. proper as a truly great travel destination unless you're an "out of stater" tourist type who has never been there before. I have always enjoyed the towns and outdoor activities available in the Hill Country to the west of town though.

[untjim1995]

Draw a 300 mile circle around Denton and look at ALL FBS schools in that area. Play any FBS school that will play us home and home games. We need to build rivalries. If they suck it will give us easy FBS wins that will help us build a winning record and go to a bowl every year. Wins will put excited fans in the stands. Wins against UTSA and Tx St are better than bad losses on the road at LSU and Alabama. Follow the lead of other schools that have stepped up to bigger conferences. They did not get there by playing 7 road game against the toughest schedule they could come up with. This isn't rocket science.

The biggest issue is the reliance on the bodybag game(s) to fund the athletic department. Id love to never play one of those games again, but I recognize that games against SBC/WAC/CUSA teams won't pay the bills alone. That's why I believe completely in playing a bodybag game that actually gives you a chance to avoid embarrassment. Don't play top southern teams in the SEC, Big XII, or ACC. Play the money game later in the year, if at all possible. If not, play Big Ten teams or Pac-12 teams at the beginning of the year.

Doing that would be light years better than what we have done and will continue to do for the years to come...

[casual fan]

I agree with you.(untjim1995) At least play body bag games later in the season. I think bad early losses may cost in the long run as it knocks down attendance for the rest of our home games. Also, an easier schedule might start a bowl run and all the excitement that goes with it. A few years down the road body bag games might become statement games. One step at a time.