Is this racist or not ?

[UNTflyer]

That is a very tough sell.. a 145 pound kid on top of a young 200 pound man who wants to be a cop... beating him up and this tough wanta-be cop is yelling help..... I don't buy it. Who is the supposedly witness... his cousin??

I had read that Martin wasn't a skrawny little kid, but a 6' 2" football player. All the pictures being shown on news sites are from when he was 12 years old.

Why is that?

Edited March 25, 2012 by UNTflyer

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

I had read that Zimmerman wasn't a skrawny little kid, but a 6' 2" football player. All the pictures being shown on news sites are from when he was 12 years old.

Why is that?

Zimmerman is the man that weighs 200+ lbs. and did the shooting .... he isn't the kid that was shot.. You must not be paying attention at all..

Read this:

Tracy Martin, the father of the slain teen, said police told him that Zimmerman's background was "squeaky clean." However, ABC News reported, public records show that Zimmerman was charged with battery against on officer and resisting arrest in 2005, a charge that was later "expunged" from his record. That allowed him to legally obtain the weapon he was carrying the night of the shooting.

Zimmerman, 28, is the focal point for national outrage over the fatal Feb. 26 shooting of an unarmed teen, Trayvon Martin. The 17-year-old was returning from a sugar run -- he'd bought a bag of Skittles and an iced tea at a local convenience store -- and was reportedly talking on a cellphone to his girlfriend when he crossed paths with Zimmerman..

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-20120320,0,1508238.story

..

Edited March 25, 2012 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[rcade]

I had read that Zimmerman wasn't a skrawny little kid, but a 6' 2" football player. All the pictures being shown on news sites are from when he was 12 years old.

He was 6-foot-2 and only 140 pounds. His nickname was Slim. The photo of him in the hoodie is most current.

He was the kind of kid who played Little League baseball through his childhood, then when he was too old to play stuck around as a volunteer running the concession stand.

He never had any trouble with the law and pulled his dad out of a fire when he was nine years old.

[Rudy]

Tracy Martin, the father of the slain teen, said police told him that Zimmerman's background was "squeaky clean." However, ABC News reported, public records show that Zimmerman was charged with battery against on officer and resisting arrest in 2005, a charge that was later "expunged" from his record. That allowed him to legally obtain the weapon he was carrying the night of the shooting.

When the officer told Tracy Martin that, he may not have known about the arrest at the time. Since the charge was later expunged technically his record was "clean". It's not necessarily a matter of the officer lying to him or anything of that nature.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Rudy

[UNT90]

You're not holding Zimmerman to that standard. What's taking him so long to talk to the media?

Audio of the girlfriend describing the call to Trayvon has been released to the media and she'll testify in court.

You don't get my point. The girl is ONLY talking to the media and the family lawyers, and came forward way late in the process.

See a problem?

It doesn't bother you at all that she won't speak with police investigating the case? That she came forward only after this was a big media event? Have her attorneys (cause she has them, you know, because when you are strictlty a witness, you need attorneys, right?) released her telephone records so the times of the calls between she and Martin can be compared to the Zimmerman 911 call? I haven't seen such a document. You can bet the police have those documents.

You gotta be kifdding about Zimmerman talking to the media, right? The guy, right or wrong, has been villifed by the media. He is also facing possible criminal charges. Why on earth would he say one word to the media?

Is that what we do now? Decide who is innocent or guilty by their appearance in front of the media?

Edited March 25, 2012 by UNT90

[UNT90]

And now, a witness says Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating him.

http://www.myfoxtamp...merman-03232012

Yep. So it wasn't Martin yelling help like so many of you people wanted to ASSUME, it was Zimmerman. Martin was on top of Zimmerman and was beating him, Zimmerman wasn't standing over Martin, killing him as he begged for his life, again like many were quick to ASSUME.

But some just jump to conclusions because they have all the answers when the only "facts" they know are what the media presents (which are rarely correct).

The key question is what led up to the point of the altercation? Was Zimmerman really headed back to his truck? Should be easy enough for police to figure out by listening to Zimmerman's fairly detailed description of where he was at when the 911 call concluded, where the altercation scene was located, and where Zimmerman's vehicle was located at the scene.

What if he was walking back to his car (A DETAIL WE DON"T KNOW, BUT THE POLICE MOST LIKELY DO)?

Does that change things for anyone?

Or do we lock him away for murder because he is a police officer wanna be who got in over his head?

Are we still in full lynch mob mode?

[Coffee and TV]

And now, a witness says Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating him.

http://www.myfoxtamp...merman-03232012

Like I said in another thread, don't chase down and provoke someone minding his own business, and you wouldn't be getting your ass kicked in the first place.

[Rudy]

Like I said in another thread, don't chase down and provoke someone minding his own business, and you wouldn't be getting your ass kicked in the first place.

I agree with you 100% on not provoking someone who isn't doing anything wrong. However, I think there are still too many unanswered questions to determine exactly how everything played out. Thre are reports that he chased him and Trayvon confronted him, and there are reports that Zimmerman was going back to his SUV and was attacked. Unfortunately, the public has not been able to get an unbiased report of the events and we are not privy to the details of a police investigation.

[UNT90]

Moving the goalposts as I expected. It was fairly evident from the beginning that this was a racially motivated, completely unnecessary killing, and the police did a crummy job investigating. But you kept begging for people not to jump to conclusions. Now that more facts are out and its pretty apparent that it wasn't self-defense, you label everyone else as an angry mob who simply wants to dish out vigilante justice.

Like I said in another thread, don't chase down and provoke someone minding his own business, and you wouldn't be getting your ass kicked in the first place.

Goalpost moving at it's finest.

I salute you, sir.

[rcade]

You don't get my point. The girl is ONLY talking to the media and the family lawyers, and came forward way late in the process. ...

Is that what we do now? Decide who is innocent or guilty by their appearance in front of the media?

You're the one judging Martin's girlfriend negatively because she hasn't talked to the media.

She came forward after Martin's dad thought to check his phone records to see who he communicated with that night.

The Sanford police, in their joke of an investigation, never checked them.

[rcade]

Yep. So it wasn't Martin yelling help like so many of you people wanted to ASSUME, it was Zimmerman. Martin was on top of Zimmerman and was beating him, Zimmerman wasn't standing over Martin, killing him as he begged for his life, again like many were quick to ASSUME.

Look how quickly you believe someone who is hiding his name and face while talking to one TV station.

Three witnesses said the person crying for help was Martin.

[rcade]

I agree with you 100% on not provoking someone who isn't doing anything wrong. However, I think there are still too many unanswered questions to determine exactly how everything played out. Thre are reports that he chased him and Trayvon confronted him, and there are reports that Zimmerman was going back to his SUV and was attacked. Unfortunately, the public has not been able to get an unbiased report of the events and we are not privy to the details of a police investigation.

If the Sanford police had fully investigated the shooting that night, instead of acting from the presumption that George Zimmerman was telling the truth, we could have more confidence in knowing what happened.

We do know that Trayvon Martin was unarmed and had a legal right to be where he was walking when he was shot to death. We also know that Zimmerman was told not to chase down Martin by police, and that Neighborhood Watch volunteers are told never to chase people or carry guns.

Even if we find out that Martin fought with Zimmerman, he had the right to defend himself too. He was being followed by an adult acting weird and carrying a gun.

[UNT90]

Look how quickly you believe someone who is hiding his name and face while talking to one TV station.

Three witnesses said the person crying for help was Martin.

Really? A guy who knows neither party and actually saw Zimmerman crying for help. Saw him, on the ground underneath Martin, crying for help, yet you want to believe everyone with a stake in the outcome over a guy who doesn't know either party?

The fact that the guy isn't in front of the media begging for air time makes him even more believable.

[Rudy]

We do know that Trayvon Martin was unarmed and had a legal right to be where he was walking when he was shot to death. We also know that Zimmerman was told not to chase down Martin by police, and that Neighborhood Watch volunteers are told never to chase people or carry guns.

An interesting conversation with a dispatcher brought up a valid point. Dispatchers do not TELL people what to do, for liability reasons. What the dispatcher said was "We don't need you to do that (follow him)." Now, the smart thing to do would have been to follow that advice. However, legally, he did not disobey police orders or lawful commands. I will copy and paste that post fro a dispatcher shortly, so give me a second.

As for the gun. HE WAS LEGALLY CARRYING IT. I honestly do not see why that is so hard to understand. It is not law that neighborhood watch memers do not carry weapons. According to the police, Zimmerman was on his way the the store, in his personal vehicle, when he observed Martin.

I know it will come across that I am defending Zimmerman. But what I am trying to do is seperate all of the different issues that are being clouded together. And as for the investigation. There has been one all along. I know that many think there hasn't been one, or that it's been a joke of an investigation, but that is only because we are not privy to the information of an ongoing investigation. The findings will be, if they haven't already been, turned over to the DA's office and this will likely be presented before a grand jury who will decided whether or not to indict.

Here is another thing that I heard. The New Black Panther Party has offered a $10k reward for the "capture" of Zimmerman. I would hope that everyone would have a problem with that.

[UNT90]

You're the one judging Martin's girlfriend negatively because she hasn't talked to the media.

She came forward after Martin's dad thought to check his phone records to see who he communicated with that night.

The Sanford police, in their joke of an investigation, never checked them.

I'm not judging Martin's girlfriend (especially for not talking to the media). I am saying that she supposedly is 1) Martin's girlfriend 2) was on the phone with Martin immediately before the shooting took place 3) knew Martin was shot and killed by the man Martin told her was following him 4) chose not to come forward for almost a month with this information 5) when she does come forward, she only shares this information with Martin family attorneys 6) will not meet with police to aid in the investigation and answer questions. 7) Has a precrafted statement given to the media by her attorneys.

Can you not see the need to ask this girl some serious questions about that call and her timeline of the call?

Have you seen the phone records? Do you know that the time she was on the phone with Martin was the exact time of Zimmerman's altercatrion with Martin? Details, my friend, details. They are kinda important.

And again, why is she refusing to meet with police?

There are zero consequences for lying to the media. There are legal consequences for lying to police during this type of investigation. Something to remember.

Edited March 25, 2012 by UNT90

[Green P1]

Really? A guy who knows neither party and actually saw Zimmerman crying for help. Saw him, on the ground underneath Martin, crying for help, yet you want to believe everyone with a stake in the outcome over a guy who doesn't know either party?

I have a hard time believing the 200+ pound meathead who chased down the 140 pound twig ended up being held down and beaten.

[Rudy]

Here is a post from another board which offers some information to consider:

Regarding the questions that arose a few pages back about the dispatcher's actions:

The dispatcher told Zimmerman they didn't need him to follow the "suspect." That wasn't an order, that was a suggestion. As a dispatcher, as I'm sure many of you know, can be help accountable for what they say and don't say. If the dispatcher had ordered Zimmerman to leave Martin alone, and Martin was, in fact, a criminal looking to commit a burglary, and Martin succeeded in breaking into a house and killing someone, then the dispatcher would be held accountable because they actually called off the person that was following the original suspect who could have intervened. However, if the dispatcher tells Zimmerman to keep an eye on Martin until police arrive so they know his location, well, you can see how that results.

Kind of like if someone is in a car broken down on the side of the road and they ask if they should stay in the car. They exit the car and get hit by a truck. They stay in the car, the car gets hit, and they get killed because they were still in the car. It's a lose/lose all the way around. The dispatcher, by saying "we don't need you to follow him," gave advice and took the liability off of themselves by following protocol (i.e. "you do what makes you feel safe.") because they weren't there and only had a very minute picture of the incident.

For some reason, dispatchers are expected to know EVERYTHING, including what happened that they weren't told, what didn't happen, as well as taking the heat for bad decisions (by way of MMQB) of both callers and responders.

All that being said, if Zimmerman had an ounce of intelligence, he would have simply sat back and kept an eye on the suspect to see if he actually committed any crimes - that way he could be a good witness and point out the offender to the police. However, he didn't. He chose to act well above and beyond what is expected of a neighborhood watch member just because Martin was running (not a crime) towards the exit to the community. Someone is now dead for committing the "crime" of trespassing on Zimmerman's ground. Zimmerman belongs in prison. Just my .02....

Edited March 25, 2012 by Rudy

[Rudy]

I have a hard time believing the 200+ pound meathead who chased down the 140 pound twig ended up being held down and beaten.

Well, 200lbs doesn't mean he was 200lbs of muscle. From his picture, he doesnt exactly look like he's built like a brick. And Martin was a high school football player, so in decent shape, at the very least. I don't recall seeing any 17 year old football players that are "twigs". And even if he was a "twig" as I stated before, who can tell someone is not an expeerience martial artist?

[UNT90]

If the Sanford police had fully investigated the shooting that night, instead of acting from the presumption that George Zimmerman was telling the truth, we could have more confidence in knowing what happened.

We do know that Trayvon Martin was unarmed and had a legal right to be where he was walking when he was shot to death. We also know that Zimmerman was told not to chase down Martin by police, and that Neighborhood Watch volunteers are told never to chase people or carry guns.

Even if we find out that Martin fought with Zimmerman, he had the right to defend himself too. He was being followed by an adult acting weird and carrying a gun.

Have you seen the freaking police investigation? You ASSUME the investigation is bad without knowing one fact of that investigation. Why? Because it doesn't give you what you want.

Could there be problems in the investigation? Yes. Is this a certainty? No. Could a good investigation have been done that produced no probable cause to arrest Zimmerman? Yep.

What if the police have Martin's cell phone (highly probable). What if the time of the girlfriend's call ended 5 minutes before Zimmerman contacted 911? That would mean the girlfriend has no idea how the altercation occurred. Again, these are what ifs, and the point is we just don't know.

You need to remember that the DA's office also looked at the investigation. If more needed to be done, they would have told the investigators to do it. That seperate government entity also concluded that no charges should be filed.

Please answer this: What if the special prosecutor now assigned says that no criminal charges should be filed? Will you accept that? Will 3 diffferent investigaive reviews be enough for you?

Edited March 25, 2012 by UNT90

[UNT90]

I have a hard time believing the 200+ pound meathead who chased down the 140 pound twig ended up being held down and beaten.

Funny, you don't have a hard time believing that a 200lb meathead can chase down a 140 high school athlete.

Interesting, don't you think?

[Green P1]

Funny, you don't have a hard time believing that a 200lb meathead can chase down a 140 high school athlete.

Interesting, don't you think?

Not if you assume the kid didn't run.

[UNT90]

Not if you assume the kid didn't run.

There is that word again.

Or we could ASSUME that Zimmerman didn't fight?

[rcade]

As for the gun. HE WAS LEGALLY CARRYING IT. I honestly do not see why that is so hard to understand.

I find it extremely hard to understand why he needed to be carrying a concealed handgun. Do you need a gun to drive around your gated neighborhood or make a run to the store?

[Green P1]

There is that word again.

Or we could ASSUME that Zimmerman didn't fight?

Right. He just shot a kid in the chest. No need for fighting!

[UNT90]

Right. He just shot a kid in the chest. No need for fighting!

Maybe we can ASSUME he was just a really good runner and not a very good fighter?