Is this racist or not ?

[forevereagle]

Is there a link to that admission? That is differenet news than what has been reported the last few weeks.

From what I have heard, Zimmerman basically "stalked" the kid. Didn't Zimmerman continue following him after a 911 operator told him to stop? Maybe I don't understand enough about the Florida "Stand Your Ground" law but this sounds like cold blooded murder.

No, he most certainly admitted shooting Martin. If the shooting was in self defense, as Zimmerman claims, then he is not guilty of anything, and the shooting is justified.

You seem to indicate a presumption of guilt, which isn't the case.

He is guilty of the act, yet to be seen if he is guilty of a crime.

[UNT90]

He is guilty of the act, yet to be seen if he is guilty of a crime.

Kinda parsing words, but the way the law is written, if he truly fired in self defense, then there is no act on which to attach guilt.

With your avatar, you should definitely post in this forum more often. Very aprapo.

Edited March 27, 2012 by UNT90

[forevereagle]

Kinda parsing words, but the way the law is written, if he truly fired in self defense, then there is no act on which to attach guilt.

Well, I am thinking of the word more in terms of responsibility than in the legal sense. He did commit the act, no real debate there. Part of me would like to see the evidence presented in a court of law to finally determine the facts of the case and if a crime was committed, but the other part of me wonders if he could receive a fair trial at this point. There is a lot being said in this whole case, but I am not certain what is true and what is not. The tapes don't necessarily indicate what happened and the conversations that would provide more clarity were not recorded. This whole thing is a mess.

With your avatar, you should definitely post in this forum more often. Very aprapo.

My avatar exists because of this forum. I am a reader, but not a typical poster. I just don't keep up with a lot of what is discussed enough to argue well one way or another. I offer a question here and there, but typically get blasted for it. Hence, my avatar.

Edited March 27, 2012 by forevereagle

[rcade]

The lead homicide investigator in Trayvon Martin's shooting filed an affadavit saying he was "unconvinced" of George Zimmerman's version of events and thought he should be charged with manslaughter the night of the shooting, ABC News reports.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-investigator-wanted-charge-george-zimmerman-manslaughter/story?id=16011674#.T3IWaDGWeFl

[Cr1028]

Again, why does the picture the media uses matter one bit in what happened that night?

It doesn't affect what happened that night but it can affect someone's emotions and point of view when reading a story.

The killing of a child creates stronger emotions than the killing of a grown man. Children are seen a pure and defenseless. He is just pointing out they have a particular story to tell that incites strong feelings in the public.

This is also likely the reason they use the mugshot for Zimmerman instead of a driver's license photo or something off his facebook page. People have a stronger negative perception of people in mugshots than they do people in just standard photos that anyone would have.

They are just trying to sell newspapers, advertising, and create webhits. They are doing their job, for better or worse.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Cr1028

[UNT90]

The lead homicide investigator in Trayvon Martin's shooting filed an affadavit saying he was "unconvinced" of George Zimmerman's version of events and thought he should be charged with manslaughter the night of the shooting, ABC News reports.

http://abcnews.go.co...74#.T3IWaDGWeFl

Again, kind need to know why the lead homicide detective was unconvinced it was self defense and why the D.A.'s Office did not want an arrest.

I would ASSUME the D.A.'s office either wanted more investigation done on the case before an arrest or simply had a better understanding of Florida law than the investigator. But, that is an ASSUMPTION. We don't know and won't know until the investigation is complete and this goes before a grand jury.

Kinda odd to want to charge Zimmerman right away, instead of completing the investigation, but maybe the detective felt he had enough. Time will tell.

[UNT90]

Well, I am thinking of the word more in terms of responsibility than in the legal sense. He did commit the act, no real debate there. Part of me would like to see the evidence presented in a court of law to finally determine the facts of the case and if a crime was committed, but the other part of me wonders if he could receive a fair trial at this point. There is a lot being said in this whole case, but I am not certain what is true and what is not. The tapes don't necessarily indicate what happened and the conversations that would provide more clarity were not recorded. This whole thing is a mess.

To go to a trial, ZImmerman would have to be arrested, which wuold mean a permanent mark on his criminal history for murder or manslaughter. It will go before a grand jury, made up of private citizens, who will review the facts and decide whether an indictment is warranted or not.

In Texas, all Grand Jury actions are private by law, meaning none of the testimony or evidence presented can be released to the public (read: media). I don't know if Florida has the same restrictions, but I would bet that they do. This serves to ensure grand jury members do not fell public pressure to make a decision one way or the other, and that they remain annonymous in decisions that they make.

I really can't think of a better use for a Grand Jury than this case.

Edited March 27, 2012 by UNT90

[forevereagle]

To go to a trial, ZImmerman would have to be arrested, which wuold mean a permanent mark on his criminal history for murder or manslaughter. It will go before a grand jury, made up of private citizens, who will review the facts and decide whether an indictment is warranted or not.

In Texas, all Grand Jury actions are private by law, meaning none of the testimony or evidence presented can be released to the public (read: media). I don't know if Florida has the same restrictions, but I would bet that they do. This serves to ensure grand jury members do not fell public pressure to make a decision one way or the other, and that they remain annonymous in decisions that they make.

I really can't think of a better use for a Grand Jury than this case.

Agreed, Grand Jury seems like the way to go. Let them consider the facts and make a call on whether a trial is needed (that was kind of what I was getting at, but didn't state very well). I think that would be the best service of justice here.

[UNT90]

From what I have heard, Zimmerman basically "stalked" the kid. Didn't Zimmerman continue following him after a 911 operator told him to stop? Maybe I don't understand enough about the Florida "Stand Your Ground" law but this sounds like cold blooded murder.

There is no evidence that Zimmerman followed the kid after being told not to by police. Could he have? Absolutely. Did he? No one knows. Those that say different have an agenda.

Listen to the 911 recording. Shortly after being asked not to follow, Zimmerman says he doesn't see Martin anymore. Did he stop? Did he continue to search? We don't know. Period.

[UNT90]

The original investigations weren't very thorough, actually. I'll accept it in as much as that's the findings, but with the assumption that not all the questions are answered because the only other true witness is dead. I "accept" that OJ was found not guilty, I don't accept that he didn't kill his ex-wife.

Again, how can you say the original investigation wasn't thorough when you have no idea what was done in that investigation? Madness!!!

Your O.J. analogy doesn't quite work here. You got to see all the evidence through a televised trial to make that determination. Here, you are just deciding on assumptions and stereotypes.

Kind of a big difference, don't you think?

[GreenBat]

I have no problem with this going to a Grand Jury. The problem I had/have is a life was taken and there was no investigation.

[UNT90]

I have no problem with this going to a Grand Jury. The problem I had/have is a life was taken and there was no investigation.

Jeez. There absolutely WAS an investigation. One that was reviewed by the D.A's Office, a seperate government entity than the police, after going through a thorough in house review in the police department. This is the biggest fallacy out there. The police and the D.A.'s office don't present their investigation to the media. That's not the way it works. The fact that so little has been leaked about the investigation is a credit to the professionalism of the police department and D.A's office in Florida, who have made the extremely principled and brave decision not to try this case in the press, a decision the Martin family obviously chose not to make.

The police chief also readily agreed to state and federal investigators review every document in the investigation. I believe his quote was something along the lines of "not only what we did in the investigation, but how and why we did it."

Again, these facts don't sell newspapers. After all which headline moves more copy: "Police Investigating shooting where self defense is claimed" or "Unarmed black teen shot in cold blood by white neighbor." Ya, I know Zimmerman is half hispanic, but that just wouldn't work as well in the initial headline, now would it.

Edited March 27, 2012 by UNT90

[UNT90]

For those interest in hearing both sides of the story

"According to what Zimmerman told local officers, he lost sight of the teen and was returning to his SUV when Martin approached him and they exchanged words. He said Martin asked if he had a problem, Zimmerman replied no and reached for his cell phone. He then alleges that Martin said "well you do now" and punched him in the nose."

"Zimmerman said he then fell to the ground and Martin got on top of him and began slamming his head into the sidewalk. Zimmerman said he began yelling for help.""An individual can be heard screaming on the 911 audio, however, there's been a dispute amongst witnesses as to whether it was Zimmerman or Martin who was crying for help."

"According to authorities, Zimmerman then shot Martin at close range. When the local police arrived at the scene, they found Zimmerman with a bloody nose, swollen lip and lacerations in the back of his head. Although paramedics gave him first aid, he said he did not need to go to the hospital and sought medical treatment the next day."

A couple of thoughts. You can clearly hear Zimmerman tell dispatchers that he has lost sight of Martin on the 911 tape, which jives with his account of events. If this is the first and only account of events Zimmerman has given (no changing of stories), then the odds are better than not that he is telling the truth. Otherwise, you would have to believe that after a traumatic encounter with Martin (whichever way you believe it happened), Zimmerman had the mental ability to remember telling the dispatcher that he had lost sight of Martin and construct a lie around that previous statement. But not just any lie, a lie that apparently matches up with crime scene evidence.

Remember the detailed description that Zimmerman gave on the 911 tpe about where he was? Again, the location of the shooting would have to match up with his story. Do we absolutely know this is the case? No. But if it wasn't, I would bet Zimmerman would be sitting in jail right now.

[NT03]

Remember the day when 2 men could fight each other with just their fist & be done with it ??

[UNT90]

Remember the day when 2 men could fight each other with just their fist & be done with it ??

I think that went out of style about the same time as Disco, unfortunately.

[rcade]

The fact that so little has been leaked about the investigation is a credit to the professionalism of the police department and D.A's office in Florida, who have made the extremely principled and brave decision not to try this case in the press, a decision the Martin family obviously chose not to make.

The Martin family went to the press because the police were doing nothing to seriously investigate their son's killing.

The Sanford police never contacted the girl Martin was talking to on the phone when the incident occurred.

They ignored several witnesses and failed to follow up with others.

They corrected one witness, telling her the person she heard crying out was Zimmerman, not Martin as she told them.

They never heard the possible racial slur Zimmerman muttered on the 911 call.

They let Martin lie in the morgue three days as a "John Doe," even though he died 70 yards from his dad's house.

And you're praising their professionalism. The only worse cop involved in this tragedy than the Sanford police is the pretend cop who patrolled his neighborhood with a gun looking for scary black people.

Edited March 28, 2012 by rcade

[yyz28]

we'll see when we see all the facts. We're all guessing on what the facts are and then drawing conclusions.

[UNT90]

The Martin family went to the press because the police were doing nothing to seriously investigate their son's killing.

The Sanford police never contacted the girl Martin was talking to on the phone when the incident occurred.

They ignored several witnesses and failed to follow up with others.

They corrected one witness, telling her the person she heard crying out was Zimmerman, not Martin as she told them.

They never heard the possible racial slur Zimmerman muttered on the 911 call.

They let Martin lie in the morgue three days as a "John Doe," even though he died 70 yards from his dad's house.

And you're praising their professionalism. The only worse cop involved in this tragedy than the Sanford police is the pretend cop who patrolled his neighborhood with a gun looking for scary black people.

You really need to make up your mind. Several posts ago you were praising the original investigator at Sanford PD for wanting to arrest Zimmerman that night. Now, your saying he did a crappy job as an investigator.

You don't know who they did and did not talk to. Why is the "girlfriend" refusing to meet with police now? Could it be her call to the suspect was outside the time line? WE DON'T KNOW.

Are you talking about the woman who spouted off to every T.V. camera out there that Martin was calling for help, only to tell the police the exact opposite? Again, anyone can lie to the media, but there are criminal penalties to lying on a sworn affidavit. Do you honestly believe the police department made her change her story? What possible motivation would the lead investigator, who wanted to arrest Zimmerman that night, have to make this lady change her story? My god, man, you are talking crazy conspiracy theories.

Police don't control the morgue. That is the ME's Office, a completely different governmental agency. They pick up the body from the scene and obtain the ID of the victim from the police. If he did indeed lie in the morgue unidentified, that is eiither the fault of the ME's office or Martin's parents.

You don't have one clue as to what was and was not done in the investigation. None of us do. Ny comment about the police and D.A.'s professionalism was made reference the way they have prevented leaks to the media (for the most part) and have chosen to apparently do what they think is right instead of bow to IMMENSE public pressure, like a certain prosecutor did in Durham, North Carolina. That got him a lot of publicity, but in the end cost him disbarment and the loss of a law career.

[rcade]

You really need to make up your mind. Several posts ago you were praising the original investigator at Sanford PD for wanting to arrest Zimmerman that night. Now, your saying he did a crappy job as an investigator.

Go back to that message and show me where, exactly, I praised the original investigator:

http://www.gomeangre...post__p__633530

I shared a link to a news story. There's no praise.

Edited March 28, 2012 by rcade

[UNT90]

Go back to that message and show me where, exactly, I praised the original investigator:

http://www.gomeangre...post__p__633530

I shared a link to a news story. There's no praise.

Come on, man.

OK, I'll play your game. So explain why the guy that thought Martin should be arrested convinced a witness that she didn't hear evidence that would have helped the investigator put Zimmerman in jail?

You guys are so all over the map trying to justify your prejudgement.

Edited March 28, 2012 by UNT90

[rcade]

Come on, man.

Go back to that message and show me where, exactly, I praised the original investigator.

If you can't do that, admit your mistake.

Edited March 28, 2012 by rcade

[MeanGreenTexan]

Go back to that message and show me where, exactly, I praised the original investigator.

If you can't do that, admit your mistake.

Some people take college fan message boards too seriously.

[rcade]

Some people take college fan message boards too seriously.

I made an issue of it because UNT90 keeps misrepresenting what other people are saying here.

[UNT90]

Go back to that message and show me where, exactly, I praised the original investigator.

If you can't do that, admit your mistake.

Look dude, you posted it to support your position. Then, you turn around and accuse the detective of comitting a crime. The same detective who want to put the guy in jail. It's completely non-sensical.

Although I did find a brief synopsis of your arguments here

Edited March 28, 2012 by UNT90

[Rudy]

Right now I think the real question is...

Will this thread challenge the legendary "I'm Just Sayin" thread?