Texas Voter ID Law

[DeepGreen]

Then why pass laws that create barriers to something as fundamentally guaranteed as voting?

It is "fundamentally guaranteed" to American citizens of the United States Of America, and immigrants who become American Citizens. What part of that is so hard to understand?

[UNT90]

Funny how people don't want to talk about the ACORN scandal.

For those that think voter fraud doesn't make a difference, just look at the 2000 election. Florida was decided by, what, 500 votes? Not trying to get into the 2000 election other than to give a prime example where voter fraud could have turned a presidential election (not saying it did either way, saying that it COULD HAVE).

Voter fraud happens. Probably more than people thinkj Don't forget the old Chicago saying (where the currect President cut his political chops); vote early and vote often.

Read this if you don't think it happens

or this

And who is running Pres. Obama's get out the vote campaign for the 2012 election? Buffy Wicks.

Yes, these laws are needed.

Edited March 14, 2012 by UNT90

[forevereagle]

So is a valid ID also an alcohol tax? You need to be able to verify your age to buy alcohol with a valid identification card.

[yyz28]

Not if its free, no.

So, you support this law if we can make ID's free for those who can't afford it? If so, I'm open to compromise.

Well take your case and go argue it, but its already been basically settled. Its a poll tax. If its a substantial burden on voting, its been ruled unconstitutional based on the equal protection clause.

$16 for 6 years to have an ID is not a substantial burden, and it hasn't been "basically settled" as MANY other states have similar laws. I'd like to see the court cases where showing an ID in order to vote has been ruled unconstitutional. ...and if it has been under the equal protection clause, then it's bad law, as the equal protection clause doesn't apply as the mandate is on everyone. The courts also ruled that separate but equal was constitutional for decades - just because the courts have ruled doesn't mean they have gotten it right.

don't think we should put burdens in place to keep the American people from voting, period. I do not favor any attempts to suppress Democracy.

I don't see showing an ID card as a burden. ...and democracy is suppressed when people who aren't qualified to vote are diluting my vote and your vote. The Democracy only works when those who are a part of that democracy are making the decisions and not having their voice drowned out by folks who should not have a say.

argument is that these rules only apply to suppressing Democratic voters because generally minorities and the poor vote for Democrats, the same people who generally would be burdened by these laws. On what grounds do you assume that that statement applies to non-citizens or illegals?

Very simple - because that's the only reason you could possibly want to allow anyone to vote without proving they are allowed to vote or not is to bolster the Democratic votes with the non-citizen or illegal vote which the Democratic party panders to. They don't do this because they are being nice. They do this because they know how loose voting is in most states and that MANY illegals, non-citizens and otherwise disqualified people are voting, and when they do, they vote democrat.

why pass laws that create barriers to something as fundamentally guaranteed as voting?

Because people who shouldn't be voting are doing damage to my vote, which I can prove I am entitled to as a United States Citizen. It is as fundamentally guaranteed to me as it is someone who these laws may create a barrier (which it doesn't, and we all really know it doesn't) for. Why are we protecting the fundamental guarantee for folks who aren't qualified to vote at the expense of those of us who are?

This is actually a very simple issue. We need a system to verify that only those qualified to vote are the ones voting. I'm happy to compromise. Hell, I'm even willing as a taxpayer to subsidize TxDOT to provide ID's for those who can show that they simply can't afford the ID (not driver's license, but state issued ID). ...but this open system where anyone gets to vote without being checked is just insane and does promote fraud.

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

Here's an underlying issue, and it will be for awhile: White people.

I'm a white person. At least, that's what I've been told. Both my mom's and dad's ancestors hopped on ships from England to America in the 18th Century. I don't know how much whiter we can be (except my dad's side...who wrangled their way into Missouri, Arkansas, and Oklahoma, marrying the occasional Indian/Native American along the way).

We are in a situation now where there is no longer a majority race in America. Although we whiteys still have the highest percentage, it's no longer over 50% of the population.

And, so, guess what? There will not be another time in my lifetime when there will be any one race with 50% or more of the U.S. population.

This is scary to many old, white people. Like, my dad, for instance. This stuff scares him. He gets all worked up about immigration, voter ID laws, etc.

There's nothing to stem the tide. Our "Founding Fathers" made this an immigration friendly country. And, it remains that way today.

"But, Fake Lonnie, illegal immigration is bad and lawbreaking."

I agree. But, until we do away with the two real pressure points of its cause - (1) unions driving up the cost of jobs with wage and benefit demands that don't square with reality, and (2) individuals and corporations hiring the illegals because they are have their eyes on "the bottom line" - it's not going to change.

First, union are not going to just fold for the good of the country. And, second, corporations and their investors are not going to take less in profits and dividends just for the good of the country.

If you haven't accepted reality yet, here it is, plain and simple - the bastards on both sides of the political aisle aren't going to push their donors/backers to make the real, necessary changes needed to stem the flow of illegals.

Everyone - left and right - wants what they want economically, and that has created the vacuum illegals fill, and will continue to fill.

So, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em! The food is good, the women tan and smooth, and the beer and tequila readily available and accepted at most social gatherings.

Edited March 14, 2012 by The Fake Lonnie Finch

[GreenMachine]

It is a poll tax, and the courts have said as much. Voter fraud isn't any sort of widespread problem. Not in Texas, not really anywhere in the United States these days. This bill passed in the state legislature was nothing more than red meat issue for conservatives to eat up. It was pretty much destined to get struck down by the Justice Department and/or courts. Perry just wanted something else to appeal to the base for his Presidential run.

In order to provide proof that you're a citizen for said ID, there's still additional costs to get something like a passport or a copy of your birth certificate. In principle I don't have a problem with that, but its not about preventing voter fraud, its about keeping Democratic voters off the rolls.

isn't it presumptous to think that all voters without proper ID are Dems and/or minorities? Do all white republicans have a proper form of ID.

[Mean Green 93-98]

We are in a situation now where there is no longer a majority race in America. Although we whiteys still have the highest percentage, it's no longer over 50% of the population.

While that is now true in Texas, it is not true nationwide. Whites still comprise over 70% of the population.

[UNTLifer]

So is a valid ID also an alcohol tax? You need to be able to verify your age to buy alcohol with a valid identification card.

So is a valid ID also a vehicle tax? You need to be able to verify your age to get a driver's license to drive a car.

forevereagle, I don't expect a reply from old Coffee and TV on either of these questions.

[Coffee and TV]

So is a valid ID also a vehicle tax? You need to be able to verify your age to get a driver's license to drive a car.

forevereagle, I don't expect a reply from old Coffee and TV on either of these questions.

Alcohol and driving have taxes? You don't say!?

I didn't realize either were guaranteed by the constitution like voting is. I'll be damned.

As for the rest, yyz said his piece, & I said mine. I won't get into a 4 page debate about it.

[oldguystudent]

I could not care less about Voter ID laws. There are any number of ways to tilt the polls in one's favor (Gerrymandering, anyone?)

But all this talk on ID. I've always wondered if it would be possible to travel from, say, San Diego to New York City without having to show ID or leave an electronic or paper trail of one's self. I haven't figured out a way to do it unless I take a series of cash withdrawals in my home town over the course of several months and bicycle across the nation with a tent and a backpack full of cash. Somehow, that doesn't much sound like the land of the free to me.

Recall also that the Social Security Card was originally explicitly intended to NOT be used as a form of ID. And now? It's everything about you past, present and future.

[UNTflyer]

Then why pass laws that create barriers to something as fundamentally guaranteed as voting?

Voting is not a fundamentally guaranteed right in this country.

You are required to be a citizen. You cannot be a convicted felon. You must be over the age of 18. You must be a legal resident of the state in which you vote, and in some states you must be a resident for at least 30 days.

There is no other right that applies so many restrictions and requires one to jump so many hurdles in order to exercise.

Except perhaps that pesky 2nd Amendment right.

[forevereagle]

Alcohol and driving have taxes? You don't say!?

It was just a question, and also points out that an ID card could be considered an expense that has many purposes, not just voting. To me, that means that it really isn't a poll tax.

I didn't realize either were guaranteed by the constitution like voting is. I'll be damned.

Flyer already covered the voting aspect, but both are freedoms that are implied in the Constitution.

As for the rest, yyz said his piece, & I said mine. I won't get into a 4 page debate about it.

No, just a 3 page debate...for now.

[yyz28]

So is a valid ID also a vehicle tax? You need to be able to verify your age to get a driver's license to drive a car.

forevereagle, I don't expect a reply from old Coffee and TV on either of these questions.

I'll answer for him as I don't find that a very persuasive argument. While I disagree with C&T on this issue, the tax on beer and on your vehicle are perfectly legal activities of the state government. You'll find that the sale of alcohol and the managements of vehicles are not mentioned in the constitution (since the end of prohibition), thus are state issues. As such, there is nothing in the constitution that can be interpreted to speak to either of these taxes, nor is driving a car or having a beer a fundamental right of a democracy or republic, NOR has it been an issue that we've fought wars and have decades of supreme court litigation over. Moreover, the right to vote and what barriers may be put in place are addressed in the constitution and its amendments.

...so, really, this isn't a very solid argument. I agree with the conclusion you're making, but using beer and vehicle taxes to argue for the ID law isn't a very effective tool, IMHO.

Good debate!

[Monkeypox]

I'll answer for him as I don't find that a very persuasive argument. While I disagree with C&T on this issue, the tax on beer and on your vehicle are perfectly legal activities of the state government. You'll find that the sale of alcohol and the managements of vehicles are not mentioned in the constitution (since the end of prohibition), thus are state issues. As such, there is nothing in the constitution that can be interpreted to speak to either of these taxes, nor is driving a car or having a beer a fundamental right of a democracy or republic, NOR has it been an issue that we've fought wars and have decades of supreme court litigation over. Moreover, the right to vote and what barriers may be put in place are addressed in the constitution and its amendments.

...so, really, this isn't a very solid argument. I agree with the conclusion you're making, but using beer and vehicle taxes to argue for the ID law isn't a very effective tool, IMHO.

Good debate!

I agree. I think firearms would be a better illustration, since the 2nd Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear arms, and yet it requires a photo ID to purchase one.

[yyz28]

I agree. I think firearms would be a better illustration, since the 2nd Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear arms, and yet it requires a photo ID to purchase one.

Agreed... However, there still isn't a separate specific amendment that outlaws a specific financial barrier like the 24th does in the case of the ID Issue. Now, I believe C&T's interpretation of that amendment to include this is a incorrect, which I really think is where his and my disagreement lies. ...but there is at very least an amendment that you can argue on. In the case of the second amendment, you have the right to bear arms, but there is nothing specifically that prohibits the government from taxing or creating fees on the legal sale of firearms, or further documenting who they are sold to. ...again, we can argue if such laws are an over-reach of government power, but it is still a bit of an apples and oranges comparison.

It is, however, far closer in line than vehicle or beer tax is.

[Side Show Joe]

As a hispanic Texan, I like the Voter ID law. Only people who are up to something shady would have a problem with trying to defend the integrity of our elections. I don't think it unfaily targets poor people, the elderly, or minorities. It targets people who may want to illegaly influence the outcome of an election. Poor people manage to obtain Lonestar Cards everday. Old people somehow manage to get their medicare. Minorites, like myself, already manage to earn educations, work, and vote. And, can you believe I did it on my own without the help of the government. Wow! Liberals must hate that.

The Justice Department = the Demoratic Policy Enforcment Department. What a joke...

Edited March 16, 2012 by Side Show Joe

[KRAM1]

As a hispanic Texan, I like the Voter ID law. Only people who are up to something shady would have a problem with trying to defend the integrity of our elections. I don't think it unfaily targets poor people, the elderly, or minorities. It targets people who may want to illegaly influence the outcome of an election. Poor people manage to obtain Lonestar Cards everday. Old people somehow manage to get their medicare. Minorites, like myself, already manage to earn educations, work, and vote. And, can you believe I did it on my own without the help of the government. Wow! Liberals must hate that.

The Justice Department = the Demoratic Policy Enforcment Department. What a joke...

This is just the thing that folks who oppose Vote ID laws hate to hear...the actual truth. Thanks for taking time to post and state these points.

[Green Mean]

I think it's obvious for one to show their ID when voting. I just don't see the big deal here.

[FirefightnRick]

As a hispanic Texan, I like the Voter ID law. Only people who are up to something shady would have a problem with trying to defend the integrity of our elections. I don't think it unfaily targets poor people, the elderly, or minorities. It targets people who may want to illegaly influence the outcome of an election. Poor people manage to obtain Lonestar Cards everday. Old people somehow manage to get their medicare. Minorites, like myself, already manage to earn educations, work, and vote. And, can you believe I did it on my own without the help of the government. Wow! Liberals must hate that.

The Justice Department = the Demoratic Policy Enforcment Department. What a joke...

Great post!

Rick

[GrayEagle]

Hey, if any of you will loan me your voter ID card I'll be glad to see that someone votes in your place. Of course, it might not be who you favored.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

---I have a mixed opinion.... I had a mother-in law who did not drive... no license then. Also does the ID have to be current...?? An expired license or passport that obviously shows the person should be ok....it does positively identify them.... Some older people just don't drive anymore and have no current ID. . In some remote parts of West Texas it is not all that easy to get to a license place or to even obtain an ID... especially if they don't drive or never had one..

--- The whole idea sounds great... but there are problems with it. Nothing is as simple as it looks at first. I work elections and am an election judge. I have seen no evidense of voter fraud anyway.... well one idiot tried to vote absentee and then again on election day... he got nowhere and was arrested. Also had a woman bring in senile relative and wanted to "assist" her [ie. other words vote for her ] ... that didn't fly either .... an ID would not have helped in either of those two cases..

--- The worse thing I have heard [from relatives] is that some polling places [not here but in Dallas area ] just aren't all that private and that people behind them [ and sometimes election officials] can see how they are voting...

--- There been cases this year in other states where a person was registered and brought an expired ID to vote... they were denied even though they were registered and the people at the election desk were certain the right person was standing in front of them...... not good.

..

Edited March 22, 2012 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[Rudy]

---I have a mixed opinion.... I had a mother-in law who did not drive... no license then. Also does the ID have to be current...?? An expired license or passport that obviously shows the person should be ok....it does positively identify them.... Some older people just don't drive anymore and have no current ID. . In some remote parts of West Texas it is not all that easy to get to a license place or to even obtain an ID... especially if they don't drive or never had one..

It doesn't have to be a license. It could also be a state ID card. Personally, I think it should be limited to a current license or ID to show the correct address and ensure the person is voting in the right precint. Remember you do not HAVE to vote. Much like driving, if you choose to, then you must meet certain requirements.

You can also obtain ID's and licenses online from the DPS. The days of having to go stand in line at the DMV for a day are done.

[KRAM1]

---I have a mixed opinion.... I had a mother-in law who did not drive... no license then. Also does the ID have to be current...?? An expired license or passport that obviously shows the person should be ok....it does positively identify them.... Some older people just don't drive anymore and have no current ID. . In some remote parts of West Texas it is not all that easy to get to a license place or to even obtain an ID... especially if they don't drive or never had one..

--- The whole idea sounds great... but there are problems with it. Nothing is as simple as it looks at first. I work elections and am an election judge. I have seen no evidense of voter fraud anyway.... well one idiot tried to vote absentee and then again on election day... he got nowhere and was arrested. Also had a woman bring in senile relative and wanted to "assist" her [ie. other words vote for her ] ... that didn't fly either .... an ID would not have helped in either of those two cases..

--- The worse thing I have heard [from relatives] is that some polling places [not here but in Dallas area ] just aren't all that private and that people behind them [ and sometimes election officials] can see how they are voting...

--- There been cases this year in other states where a person was registered and brought an expired ID to vote... they were denied even though they were registered and the people at the election desk were certain the right person was standing in front of them...... not good.

..

I see your point, but if they can't get to a license bureau to get a Texas ID, how do they get to the polls to vote? Seems if they can get to the polls to vote, they can get to a TX DL office for a photo ID? But, I see your point.

The details, however, can definitely be worked out.....

Edited March 22, 2012 by KRAM1

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

I see your point, but if they can't get to a license bureau to get a Texas ID, how do they get to the polls to vote? Seems if they can get to the polls to vote, they can get to a TX DL office for a photo ID? But, I see your point.

The details, however, can definitely be worked out.....

---Not every county has a place to obtain a license and besides look at the size and population density of some West Texas counties.... the license place may be a long way away... the polling places aren't. You must be from a rather urban area and just don't understand. .

Edited March 22, 2012 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[UNTLifer]

Alcohol and driving have taxes? You don't say!?

I didn't realize either were guaranteed by the constitution like voting is. I'll be damned.

As for the rest, yyz said his piece, & I said mine. I won't get into a 4 page debate about it.

So, how do you propose people prove they are a U.S. citizen and how do you propose they are who they say?