Texas Voter ID Law

[KRAM1]

OK, serious discussion here...I have been scratching my head for some time now to try to figure out just what is wrong with Voter ID laws. While there really isn't much voter fraud if you really look at it on a national basis, even a small amount here and there, seems to me to be wrong. The U.S. Justice Dept. yesterday blocked Texas from the new Texas Voter ID Law that requires all voters to show a state issued ID in order to vote.

We have all heard how these voter ID laws make it harder for minorities and the elderly to vote. Really? How? You have to have a valid ID to drive, to open a bank account, to apply for social security, to be employed, to travel...even many bus companies require valid ID now, to apply for any government assistance programs, to qualify for federal-assisted low-income housing, and on and on and on.

So, and I am dead serious here, just how do these voter ID laws make it harder for anyone to vote? I may be naive here, but I seriously do not get it. I do not see this as a racial, minority or senior citizen issue AT ALL. State issued ID's can be obtained from the Dept. of Motor Vehicles...same place one gets a valid driver's license...our "mentally handicapped son" has a state issued Texas ID card which he needs all the time in dealing with his support programs...he got it at the Dept. of Public Safety...and yes, he can use it to vote...if he so chooses to do.

My Mom is 86 (I'd call that elderly) and her challenge in voting is to get to the polls (yes, she wants to actually go to the polling place to vote) and then actually walking in the place...and she has a valid ID and has no problem showing it to anyone.

heck, students at UNT have to have valid student ID's...do they have photos on them by the way/ I really don't know these days...my UNT student ID did not back in the "dark ages".

So, call me naive or just "uniformed" on this issue, but I don't get it.

Let's take the "emotion" out of this and try to discuss it with our brains....this is not a democrat or Republican issue....even though the Republicans tend to support Voter ID laws and the democrats tend to oppose voter ID laws. Both sides want to make it some emotional issue...R's...voter fraud by the bums those dems, and the dems doing their usual thing of calling the R's racists and hating minorities and the elderly. Stupid on both sides...

But, back to the question...so, what's the big deal anyway? Just looking for some rational thought on the matter without the emotions and perhaps some open minds...Hey, I'm an optimist...it could happen here on the board.

[NT91]

This is the the Gov. Telling the state how it will be. BS

[FirefightnRick]

Justice Dept opposes Texas voter ID law

Proponents of such legislation say the measures are aimed at combating voter fraud. But advocacy groups for minorities and the poor dispute that and argue there is no evidence of significant voter fraud.

In regard to Texas, "I cannot conclude that the state has sustained its burden" of showing that the newly enacted law has neither a discriminatory purpose nor effect, Thomas E. Perez, the head of the Justice Department's civil rights division, said in a letter to the Texas secretary of state.

Texas Attorney General Greg Abbot has said the Obama administration is hostile to laws like the one passed last year in Texas.

In a letter to Texas officials that was also filed in the court case in Washington, the Justice Department said Hispanic voters in Texas are more than twice as likely than non-Hispanic voters to lack a driver's license or personal state-issued photo ID. The department said that even the lowest estimates showed about half of Hispanic registered voters lack such identification.

How in fact, do you BECOME a Texas Voter without a photo ID?

Rick

Edited March 13, 2012 by FirefightnRick

[KRAM1]

One needs a photo ID to use a check at Wl-Mart or Krogers or...well, just about everywhere, and often when using a credit card one is asked for a valid photo ID these days...you need a license to drive in Texas and to purchase auto insurance (legally anyway), right? I just don't get the angst over the Voter ID thing...even though stats show that voter fraud is very minimal overall...for the life of me, I don't get it. No one here has yet posted just how requiring a photo ID WOULD impact minority, elderly...or any other vote for that matter. Is there a valid reason or is this all just PC run amok once again?

[adman]

One needs a photo ID to use a check at Wl-Mart or Krogers or...well, just about everywhere, and often when using a credit card one is asked for a valid photo ID these days...you need a license to drive in Texas and to purchase auto insurance (legally anyway), right? I just don't get the angst over the Voter ID thing...even though stats show that voter fraud is very minimal overall...for the life of me, I don't get it. No one here has yet posted just how requiring a photo ID WOULD impact minority, elderly...or any other vote for that matter. Is there a valid reason or is this all just PC run amok once again?

Who writes checks?

[KRAM1]

Who writes checks?

Me, my Mother, my wife, our son and daughter-in-law....to name just a few...not nearly as many as we used to now with bill pay and credit cards, etc., but sometimes there it's just nice to have the convenience of a check...but, I see your point. Check writing is falling in numbers yearly. Soon, checks will indeed be a thing of the past...then folks can start talking about how that hurts minorities and the elderly, etc.

[Rudy]

It's not that hard to get a freaking photo ID. The notion that it disenfranchises the poor or minorities is bullsh. I personally think it should be restricted to State Issued ID's. Pretty much everyone I stop has a state issued ID, so it can't be that hard to obtain one.

[UNT90]

ACORN hates these types of laws.

I wonder why.

[yyz28]

If you're qualified to vote, you're qualified to have a state issued ID. If it is important to you to go vote, got get an ID.

...the fact that the Justice Department without the matter going through court can stop a state from implementing its own laws enacted by the elected state legislature is pretty amazing. 10th Amendment? Anyone?

[Coffee and TV]

...the fact that the Justice Department without the matter going through court can stop a state from implementing its own laws enacted by the elected state legislature is pretty amazing. 10th Amendment? Anyone?

Only if you wanna forget about the 14th, 15th, and 24th amendments.

[KRAM1]

OK, good comments, but I'd also like to hear from some of our more "liberal" posters what they think is the challenge with the voter ID bill...agree 100% with the "10th Amendment" comment...the 10th is often ignored by the more liberal folks who want the federal govt. to have the say over every part of our lives.

Any of our more liberal friends want to give some good reasons why the voter ID law is so bad? I keep looking for that one reason why this should be such an issue. Puzzling...very puzzling to me.

[yyz28]

Only if you wanna forget about the 14th, 15th, and 24th amendments.

Really? How does proving you're a citizen and qualified to vote violate the 14th OR 15th amendment? Equal protection doesn't apply, as all voters are required to show ID, not just the hispanic voters.

...and requiring you to provide documentation of who you are certainly isn't a poll tax. That's a REAL stretch. ...but for sake of argument and in the search for consistancy, if you were allowed to secure a state ID for free, would you change your stand?

[Coffee and TV]

Really? How does proving you're a citizen and qualified to vote violate the 14th OR 15th amendment? Equal protection doesn't apply, as all voters are required to show ID, not just the hispanic voters.

...and requiring you to provide documentation of who you are certainly isn't a poll tax. That's a REAL stretch.

It is a poll tax, and the courts have said as much. Voter fraud isn't any sort of widespread problem. Not in Texas, not really anywhere in the United States these days. This bill passed in the state legislature was nothing more than red meat issue for conservatives to eat up. It was pretty much destined to get struck down by the Justice Department and/or courts. Perry just wanted something else to appeal to the base for his Presidential run.

...but for sake of argument and in the search for consistancy, if you were allowed to secure a state ID for free, would you change your stand?

In order to provide proof that you're a citizen for said ID, there's still additional costs to get something like a passport or a copy of your birth certificate. In principle I don't have a problem with that, but its not about preventing voter fraud, its about keeping Democratic voters off the rolls.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Coffee and TV

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

The problem here is the same as the problem encountered by potheads who yearn for legal marijuana - there are already Federal laws regarding voting rights. And, also like the potheads learn time and again, it doesn't matter what law your state passes, Federal law will control when there is a conflict between them.

CAVEAT: I fully understand that...

...the 10th Amendment exists,

...some state pass Medical Marijuana laws,

...you're not prejudice against Mexicans specifically, but just in a general sense.

It doesn't matter. Where there is Federal law, it will control. Spin your position any way you want; Federal law will still win the day. Even the commie lib Supreme Courts in Cali and Massachusetts have given up to Federal law on pothead arrest issues...and, yes, even though it might be possessed for medical purposes.

State laws makes people feel good about themselves. It's like slapping yourself on the back for a job well done even though what you've done will eventually equal a big bag of nothing.

Fortunately, America is entrepreneurial - even in politics. So, PACs can be formed and political snake oil salesmen can get people whipped up enough to send them their money. It's like televangelism without God.

Yes, 2nd Amendment nuts have the NRA. Potheads have NORML. There are countless immigration groups. And, they all have one thing in common - they know damn well Federal law will trump state law...but that people can be whipped up enough anyway to wedge money off of them by telling them they can stop it!

It's really pretty funny.

So, get on that mouse wheel, voter law/immigration people. You've got plenty of company with the potheads and States righters who don't understand that the Constitution or Federal common law.

Fly into that window, potheads! But, make room for the voter ID/immigration folks. The don't see the clear pane of Federal law either.

[Coffee and TV]

The problem here is the same as the problem encountered by potheads who yearn for legal marijuana - there are already Federal laws regarding voting rights. And, also like the potheads learn time and again, it doesn't matter what law your state passes, Federal law will control when there is a conflict between them.

CAVEAT: I fully understand that...

...the 10th Amendment exists,

...some state pass Medical Marijuana laws,

...you're not prejudice against Mexicans specifically, but just in a general sense.

It doesn't matter. Where there is Federal law, it will control. Spin your position any way you want; Federal law will still win the day. Even the commie lib Supreme Courts in Cali and Massachusetts have given up to Federal law on pothead arrest issues...and, yes, even though it might be possessed for medical purposes.

State laws makes people feel good about themselves. It's like slapping yourself on the back for a job well done even though what you've done will eventually equal a big bag of nothing.

Fortunately, America is entrepreneurial - even in politics. So, PACs can be formed and political snake oil salesmen can get people whipped up enough to send them their money. It's like televangelism without God.

Yes, 2nd Amendment nuts have the NRA. Potheads have NORML. There are countless immigration groups. And, they all have one thing in common - they know damn well Federal law will trump state law...but that people can be whipped up enough anyway to wedge money off of them by telling them they can stop it!

It's really pretty funny.

So, get on that mouse wheel, voter law/immigration people. You've got plenty of company with the potheads and States righters who don't understand that the Constitution or Federal common law.

Fly into that window, potheads! But, make room for the voter ID/immigration folks. The don't see the clear pane of Federal law either.

Remind me to light up a joint at the first post-legalization tailgate we have. I'll have a cigar without weed waiting for you.

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

Remind me to light up a joint at the first post-legalization tailgate we have. I'll have a cigar without weed waiting for you.

Sure. It'll be the day after Congress decides people can buy and carry whatever type of weapon they want. And, a couple of days after all Mexicans are rounded up in door-to-door searches and taken back across the border.

[Coffee and TV]

Sure. It'll be the day after Congress decides people can buy and carry whatever type of weapon they want.

Like the (now expired) assault weapons ban? Or the Brady Bill?

And, a couple of days after all Mexicans are rounded up in door-to-door searches and taken back across the border.

I hope not, I know some really cool Mexicans.

[keith]

<snip>

Voter fraud isn't any sort of widespread problem. Not in Texas, not really anywhere in the United States these days.

</snip>

This statement accompanies almost every argument I have ever heard opposing voter ID laws and it is always said with such certainty. How do you know? If you are not verifying the identity of the voter, how does anyone know?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Keith

[Coffee and TV]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Keith

How does anyone know you don't have superpowers? I mean, I'm not finding any, but that doesn't mean you don't.

[Monkeypox]

It is a poll tax, and the courts have said as much. Voter fraud isn't any sort of widespread problem. Not in Texas, not really anywhere in the United States these days. This bill passed in the state legislature was nothing more than red meat issue for conservatives to eat up. It was pretty much destined to get struck down by the Justice Department and/or courts. Perry just wanted something else to appeal to the base for his Presidential run.

Wait, so the 30 states that require photo IDs have a poll tax?! How do they get away with that?!

Irony is the DOJ responsible for funneling thousands of guns to drug cartels to be used to murder countless Mexicans arguing that voter ID laws are discriminatory towards Latinos.

[Coffee and TV]

Wait, so the 30 states that require photo IDs have a poll tax?! How do they get away with that?!

It has to be required for free.

[keith]

Vermont's Voter-Fraud Friendly Policies

[yyz28]

It is a poll tax, and the courts have said as much. Voter fraud isn't any sort of widespread problem. Not in Texas, not really anywhere in the United States these days. This bill passed in the state legislature was nothing more than red meat issue for conservatives to eat up. It was pretty much destined to get struck down by the Justice Department and/or courts. Perry just wanted something else to appeal to the base for his Presidential run.

In order to provide proof that you're a citizen for said ID, there's still additional costs to get something like a passport or a copy of your birth certificate. In principle I don't have a problem with that, but its not about preventing voter fraud, its about keeping Democratic voters off the rolls.

Getting an ID to prove you're a citizen is a poll tax, huh? I think that's a pretty massive perversion of that rule. You're not mandated to pay to vote, but you are mandated to prove you're allowed to vote. If that costs 10 bucks (for an ID that has many other benefits and is good for up to 6 years) then that is a totally separate issue and NOT what the 24th amendment intended to keep from happening. The point of the 24th was to keep polling places from forcing voters to ante up on the spot to be able to vote in an order to suppress the minority and poor vote. To compare a legitimate intent to verify that legal voters are voting

Do you honestly believe that we shouldn't be verifying that people voting are actually qualified to vote? If so, I will counter the claim that "it's about keeping Democratic Voters off the rolls" and state that those in opposition are intent on having illegals and non-citizens voting as they historically favor the Democratic party.

The argument that there is no Voter fraud is a straw man, and exactly the point that has already been made in this thread is dead on - without a way to verify who is voting, how do we know if only qualified voters are doing so?

[Coffee and TV]

Getting an ID to prove you're a citizen is a poll tax, huh?

Not if its free, no.

If that costs 10 bucks (for an ID that has many other benefits and is good for up to 6 years) then that is a totally separate issue

Cool. Well take your case and go argue it, but its already been basically settled. Its a poll tax. If its a substantial burden on voting, its been ruled unconstitutional based on the equal protection clause.

The point of the 24th was to keep polling places from forcing voters to ante up on the spot to be able to vote in an order to suppress the minority and poor vote.

Seems to still apply if you look at the statistics.

Do you honestly believe that we shouldn't be verifying that people voting are actually qualified to vote?

I don't think we should put burdens in place to keep the American people from voting, period. I do not favor any attempts to suppress Democracy.

If so, I will counter the claim that "it's about keeping Democratic Voters off the rolls" and state that those in opposition are intent on having illegals and non-citizens voting as they historically favor the Democratic party.

My argument is that these rules only apply to suppressing Democratic voters because generally minorities and the poor vote for Democrats, the same people who generally would be burdened by these laws. On what grounds do you assume that that statement applies to non-citizens or illegals?

The argument that there is no Voter fraud is a straw man

Then why pass laws that create barriers to something as fundamentally guaranteed as voting?

Edited March 13, 2012 by Coffee and TV

[Rudy]

...the fact that the Justice Department without the matter going through court can stop a state from implementing its own laws enacted by the elected state legislature is pretty amazing. 10th Amendment? Anyone?

Irony is the DOJ responsible for funneling thousands of guns to drug cartels to be used to murder countless Mexicans arguing that voter ID laws are discriminatory towards Latinos.

Beat me to it.