Would you prefer Texas State, UTSA, Both or Neither?

[YouCanUseaMint]

If you want to improve your bottom line, make the investment in schools who have infrastructure to compete.

Texas State Profile

- Austin DMA

- 34k enrollment

- $119 million endowment

- Emerging Research University

- $20 million athletics budget

Basketball

- This is where we struggle, but Head Coach Davalos' contract is up this year and is not likely to be renewed. Expect Texas State to engage in a national search like they did when ultimately choosing Coach Fran

Football

- As everyone knows, we are expanding our stadium to 30k in time for our home opener this season against Texas Tech.

- We signed a hell of a recruiting class, even compared to y'all ( according to Rivals, TXST: eleven 3* and thirteen 2* vs UNT: five 3* and sixteen 2*).

- Playing FCS schools in a 16000 seat stadium, we averaged more than 15k last season

Baseball/Softball

- The Sun Belt is a damn competitive baseball league and Texas State would add to the competition. We've gone to the postseason two out of the last three years and have won the Southland the last three years.

- Texas State softball is also competitive and just beat UNT 1-0. They've also been to the postseason two out of the last three years I believe.

- Both programs have solid facilities., in fact, check out our latest addition to Bobcat Ballpark.. a caboose donated by an alum turned into a suite

[wardly]

What do you mean?!?!? This has nothing to do with turning up our nose on anyone. I have nothing against UTSA or TxState. It has nothing, nothing, nothing, to do with them. All I care about it what is good for UNT. Having to compete against 2 more Texas schools for recruits and attention is NOT GOOD FOR UNT..period. It has nothing to do with vanity. It has nothing to do with how good our program is vs. theirs. I really am completed stunned with some of the folks on here. All that matters is building this program.

we are in violent agreement about building our program! however, since my freshman year 1961 we have never had what i would call an ongoing rival. i was hoping to see one before i die. even when we were in the MVC with Tulsa it wasn't a game you planned around. SMU schedules us when it suits them, and while it may mean alot to us, it really isn't a big deal to them. bottom line is that Texas State and UTSA are not going away, and i would rather play them every year than La. Tech. besides, i think that exposure in South/Central Texas might expand our recruiting base. at any rate, it will be a mute point if we are able to join the new MWC/CUSA.just an old man's opinion.

[mgfan]

For me it has everything to do with vanity. I truly believe that UNT is better than UTSA and Tx State in every way. Please take your comments and pics to your own board.

[forevereagle]

What board is this again? We dont care about TSUSM. Please stop trying to convince us we do.

[wardly]

If you want to improve your bottom line, make the investment in schools who have infrastructure to compete.

Texas State Profile

- Austin DMA

- 34k enrollment

- $119 million endowment

- Emerging Research University

- $20 million athletics budget

Basketball

- This is where we struggle, but Head Coach Davalos' contract is up this year and is not likely to be renewed. Expect Texas State to engage in a national search like they did when ultimately choosing Coach Fran

Football

- As everyone knows, we are expanding our stadium to 30k in time for our home opener this season against Texas Tech.

- We signed a hell of a recruiting class, even compared to y'all ( according to Rivals, TXST: eleven 3* and thirteen 2* vs UNT: five 3* and sixteen 2*).

- Playing FCS schools in a 16000 seat stadium, we averaged more than 15k last season

Baseball/Softball

- The Sun Belt is a damn competitive baseball league and Texas State would add to the competition. We've gone to the postseason two out of the last three years and have won the Southland the last three years.

- Texas State softball is also competitive and just beat UNT 1-0. They've also been to the postseason two out of the last three years I believe.

- Both programs have solid facilities., in fact, check out our latest addition to Bobcat Ballpark.. a caboose donated by an alum turned into a suite

thanks for the update, and good luck in the future, with or without us. we would rather have ULM.

[DeepGreen]

What do you mean?!?!? This has nothing to do with turning up our nose on anyone. I have nothing against UTSA or TxState. It has nothing, nothing, nothing, to do with them. All I care about it what is good for UNT. Having to compete against 2 more Texas schools for recruits and attention is NOT GOOD FOR UNT..period. It has nothing to do with vanity. It has nothing to do with how good our program is vs. theirs. I really am completed stunned with some of the folks on here. All that matters is building this program.

Good post. Let TSU-SM and UTSA spend time in the trenches like UNT has for umpteen years...and we're still there. Like someone said in an earlier post, it wouldn't be long before we'll be wanting SFA and Lamar. We have to move onward and upward, not down or sideways.

[Cr1028]

Good post. Let TSU-SM and UTSA spend time in the trenches like UNT has for umpteen years...and we're still there. Like someone said in an earlier post, it wouldn't be long before we'll be wanting SFA and Lamar. We have to move onward and upward, not down or sideways.

I have to disagree with you. I think Texas State has done what it takes to move up to the next level. They upgraded their facilities, their coaching staff, and are already scheduled to be FBS.

Other than the fact that many on here think Texas State is "beneath us", I think a Texas State game could bring the same kind of crowds and excitement we saw for the Houston game this year. Houston, TxStU, and UNT are all large public universities fighting a commuter school image. I think a rivalry with either of the two or both would be great. I also think it is neat that we have played them more than any other school.

SMU will forever look down on us and will continue to duck us because they have nothing to gain by playing us(in their mind). We were lucky they scheduled the upcoming series because they wanted to boost their attendance figures to get a new conference to sniff around. They were lucky enough to have the Big East fall into their lap early but were already locked into our series.

I haven't been around long enough but could some of you long-timers fill me in on the status of our program and Texas State's program back in 1994 when we last played(I know we won.)? I'm curious as to why they didn't push to be I-A back then and why we did. Were we dominating I-AA competition at the time or something?

[foutsrouts]

I have to disagree with you. I think Texas State has done what it takes to move up to the next level. They upgraded their facilities, their coaching staff, and are already scheduled to be FBS.

Other than the fact that many on here think Texas State is "beneath us", I think a Texas State game could bring the same kind of crowds and excitement we saw for the Houston game this year. Houston, TxStU, and UNT are all large public universities fighting a commuter school image. I think a rivalry with either of the two or both would be great. I also think it is neat that we have played them more than any other school.

SMU will forever look down on us and will continue to duck us because they have nothing to gain by playing us(in their mind). We were lucky they scheduled the upcoming series because they wanted to boost their attendance figures to get a new conference to sniff around. They were lucky enough to have the Big East fall into their lap early but were already locked into our series.

I haven't been around long enough but could some of you long-timers fill me in on the status of our program and Texas State's program back in 1994 when we last played(I know we won.)? I'm curious as to why they didn't push to be I-A back then and why we did. Were we dominating I-AA competition at the time or something?

Southwest Texas State was D2 until close to the mid-80's, and they had success at that level in the early 80's with two national championships under Jim Wacker. We were D1A until close to the mid-80's, and had experienced quite a bit of success at the highest level of football for several decades. For some reason that success tended to be in the second half of decades, but you can look that up and see this for yourself.

Strangely enough, we dropped DOWN to D1AA around the same time that Southwest Texas moved UP to D1AA. As far as dominating D1AA competition is concerned, I wouldn't say we dominated, but we were generally good to very good at that level. Southwest Texas not so much.

We very likely wouldn't even be having this conversation if our administration would have "manned up" and made every effort to keep us at the highest level of football. It's all water under the bridge now, but LALA and others managed to pull off staying at the highest level, and so should have we.

In all honesty, I guess many of us who remember those days still feel a touch of bitterness, and feel that we somehow deserve a chance to be in the conversation with some of the "name teams" of college football. That's not necessarily a slight on the two up and coming Hill Country area schools, but I guess it comes with playing the game for a hundred years with much of that at (or close to) the highest level. .

[TheColonyEagle]

Backwards? Perception? I don't call facilities like this..

http://txstatebobcats.com/photo_gallery.aspx?gallery=153&photo=/custompages/gallery/Jerry_D_and_Linda_Gregg_Fields_Bobcat_Stadium_West_Side_Complex_09_06_2009/thumbs/_middle_IMG_3507.jpg

looking backwards. Nor does it project a poor perception.

In fact, as much as I love Apogee stadium, the facilities at Texas St, are just as nice.

That's great. Their facilities are nice. But I don't care about how nice their facilties are!

Our athletic dept's goal BETTER be this...and only this:

We had better be looking into getting into the new CUSA/MWC conference and then we had better be looking at climbing to the top of that conference so when the BCS and NCAA does what they're probably going to do in a few years (re-classify "division I" football) we have a seat at the table. I don't see there being 120+ programs in 10 years. We had better be one of the top 65 programs in the nation in the next few years. I think we can get there. I think the administration has committed what they've committed to get us there.

But having a goal of some kick ass road trips IS NOT going to move our program forward. Fun for some fans? Sure. But how does that MOVE OUR PROGRAM FORWARD.

If we're left out of the new college football world then everyone will have plenty of time to take trips to San Antonio and San Marcos and Sam Houston State...then you're going to REALLY see an shiny new empty stadium.

I think Our administration built what they built to GO FOR IT. Not have a cute little regional conference. Why do you think the stadium was built with plans to expand? I think our administration has been looking at TCU and South Florida for the past 10 years. THAT'S what we want.

Yes, San Marcos is nice and TX State's stadium looks good. But who cares?

seat at the big boy table > kick ass weekend

Edited February 25, 2012 by TheColonyEagle

[Side Show Joe]

Looking to add Texas State and UTSA is just wrong to me. It's too early for this kind of planning. Yes if we added them we would see their fans travel to our home games, and we could draw 26-29 thousand a game, and see about a fourth of our stadium filled with their fans. But, I'd rather focus on seeing how the alliance shakes out. Playing Rice, Tulsa, and UTEP, we would draw 26-29 thousand a games, and see the stands filled with 90 to 95% of our fans. I don't care that UTSA and Texas State will travel, and Rice and Tulsa may not. Our goal should be to fill Apogee with our fans, and our fans will not come out in numbers to watch us play a Southland conference schedule. I wonder if some of you UTSA/TSU advocates were against moving out of the Southland too. This isn't about pulling an SMU on these programs, it's about developing UNT into the best program it can be. We built a grand stadium, and we got a great coach, lets think bigger. Playing in the same conference with UTSA and Texas State is not in the best interest of North Texas at this time.

If you want to see Apogee empty, just add more FCS programs to the Sun Belt. That's not how you grow in college football. I hope the alliance picks their expansion candidates soon.

[wardly]

Looking to add Texas State and UTSA is just wrong to me. It's too early for this kind of planning. Yes if we added them we would see their fans travel to our home games, and we could draw 26-29 thousand a game, and see about a fourth of our stadium filled with their fans. But, I'd rather focus on seeing how the alliance shakes out. Playing Rice, Tulsa, and UTEP, we would draw 26-29 thousand a games, and see the stands filled with 90 to 95% of our fans. I don't care that UTSA and Texas State will travel, and Rice and Tulsa may not. Our goal should be to fill Apogee with our fans, and our fans will not come out in numbers to watch us play a Southland conference schedule. I wonder if some of you UTSA/TSU advocates were against moving out of the Southland too. This isn't about pulling an SMU on these programs, it's about developing UNT into the best program it can be. We built a grand stadium, and we got a great coach, lets think bigger. Playing in the same conference with UTSA and Texas State is not in the best interest of North Texas at this time.

If you want to see Apogee empty, just add more FCS programs to the Sun Belt. That's not how you grow in college football. I hope the alliance picks their expansion candidates soon.

will take about 6 months according to reports. as far as me personally advocating leaving the Southland Conference,[which i did] has nothing to do with wanting to build intra state rivals.at that time it was either move up or drop the program, so we joined the Big West "on the cheap" with little if any increase in our athletic budget. to fund the program we began to play multiple "road kill" games annually.hopefully we will be invited to join the new MWC/CUSA conference and this conversation will just have been an excerise. for us to be all we can we must go to UNT games to watch the Eagles play, not who they play. big difference.

[Voice of Reason]

Neither. Houston and UTEP would be better rivalries by a long shot. Houston would give us a recruiting inroad in Southeast Texas and Louisiana and UTEP has the alumni in the metroplex.

[Mean Green 93-98]

Neither. Houston and UTEP would be better rivalries by a long shot. Houston would give us a recruiting inroad in Southeast Texas and Louisiana and UTEP has the alumni in the metroplex.

If someone can talk Houston into leaving the Big East for the Sun Belt, sales executives will have a new analogy to replace "He could sell ice to an Eskimo."

[Voice of Reason]

Didn't mean that they join the Sun Belt. Just a regularly scheduled non-conference game like Florida/Florida St, Clemson/South Carolina, Georgia/Georgia Tech. That is what UNT is missing. Hell even starting one with TCU, SMU or Tulsa would be better than UTSA or SWT.

Edited February 25, 2012 by Voice of Reason

[Cr1028]

Back on topic. If we didn't get into the alliance, would you rather have TSU-SM, UTSA,neither, or both. I'd choose TSU-SM for the selfish reason that they are close to my home and I want an in-state rivalry(since SMU will perpetually duck us).

I just get the feeling if the rest of college football had the same attitude as some of us, Utah never goes to the Pac12, TCU never goes to the Big12, and Boise never goes to the MWC and eventually the Big East.

It is good to know that schools like USF paid their dues before going to a BCS conference. They built their progam for an eternity of 4 long years at the I-AA level, and spent a second eternity of 4 years at the FBS level as both an independent and in an "inferior conference" to the BCS.

I can't wait until we have "paid our dues" at the same level USF has so we can get into a better conference too.

[casual fan]

WOW! Let's recap .....and look at the facts.

1. Playing UTSA & TS would drag us down to their level. UTSA home games averaged 35,521 last year. With a 4-6 record they still drew 32,369 their last home game against something called Minot State. They have HOME games lined up with Arizona, Arizona State, Virginia, Kansas State, Rice, Houston, Baylor, and Oklahoma State. The Alamodome holds 65,000.

2. Playing them would let them compete with us for Texas recruits. According to Rivals we signed 5 three star recruits this year while TS signed 11 three star recruits. What could they have done if they had played us?

3. We don't need their help to fill our stadium. I watched Steve Ramsey play when we were NTSU. I also sat under the overhang with a few other people and looked at a nearly empty NEW stadium as we routed MT the last game of this past season. We don't have to go to Egypt to find De Nile.

I hope we can get into the new USA/alliance conference. We really need it. It would be OK if some other Texas schools come along for the ride. But the truth is I would not be totally shocked if UTSA gets picked over us because of their potential and location.

[cwb]

WOW! Let's recap .....and look at the facts.

1. Playing UTSA & TS would drag us down to their level. UTSA home games averaged 35,521 last year. With a 4-6 record they still drew 32,369 their last home game against something called Minot State. They have HOME games lined up with Arizona, Arizona State, Virginia, Kansas State, Rice, Houston, Baylor, and Oklahoma State. The Alamodome holds 65,000.

2. Playing them would let them compete with us for Texas recruits. According to Rivals we signed 5 three star recruits this year while TS signed 11 three star recruits. What could they have done if they had played us?

3. We don't need their help to fill our stadium. I watched Steve Ramsey play when we were NTSU. I also sat under the overhang with a few other people and looked at a nearly empty NEW stadium as we routed MT the last game of this past season. We don't have to go to Egypt to find De Nile.

I hope we can get into the new USA/alliance conference. We really need it. It would be OK if some other Texas schools come along for the ride. But the truth is I would not be totally shocked if UTSA gets picked over us because of their potential and location.

I don't think "casual fan" is a good fit for you. Thank you for your support.

[rcade]

WOW! Let's recap .....and look at the facts.

Ouch. You did such a good job selling UTSA I'm transferring.

[rjmunthe]

LOL. UTSA is a commuter school. They are the only football in the town, they are irrelevant in everything with horrible (or no facilities). Both can die. Literally. Playing more hyphens won't help our reputation. We already have to deal with ULM. (Which is a better opponent than either of these.)

[PlummMeanGreen]

WOW! Let's recap .....and look at the facts.

1. Playing UTSA & TS would drag us down to their level. UTSA home games averaged 35,521 last year. With a 4-6 record they still drew 32,369 their last home game against something called Minot State. They have HOME games lined up with Arizona, Arizona State, Virginia, Kansas State, Rice, Houston, Baylor, and Oklahoma State. The Alamodome holds 65,000.

2. Playing them would let them compete with us for Texas recruits. According to Rivals we signed 5 three star recruits this year while TS signed 11 three star recruits. What could they have done if they had played us?

3. We don't need their help to fill our stadium. I watched Steve Ramsey play when we were NTSU. I also sat under the overhang with a few other people and looked at a nearly empty NEW stadium as we routed MT the last game of this past season. We don't have to go to Egypt to find De Nile.

I hope we can get into the new USA/alliance conference. We really need it. It would be OK if some other Texas schools come along for the ride. But the truth is I would not be totally shocked if UTSA gets picked over us because of their potential and location.

I think 7 losing seasons in a row had much to do with taking much of the glitter off Apogee Stadium's debut year. DFW still has that "winner's town" attitude and Denton is part of that same culture, too, since so many of our students and alums live in DFW.

Denton had about 25,000 pop. and UNT an enrollment of about 14,000 when Steve Ramsey was our QB. Our demographics have changed a bit since. I loved SMU AD Russ Potts Mustang-Mania......"an empty seat cannot buy a hotdog" attitude...... and their football ticket give-away program back in the late 70's, but SMU did not retain many of those "free ticket fans" as I feared they would not. I have no idea what percent of UTSA crowd estimates were freebies or if they even had to count actual fans entering the AlamoDome with computerized hand counters, either.

Year 4 and that fourth year being the 4'th losing season in a row for UTSA will be the year they find out what their true fan base is. They will only have 1 Spring/Summer to sell or give away tickets between Year 3 and Year 4, ie, not the same amount of time they had for Year 1 with the novelty of a brand new product to promote. With their impressive upcoming home schedules (HINT! HINT! UNT!) they will have some games when the traveling fans out-number the UTSA fans, but that's OK, too, since that used to happen quite regularly at many of the SWC private schools stadiums.

We averaged a bit over 18,000 per game after our 7'th losing season in a row. This is probably the base we can build on with more expected growth in and around campus and the region we are based. Our DFW metroplex-influenced culture on campus is one that supports a winnner and shows for schools we know about. (Most SBC schools do not fit that mold).

I'm impressed with what UTSA did free tickets or no free tickets. They outdrew UH and SMU, too, who both had winning seasons and went to bowl games, too Both of those schools could have used larger stadiums if they had wanted to. (I read on UH's board today that they are now unsettled on where they will even build a new stadium--on campus or somewhere off I-45).

I prefer a rivalry with the school from the Alamo City than any other in the state (except all the former SWC schools and UTEP, of course). I have no idea how many traveling fans UTSA would have since they are still just out of their inaugural football season, but I know North Texas fans would flock to the Alamo City because it is a great destination city for fans and tourists, too. We once took almost 20,000 traveling Mean Green fans to DKR Memoral Stadium back in the day only to lose to UT 17 to 14.

UTSA will for sure be an interesting study the next few years and if they continue with their big crowds, it might be time for North Texas to make a few job offers for those responsible, but many of us can rest assure that limited free tickets would only be part of a football marketing program in Denton.

GMG!

Edited February 26, 2012 by PlummMeanGreen

[GrandGreen]

We complain about no regional opponents, then complain that we would have to compete with teams for recruits, then we whine about how SMU held us down, but want to do the same thing. That cake must be really good.

Shoot, lets add SFA and SHSU and beg UTA to add football. Dallas Baptist and UTD need programs too How about UNT-D? People bring up how many times we have played TSSM and I have been to a lot of those games and haven't seen a lot of interest in the game on either side. UTSA is gong to start its second year of any kind of football.

I have not complained either about the lack of regional components or SMU holding us down as a tactic. SMU has played the game to their benefit and by the looks of things it has worked pretty well for them. They have always kept separation between themselves and NT, no I have never appreciated their approach as a NT fan but I certainly understand it.

If you think NT is going to be benefited by the proliferation of more fb football teams in Texas, I would like to know how. If NT was driven by regional opponents it could have stayed the Southland.

The facts are obvious, NT has struggled for decades upon decades to raise the level of their athletes. They have watched numerous teams they have been superior or equal to, pass them by such as Louisville, Cincinnati and Boise State. UTSA and TSSM could potentially join that list, but I am not sure why anyone thinks that NT should help them. In a few years, if NT doesn't move forward or the conference needs more members and the Texas Twins advance, then it is likely that NT will share a conference. It will provide a good road trip, but I highly doubt there are going to be a great number of fans travel either way. NT will pick up some attendance from the thousands of alumni in the DFW workforce from those universities versus any Belt school. However, after the new wears off; I predict that the Texas Twins won't add a thousand to an average conference game. Nether do I see a significant increase in NT fans coming to see NT versus one of the Texas Twins in any significant number over a FIU or ULL.

[Rudy]

Add NMSU and rekindle our rivalry with them.

[risinggreen]

After their very successful season, my sources at Sam Houston are telling me that there are some strong rumblings about their school moving up to FBS ASAP, and I'm sure that SFA can't be too far behind. Also, Southwestern Univ. (a charter member of the SWC) is starting a program next year for the first time since the 50's, and they appear to have ambitions of returning to prominence.

Since we all know that UTA is also strongly considering the move, we could have us a nice tight little regional conference brewing here. What do ya say about UNT, UTA, Sam Houston, SFA, San Marcos, San Antonio, Lamar, and Southwestern? I mean, if we want to reunite with the two "Sans", why not the rest of 'em?

Outstanding rivalry and road trip potential, and we could pick up other Texas schools as they move up the ladder. The Texas Conference? Or maybe The Greenhorn Conference would be more appropriate.

[rjmunthe]

After their very successful season, my sources at Sam Houston are telling me that there are some strong rumblings about their school moving up to FBS ASAP, and I'm sure that SFA can't be too far behind. Also, Southwestern Univ. (a charter member of the SWC) is starting a program next year for the first time since the 50's, and they appear to have ambitions of returning to prominence.

Since we all know that UTA is also strongly considering the move, we could have us a nice tight little regional conference brewing here. What do ya say about UNT, UTA, Sam Houston, SFA, San Marcos, San Antonio, Lamar, and Southwestern? I mean, if we want to reunite with the two "Sans", why not the rest of 'em?

Outstanding rivalry and road trip potential, and we could pick up other Texas schools as they move up the ladder. The Texas Conference? Or maybe The Greenhorn Conference would be more appropriate.

We don't need another Southland. Furthermore, it's gotten to the point where it's ridiculous that if you win the FCS Championship you get an auto-bid to the FBS. Sam Houston will not be able to pull fans...that school is about as much regional commuter as it gets. We don't need another Southland, and, I for one, would be disgusted to be playing the likes of UTA, Sam Houston, SFA...we pride ourselves on being in the second tier of Texas schools, and by lowering ourself to those schools levels, we have dropped into the basement of Texas. Remember, football runs schools; people assume how good a school is here by football. And if UNT is in a conference with SFA, we then become them and lose our legitimacy. We need to make our move fast, get to the CUSA, and leave all these hyphens and wannabes behind us.

[wardly]

Shoot, lets add SFA and SHSU and beg UTA to add football. Dallas Baptist and UTD need programs too How about UNT-D? People bring up how many times we have played TSSM and I have been to a lot of those games and haven't seen a lot of interest in the game on either side. UTSA is gong to start its second year of any kind of football.

I have not complained either about the lack of regional components or SMU holding us down as a tactic. SMU has played the game to their benefit and by the looks of things it has worked pretty well for them. They have always kept separation between themselves and NT, no I have never appreciated their approach as a NT fan but I certainly understand it.

If you think NT is going to be benefited by the proliferation of more fb football teams in Texas, I would like to know how. If NT was driven by regional opponents it could have stayed the Southland.

The facts are obvious, NT has struggled for decades upon decades to raise the level of their athletes. They have watched numerous teams they have been superior or equal to, pass them by such as Louisville, Cincinnati and Boise State. UTSA and TSSM could potentially join that list, but I am not sure why anyone thinks that NT should help them. In a few years, if NT doesn't move forward or the conference needs more members and the Texas Twins advance, then it is likely that NT will share a conference. It will provide a good road trip, but I highly doubt there are going to be a great number of fans travel either way. NT will pick up some attendance from the thousands of alumni in the DFW workforce from those universities versus any Belt school. However, after the new wears off; I predict that the Texas Twins won't add a thousand to an average conference game. Nether do I see a significant increase in NT fans coming to see NT versus one of the Texas Twins in any significant number over a FIU or ULL.

good post, but actually we didn't struggle for decades to raise our level of athletics. after Hayden Fry left we never funded the program properly and as a result started a long decline.having said that, i really feel that we have turned the corner and am excited about our future regardless of conference affiliation.