Would you prefer Texas State, UTSA, Both or Neither?

SilverEagle · February 24, 2012

Again;
If UNT focuses on building rivalries with local schools BECAUSE THE SCHOOLS WILL BRING MORE FANS TO APOGEE, then we are doing something very wrong.

We need UNT fans to fill Apogee, not opposing fans. Ideally, the only opposing fans at Apogee would be sitting in sections 124 & 125. The rest of the stadium would be sold out and wearing Green.

The correct thought process needs to be: "What schools will bring the most UNT fans out to watch the Mean Green play?"
Now, answering that question is tough. Will more UNT fans show up for TX St. over Rice? Who knows?

You know, I totally agree with you about "coming-out-for-love-of-the-Mean-Green" because I've preached it for years. But we still have a section of the stadium set aside for visitors. And it's my belief that Texas State and possibly UTSA would regularly fill that section up and add a lot of noise to the game day atmosphere. They are also state Universities who's alumni base have a lot more in common with us than the Alumni base of either Rice or Tulsa.

Good God, when did we become SMU with our attitude toward Texas St. and UTSA? As long as they are buying tickets, and paying for parking, and buying food at the concession stands, what's the problem?

rjmunthe · February 24, 2012

UTSA. They have fans. Not apathetic drunk brahs like SWTSU (see, channeling my inner SMU)

MeanGreen61 · February 24, 2012

Forget Texas State and UTSA. Tulsa could and should be our real rival. I'll take a game vs Tulsa over the so-called Texas Twins. Think CUSA, not Southland !

rjmunthe · February 24, 2012

Forget Texas State and UTSA. Tulsa could and should be our real rival. I'll take a game vs Tulsa over the so-called Texas Twins. Think CUSA, not Southland !

I'll take that. The two hyphens can go away.

VideoEagle · February 24, 2012

I voted both. While my instinct was and is against adding FCS move ups, the fact of the matter is they will have already moved up by the time they could be added. Think the fact they moved up is so bad no conference would want them? Then I guess FIU isn't being mentioned by multiple sources as a possible school for CUSA. Once you have moved up, you're there. People still refer to Boise as a JUCO after BCS bowl appearances.

We've played TXST a lot in the past and our overall record against them is 29-7-3. We've dominated although most of the games took place decades ago. Much like our overall record against SMU is 4-28-1. Again, most of the games were decades ago. But any of the arguments against playing TXST echo SMUs arguments against playing us. You can't have it both ways.

UTSA is just too big a school in too large a market to ignore forever. Yes, I agree they need to grow and mature but they are just too large to pretend they aren't there. Much like NT is too large and in too big a market for others to pretend we don't exist either. You can't have it both ways!

As for letting them grow in the WAC, again that ship has sailed. Both will be full FBS members by the time they could join the Belt. They will in fact HAVE grown while in the WAC.

By the way, here's a link to our record verses other schools.

Edited February 24, 2012 by VideoEagle

rcade · February 24, 2012

You know, I totally agree with you about "coming-out-for-love-of-the-Mean-Green" because I've preached it for years. But we still have a section of the stadium set aside for visitors. And it's my belief that Texas State and possibly UTSA would regularly fill that section up and add a lot of noise to the game day atmosphere. They are also state Universities who's alumni base have a lot more in common with us than the Alumni base of either Rice or Tulsa.

Yep. Tulsa has 4,000 undergraduate students -- the smallest enrollment in the FBS. It's cool to play them, but I think the two Texas state schools in the WAC are much more compatible rivals.

rcade · February 24, 2012

It is time for the Belt to become something other than the move up league

I think the Sun Belt will always be the move-up league for the southeastern states in the league's footprint. Who else could it be, especially now that the WAC is dying?

Edited February 24, 2012 by rcade

GL2Greatness · February 24, 2012

We complain about no regional opponents, then complain that we would have to compete with teams for recruits, then we whine about how SMU held us down, but want to do the same thing. That cake must be really good.

all the worse whan SMU blocking UNT from the SWC is in fact not true

it is right here on page 94 of the Hayden Fry book

http://books.google.com/books?id=bANS-aNcpn4C&lpg=PA228&ots=XUK0nY1BNZ&dq=Hayden%20Fry%3A%20A%20High%20Porch%20Picnic&pg=PA94#v=onepage&q=north%20texas&f=false

there was no objection by SMU or TCU to UNT joining the SWC.....not sure how much more clear it could be

I can understand why people do not want more schools from Texas to compete with for recruits and attention, but complaining about SMU specifically when the fact is there is nothing to complain about just makes it laughable

and further down it even states that Hayden Fry was appreciative that SMU was willing to play them several times while he was at UNT.....SMU and UNT have played 32 times since 1922 with SMU not having a program for two of those years

so they have played every 2.7 (3) years......that is hardly avoiding someone that is not in the same conference and especially when one team was not even in D1-A for many of those years

at least some forum members are honest about not wanting the competition even if they are dishonest about how other schools have treated UNT in the past and ignore the facts and the words of the coach and AD at the time when much of what they are angry towards SMU was going on...and they want to claim the right to look out for their own best interest while vilifying those that do the same.....even if the accusations they make about the situation are false

Edited February 24, 2012 by GL2Greatness

MDH · February 24, 2012

Just to make a point, but I think Texas St has a lot more fans than UTSA. UTSA played @ SHSU this year and traveled a handful. Just because they came to the homegames in SA doesn't mean they're true fans, a lot of gimmick/freebie takers there. Texas St has a lot more tradition and alums in DFW., we have a history with them - I guarantee they'd bring more to Apogee than UTSA.

MeanGreenTexan · February 24, 2012

You know, I totally agree with you about "coming-out-for-love-of-the-Mean-Green" because I've preached it for years. But we still have a section of the stadium set aside for visitors. And it's my belief that Texas State and possibly UTSA would regularly fill that section up and add a lot of noise to the game day atmosphere. They are also state Universities who's alumni base have a lot more in common with us than the Alumni base of either Rice or Tulsa.

Good God, when did we become SMU with our attitude toward Texas St. and UTSA? As long as they are buying tickets, and paying for parking, and buying food at the concession stands, what's the problem?

OK. Gotcha.

I certainly believe the visitor sections would be full for TX St. I don't know about Tulsa, Rice, or UTSA, but I bet they would be pretty full. If what has been repeated here on GMG.com by guys like Greenminer is true about UTEP's alumni base in DFW, I bet they would fill up their section of Apogee.

I think the problem is that once UNT is in the same conference as UTSA and/or TX St., it would mean that we didn't make it into the "Alliance". We shouldn't be striving to be in the same conference with 2 new FBS schools (one of which just played their innaugural season of football last year).

I highly doubt the new "Alliance" conference will take TX St. seriously, and I certainly hope UNT is more alluring than UTSA.

MeanGreen61 · February 24, 2012

IMHO Tulsa would become a true conference rivalry game if we make it to CUSA. If some are so anxious to play Texas State and/or UTSA, I'd rather schedule them as OC opponents than be in the same conference.

Cr1028 · February 24, 2012

None. Belt doesn't need to be the FBS gateway for FCS schools. I could care less how fun & easy the trips are. If NT stays they need to add current FBS members if expansion is a must. Even though the conference is still viewed as a national doormat, it's been very stable.

Please, please, please, can we correct this saying?

I could care less = you care to a certain degree.

I couldn't care less = you don't care at all.

You just said that you DO care how fun and easy the trips are.

The misuse of that expression has burned me up ever since Prof. McPherson hammered it into my head.

TheColonyEagle · February 24, 2012

I say Neither.

I don't understand the fascination with these two schools. I've said this before but surely we did not make the commitment we've made to our athletic program to hope that 1AAs can bring fans so we can fill our stadium. If that's the case, we really need to forget it. (I still don't see where this ground swell of TX State fans or UTSA fans is going to come from. Do we think people are going to get excited because finally we can relive that "rivalry" with SWT?) Do we think they would bring more than a nationally ranked UH? I don't. And they brought what...3,000-4,000? I'M SICK OF HEARING BITCHING ABOUT WHAT VISITOR IS COMING TO DENTON. WHEN WE START WINNING, WE'RE GOING TO GET CROWDS. We had winning football but a lousy stadium. Then we got the stadium but had lousy football. WE ARE ON THE VERGE OF HAVING BOTH. No one on this board has EVER seen the combination of the two. I firmly believe it's not going to matter who we're playing when we start winning. The negative of playing a 1AA offsets the positive of having maybe 1,000 more visiting fans in the stands.

I also don't understand the comparison to SMU. "they look down on us so we shouldn't look down on UTSASWT" Really? OK, because SMU thinks they're better than us, we should be the bigger person and take care of the up and comers? Why? So we can drive 3.5 hours to a game?

We need to get our big boy pants on and stop seeing success for our program as a kick ass road trip.

If I'm a TCU alum, I'm thanking my lucky stars they didn't think the same way....

I'm sure UTSA and TXSTATE are fine schools. I have nothing against them. But if we're looking to join up with them, we're looking backward and not looking forward. It's about perception. I know it sucks, but it's true. What do we want....a better perception, or a great road trip? Do we want our national perception to improve or do we want a regional conference? If you're including a 1AA and a start up to get the regional conference, you can't have both. If you want a regional conference, let's get in the lone star conference. You can drive to every game.

If we don't get into the CUSA/MWC alliance and we're stuck in the sunbelt with 1AA startups....IMHO we're F'd.

Cr1028 · February 24, 2012

I agree with those that chose Texas State. We have a history with them; they have an established football program; their stadium is 10 minutes from my house. :thumbsu:

I think we let UTSA play a few years to build their program and then look at the addition. They were playing against NAIA schools this year. We made FIU wait 3 years to move up(which is the fastest in history BTW). That means we should hold off on UTSA until at least the 2014 season or later. I don't think they should move up faster than FIU did. Let their recruits become upperclassmen first.

casual fan · February 24, 2012

Wow! I have an idea. Let's treat UTSA & TS like smu treated us. We don't need them just because both have over 30,000 students and are in easy driving distance. We don't need their help to fill our stadium because we have WK, FIU, FA, etc. Plus who in their right mind would want to spend a weekend in San Antonio and watch UNT play in the Alamodome? Besides, I have a full tank of gas. Now exactly where is Troy?

cwb · February 24, 2012

Please, please, please, can we correct this saying?

I could care less = you care to a certain degree.
I couldn't care less = you don't care at all.

You just said that you DO care how fun and easy the trips are.

The misuse of that expression has burned me up ever since Prof. McPherson hammered it into my head.

Good luck with that. We can't even get there/they're/their right most of the time. How about a thread in the pie forum on pet peeves such as these. Would be a fun way to pass time until spring training. Another favorite: are in place of our. Oh, I should of saved that for the new thread.

SilverEagle · February 24, 2012

I say Neither.

I don't understand the fascination with these two schools. I've said this before but surely we did not make the commitment we've made to our athletic program to hope that 1AAs can bring fans so we can fill our stadium. If that's the case, we really need to forget it. (I still don't see where this ground swell of TX State fans or UTSA fans is going to come from. Do we think people are going to get excited because finally we can relive that "rivalry" with SWT?) Do we think they would bring more than a nationally ranked UH? I don't. And they brought what...3,000-4,000? I'M SICK OF HEARING BITCHING ABOUT WHAT VISITOR IS COMING TO DENTON. WHEN WE START WINNING, WE'RE GOING TO GET CROWDS. We had winning football but a lousy stadium. Then we got the stadium but had lousy football. WE ARE ON THE VERGE OF HAVING BOTH. No one on this board has EVER seen the combination of the two. I firmly believe it's not going to matter who we're playing when we start winning. The negative of playing a 1AA offsets the positive of having maybe 1,000 more visiting fans in the stands.

I also don't understand the comparison to SMU. "they look down on us so we shouldn't look down on UTSASWT" Really? OK, because SMU thinks they're better than us, we should be the bigger person and take care of the up and comers? Why? So we can drive 3.5 hours to a game?

We need to get our big boy pants on and stop seeing success for our program as a kick ass road trip.

If I'm a TCU alum, I'm thanking my lucky stars they didn't think the same way....

I'm sure UTSA and TXSTATE are fine schools. I have nothing against them. But if we're looking to join up with them, we're looking backward and not looking forward. It's about perception. I know it sucks, but it's true. What do we want....a better perception, or a great road trip? Do we want our national perception to improve or do we want a regional conference? If you're including a 1AA and a start up to get the regional conference, you can't have both. If you want a regional conference, let's get in the lone star conference. You can drive to every game.

If we don't get into the CUSA/MWC alliance and we're stuck in the sunbelt with 1AA startups....IMHO we're F'd.

Backwards? Perception? I don't call facilities like this..

http://txstatebobcats.com/photo_gallery.aspx?gallery=153&photo=/custompages/gallery/Jerry_D_and_Linda_Gregg_Fields_Bobcat_Stadium_West_Side_Complex_09_06_2009/thumbs/_middle_IMG_3507.jpg

looking backwards. Nor does it project a poor perception.

In fact, as much as I love Apogee stadium, the facilities at Texas St, are just as nice.

MeanGreenTexan · February 24, 2012

Wow! I have an idea. Let's treat UTSA & TS like smu treated us. We don't need them just because both have over 30,000 students and are in easy driving distance. We don't need their help to fill our stadium because we have WK, FIU, FA, etc. Plus who in their right mind would want to spend a weekend in San Antonio and watch UNT play in the Alamodome? Besides, I have a full tank of gas. Now exactly where is Troy?

I can't speak for everyone here, but my reasoning for not wanting to be in the same conference with either of them is because I would rather be in the "Alliance" conference, which will probably not have TX St. or UTSA... Not because I feel superior to those schools "like smu treated us".

And I'll keep saying: aside from 2 sections, we should not need any school's help in filling Apogee. Gotta get a winner on the field and get some quality opponents in Denton. The stands will be full of Green if those 2 things come together.

Cr1028 · February 24, 2012

On 2/24/2012 at 3:03 PM, TheColonyEagle said:

I say Neither.

I don't understand the fascination with these two schools. I've said this before but surely we did not make the commitment we've made to our athletic program to hope that 1AAs can bring fans so we can fill our stadium. If that's the case, we really need to forget it. (I still don't see where this ground swell of TX State fans or UTSA fans is going to come from. Do we think people are going to get excited because finally we can relive that "rivalry" with SWT?) Do we think they would bring more than a nationally ranked UH? I don't. And they brought what...3,000-4,000? I'M SICK OF HEARING BITCHING ABOUT WHAT VISITOR IS COMING TO DENTON. WHEN WE START WINNING, WE'RE GOING TO GET CROWDS. We had winning football but a lousy stadium. Then we got the stadium but had lousy football. WE ARE ON THE VERGE OF HAVING BOTH. No one on this board has EVER seen the combination of the two. I firmly believe it's not going to matter who we're playing when we start winning. The negative of playing a 1AA offsets the positive of having maybe 1,000 more visiting fans in the stands.

I also don't understand the comparison to SMU. "they look down on us so we shouldn't look down on UTSASWT" Really? OK, because SMU thinks they're better than us, we should be the bigger person and take care of the up and comers? Why? So we can drive 3.5 hours to a game?

We need to get our big boy pants on and stop seeing success for our program as a kick ass road trip.

If I'm a TCU alum, I'm thanking my lucky stars they didn't think the same way....

I'm sure UTSA and TXSTATE are fine schools. I have nothing against them. But if we're looking to join up with them, we're looking backward and not looking forward. It's about perception. I know it sucks, but it's true. What do we want....a better perception, or a great road trip? Do we want our national perception to improve or do we want a regional conference? If you're including a 1AA and a start up to get the regional conference, you can't have both. If you want a regional conference, let's get in the lone star conference. You can drive to every game.

If we don't get into the CUSA/MWC alliance and we're stuck in the sunbelt with 1AA startups....IMHO we're F'd.

Texas Public Universities

Certified Fall 2010 Enrollments

The University of Texas at Austin ---------51,195

Texas A&M University ------------------------49,129

University of Houston -------------------------38,752

University of North Texas --------------------36,067

The University of Texas at Arlington -----32,975

Texas State University - San Marcos ---32,572

Texas Tech University ------------------------31,587

The University of Texas at San Antonio 30,258

The University of Texas at El Paso ------22,051

Texas State will soon approach us in enrollment. They have a "commuter school" reputation just like us. I don't see how we are so far superior when it makes a lot of sense to both schools to play. I know many Texas State grads. I have never met a MTSU, FIU, FAU, WKU, ArkStU, ULL, ULM, Troy, or USouthAlabama grad.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Cr1028
Thanks Adler

GL2Greatness · February 24, 2012

Texas Public Universities
Certified Fall 2010 Enrollments

The University of Texas at Austin ---------51,195
Texas A&M University ------------------------49,129
University of Houston -------------------------38,752
University of North Texas --------------------36,067
The University of Texas at Arlington -----32,975
Texas State University - San Marcos ---32,572
Texas Tech University ------------------------31,587
The University of Texas at San Antonio 30,258
The University of Texas at El Paso ------22,051

Texas State will soon approach us in enrollment. They have a "commuter school" reputation just like us. I don't see how we are so far superior when it makes alot of sense to both schools to play. I know many Texas State grads. I have never met a MTSU, FIU, FAU, WKU, ArkStU, ULL, ULM, Troy, or USouthAlabama grad.

here they are for 2011 from the THECB

the TAMU Galveston number should be added in with TAMU since they are counted as the same university and considered TAMU Students

Texas A&M University 49,861

Texas A&M University at Galveston 2,035

The University of Texas at Austin 51,112

University of Houston 39,820

University of North Texas 35,694

Texas State University-San Marcos 34,087

The University of Texas at Arlington 33,439

Texas Tech University 32,149

The University of Texas at San Antonio 30,968

The University of Texas at El Paso 22,582

The University of Texas at Dallas 18,864

and here is dorm space....so TxState is shedding the commuter school rep faster as well....with slightly fewer students and slightly more on campus housing

edit to order the numbers

Edited February 24, 2012 by GL2Greatness

wardly · February 24, 2012

Geez. We could just join the Southland and play a bunch of Texas teams. Hell, let's just join the Lone Star conference.

there are a few Southland schools in the Belt[which we won twice in 12 years].i don't think a program that has won 18 games[5 of which were last year] in the past 7 years in one of the weakest conferences in the nation can turn up their noses at anyone.

MeanGreenTeeth · February 24, 2012

there are a few Southland schools in the Belt[which we won twice in 12 years].i don't think a program that has won 18 games[5 of which were last year] in the past 7 years in one of the weakest conferences in the nation can turn up their noses at anyone.

What do you mean?!?!? This has nothing to do with turning up our nose on anyone. I have nothing against UTSA or TxState. It has nothing, nothing, nothing, to do with them. All I care about it what is good for UNT. Having to compete against 2 more Texas schools for recruits and attention is NOT GOOD FOR UNT..period. It has nothing to do with vanity. It has nothing to do with how good our program is vs. theirs. I really am completed stunned with some of the folks on here. All that matters is building this program.

foutsrouts · February 24, 2012

What do you mean?!?!? This has nothing to do with turning up our nose on anyone. I have nothing against UTSA or TxState. It has nothing, nothing, nothing, to do with them. All I care about it what is good for UNT. Having to compete against 2 more Texas schools for recruits and attention is NOT GOOD FOR UNT..period. It has nothing to do with vanity. It has nothing to do with how good our program is vs. theirs. I really am completed stunned with some of the folks on here. All that matters is building this program.

Yes. Embracing newbies to the scene simply because of proximity isn't a great idea at this point IMO. OOC fine, becoming joined at the hip, NO!

GL2Greatness · February 24, 2012

What do you mean?!?!? This has nothing to do with turning up our nose on anyone. I have nothing against UTSA or TxState. It has nothing, nothing, nothing, to do with them. All I care about it what is good for UNT. Having to compete against 2 more Texas schools for recruits and attention is NOT GOOD FOR UNT..period. It has nothing to do with vanity. It has nothing to do with how good our program is vs. theirs. I really am completed stunned with some of the folks on here. All that matters is building this program.

does this apply to SMU as well or just UNT?.....even though SMU never objected to UNT in the SWC :ph34r: :unsure:

foutsrouts · February 24, 2012

there are a few Southland schools in the Belt[which we won twice in 12 years].i don't think a program that has won 18 games[5 of which were last year] in the past 7 years in one of the weakest conferences in the nation can turn up their noses at anyone.

But we're currently in the process of trying to climb out of those depths of football despair. I think the timing is such that we need to give ourselves one more solid chance at separation, because if we start accepting this pattern now, there will likely be more Southland teams to follow.