Thoughts on this TCU mess

emmitt01 · February 16, 2012

It's not often that I comment on sports related subjects on this board from a "professional" perspective but this TCU story just kinda begs for commentary. Feel free to move this to another board as I'm sure the responses will be heated (though not necessarily correct). Let's examine the prevailing thoughts on this story:

1)It's just weed. This one should be pretty simple for most but somehow it isn't. The question "Is it illegal?" should pretty much sum it up but still people want to argue to merits of marijuana's illegality as if that could somehow retroactively make it all ok. These were student-athletes, on scholarship, who were perfectly aware that what they were doing was illegal...and did it anyway. We could devote pages upon pages to the relative harms of marijuana or how helpful decriminalization could be. I could also ask every "legalize it" person where the big lobby to do just that is. If it's so simple then let's just write our congressman and push it on through, right? Decriminalization should be that simple...so why hasn't congress done it? Could it be that elected officials realize that it's political suicide because their voting base would be against it? Hmmm, and I thought it was so simple.

2)The cops should be chasing real criminals. If you own a store and I come in and steal a candy bar I'm a criminal. If I steal a flatscreen TV I'm a criminal. If I get a speeding ticket...criminal. If I'm DWI and kill a family of four...criminal. If the law is on the books it's the job of our men and women in law enforcement to enforce it. We don't get the luxury of picking and choosing which laws we want to see as "big" or "small" that day. The TCU and FW police were responding to student and citizen complaints...that part of this story seems to get conveniently forgotten. They didn't just walk into detail and say "What should be do today? We haven't picked on TCU lately, let's do that." And I've executed one too many search warrants at weed houses (you know, small time crime) only to find AK-47's and body armor inside. Am I saying Tanner Brock and his cohorts are Tony Montana? Nope...but how do you think we get to the Tony Montanas? Yep, we flip the rich white kids who use them as a connect. And this argument has always been comical to me because it assumes that "chasing small crime" and "chasing big crime" are mutually exclusive. As if any police officer has even been flagged down by a rape victim and said "I'm sorry maam, I'd love to help but that guy just ran a red light." Ted Bundy didn't elude authorities because all police resources were being funneled to a jaywalking initiative.

3)They're ruining these kids' lives by busting them for misdemeanors. First, let's have a little legal lesson. Delivery of marijuana in an amount over seven grams is a FELONY. I could walk into any neighborhood in Texas and pull this off...it only takes $40. Yep, two dub sacks. Tanner Brock sold the undercover officer two hundred dollars worth. Unless he's selling some killer strain or is ripping his clientele off he's making felony deliveries. (Again, the question of legality is a moot point) But let's frame the debate in a different manner. If I'm inside a dope house, let's just say a crack house, and I find $5,000 lying in a kitchen drawer I'm supposed to seize it and turn it in as evidence of proceeds of drug sales. But let's just imagine I haven't paid my MGC dues yet. I'm not a major donor, I only give at the $500 level. Why not just take $500 from the %5000 I found and turn in $4500? Not one of you could argue that it's not going to a good cause and I'm taking it from one of those "real criminals" afterall. Can't we let this particular felony slide? And if we can agree that we can couldn't we allow me to help fund $50,000 of a new baseball stadium at NT if I don't take it all from the same dope dealer? Spare me the rhetoric about how I'm an officer of the law and shouldn't steal...if I can give some nebulous argument about how taking from felons shouldn't be illegal then I'm justified, right? And if you indict me aren't you ruining my life over something small time...just like people are claiming about these TCU players? Think about my family!!!

4)The media and the police are picking on TCU. Apparently there's a contingent of TCU fans (and some nationwide if you read the ESPN comments) who think this should have been kept in house and quiet. When Terrell Pryor sold his football jersey it was national news. When Adrian Peterson drove a Lexus for six months without making payments it was national news. And these weren't criminal allegations. When a portion of our football team failed a drug test it was newsworthy...and, no, Vito wasn't the bad guy for reporting the news. TCU's story involves SEVENTEEN people arrested THUS FAR for marijuana...and cocaine, and ecstasy, and pills. Just how do you justify burying this story? I'm at a loss.

Fire away potheads. :rolleyes:

Edited February 16, 2012 by emmitt01

Censored by Laurie · February 16, 2012

I agree with the first sentence of both points 1 and 2. Kinda stopped reading after that.

untjim1995 · February 16, 2012

Great post--I get an even better understanding of the walk you guys make every day when I read stuff like this.

Let me be the first to tell you how much I appreciate what you do, especially in Dallas. I knwo there are quite a few other police forces that would have a bit less "activity" to hassle with than in Dallas. You guys really are heroes--its one of things I try to teach my children every day, so that they always know that you guys are out there trying to protect us from the bad stuff that both bad and good people choose to do every day.

Green Mean · February 16, 2012

I just don't see how this is different with any other campus out there. Take out TCU and insert any other school and drugs are available. It shouldn't be a shock.

Eagle-96 · February 16, 2012

I think when all is said and done most of these kids will end up with probation, community service, and fines if it is their first offense. Not sure that any of these kids will do hard time in the big house. The biggest impact will be on their future employment opportunities. There are not many jobs anymore where you don't have to fill out the section of the application that asks if you have ever been arrested. Those that are covicted of felonies will never be allowed to vote or own a gun again. I am in no way condoning what they did. As Emmitt stated, they knew what they were doing was illegal. I am pretty sure these arrests are the first step in moving up the food chain to get to the bigger players and it won't take Serpico to get these kids to talk. I am also sure there are probably a few hundred kids at TCU that simultaneously flushed their stash yesterday in the fear that the police will be knocking on their doors as those already arrested give up names that they sold to. A bigger question is that: If, say, 60 football players failed their drug tests what does Patterson do. You can't very well suspend the entire team for several games next year. Not to mention those on the team that this might be strike 2 or 3 and subject to being kicked off the team. Not sure if the test results are subject to an FOI request since TCU is private but this could really set the team back on and off the field.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Eagle-96

emmitt01 · February 16, 2012

I just don't see how this is different with any other campus out there. Take out TCU and insert any other school and drugs are available. It shouldn't be a shock.

I agree completely. It happens everywhere. But that's another one of my pet peeves, the people who say "why are you arresting me, that guy did it or everyone does it". I harken back to the days of my mother and "if your friends jumped off a cliff...".

A guy on the ESPN site had a funny comment on this point. He said "I'm gonna go upstairs and beat my wife now. I know my neighbor does it all the time." but wait, family violence is illegal....ohhhh yeah so is weed.

FirefightnRick · February 16, 2012

I just don't see how this is different with any other campus out there. Take out TCU and insert any other school and drugs are available. It shouldn't be a shock.

If you read Emmitt's post you saw where he said the cops didn't just show up for detail one morning and decide to jack with TCU. They received complaints. I'm hearing some of the complaints came from parents of recruits, who were coming back from their visits with bad reports of drug abuse. This isn't an occupy the tent drug usage event or kids going to class high the morning after the party, event, this was scholarship athletes running a delivery system on and near campus.

I don't understand how you cannot see the difference?

Rick

Edited February 16, 2012 by FirefightnRick

Mean Green 93-98 · February 16, 2012

I just don't see how this is different with any other campus out there. Take out TCU and insert any other school and drugs are available. It shouldn't be a shock.

And wherever drug dealers are found, they should be arrested.

untgirl04 · February 16, 2012

I think when all is said and done most of these kids will end up with probation, community service, and fines if it is their first offense. Not sure that any of these kids will do hard time in the big house. The biggest impact will be on their future employment opportunities. There are not many jobs anymore where you don't have to fill out the section of the application that asks if you have ever been arrested. Those that are covicted of felonies will never be allowed to vote or own a gun again. I am in no way condoning what they did. As Emmitt stated, they knew what they were doing was illegal. I am pretty sure these arrests are the first step in moving up the food chain to get to the bigger players and it won't take Serpico to get these kids to talk. I am also sure there are probably a few hundred kids at TCU that simultaneously flushed their stash yesterday in the fear that the police will be knocking on their doors as those already arrested give up names that they sold to. A bigger question is that: If, say, 60 football players failed their drug tests what does Patterson do. You can't very well suspend the entire team for several games next year. Not to mention those on the team that this might be strike 2 or 3 and subject to being kicked off the team. Not sure if the test results are subject to an FOI request since TCU is private but this could really set the team back on and off the field.

Patterson is definitely going to have challenges with this one. My armchair coach opinion:

1. For third strike guys, it's the end of the line. You have to stay tough on this one, otherwise any future threats are ineffective.

2. Given the reported number of guys who supposedly failed the drug test, bring in drug counseling for the entire team. Even the clean guys.

3. Announce to the team that there will be random drug tests for the remainder of the year, and the new policy is one strike and you're out.

4. Follow through with the threat.

It may seriously affect TCU's football performance this year, but you know, I think the entire NCAA would respect them more for taking the stand. If I were a TCU alum and the university did the above, I'd increase my donations and be proud to be associated with a school that takes such a strong stand on drug abuse.

Green Mean · February 16, 2012

If you read Emmitt's post you saw where he said the cops didn't just show up for detail one morning and decide to jack with TCU. They received complaints. I'm hearing some of the complaints came from parents of recruits, who were coming back from their visits with bad reports of drug abuse. This isn't an occupy the tent drug usage event or kids going to class high the morning after the party, event, this was scholarship athletes running a delivery system on and near campus.

I don't understand how you cannot see the difference?

Rick

I've read and heard most of the details that have come out. I see the difference. I just don't see it as being this mega shock because it happens everywhere on every campus in the country.

That said if it is illegal then it is illegal....They don't deserve a pass just because they're athletes etc. If I'm authorities I'm less concerned about the students and more focused on the big time suppliers...I think that is who they're really after in my opinion.

UNTLifer · February 16, 2012

I just don't see how this is different with any other campus out there. Take out TCU and insert any other school and drugs are available. It shouldn't be a shock.

You're probably right, and that still doesn't make it right. Drugs were available at North Texas when I was a student. Guess what, I chose not to partake.

Green Mean · February 16, 2012

You're probably right, and that still doesn't make it right. Drugs were available at North Texas when I was a student. Guess what, I chose not to partake.

Wholeheartedly agree. It is not right whatsoever and I am in your shoes...I was always around it and always saw it at school but I chose never to partake in it myself and I'm thankful I didn't.

These folks should definitely get expelled from school.

Harry · February 16, 2012

And I've executed one too many search warrants at weed houses (you know, small time crime) only to find AK-47's and body armor inside.

Wow - very telling... Man my hat's off to you for what you do Emmitt. That's some dangerous stuff.

Green to the Bone · February 16, 2012

Comparing this to rules that apply to the non-athletic-scholarship student world -- that is, people on some form of federally underwritten student aid -- might be instructive.

A drug conviction, even for just possession, at any time in the past used to be an automatic disqualifier for federal aid. Now, even a sale conviction isn't an automatic bar any more -- a reflection of changing times.

I imagine the answer to whether there's less or more tolerance for scholarship athletes depends on the school and the individuals involved. Anyway, there's no absolute in how institutions handle these things.

Here's the current FAFSA language:

Have you been convicted for the possession or sale of illegal drugs for an offense that occurred while you were receiving federal student aid (grants, loans, and / or work-study)?

This is question 23 on the paper FAFSA.

This question cannot be left blank.

Select No if:

You have never had a conviction for possessing or selling illegal drugs.

The conviction was not a state or federal offense.

The conviction occurred before you were 18 years of age and you were not tried as an adult.

The conviction was removed from your record.

The offense that led to your conviction did not occur during a period of enrollment for which you were receiving federal student aid (grants, loans, or work-study).

If you select Yes, you may still be eligible for federal student aid. Additional questions will display to help you determine your eligibility. Past convictions do not automatically make you ineligible for student aid.

Even if you are not eligible for federal student aid, complete and submit your Free Application for Federal Student Aid (FAFSA) because you may be eligible for state or school financial aid.

FirefightnRick · February 16, 2012

Wow - very telling... Man my hat's off to you for what you do Emmitt. That's some dangerous stuff.

And Ill just post this so he doesnt have to, but out of respect to those here with weak stomachs, he is only mentioning the top water stuff.

Rick

forevereagle · February 16, 2012

3)They're ruining these kids' lives by busting them for misdemeanors.

Great post. this argument is the worst of the bunch to me. The police aren't ruining these kids' lives, their own choices did that. They knew, whether they admit it or not, that there was a chance they would get caught.

KRAM1 · February 16, 2012

Emmitt is 100% correct. Great post...however, one small point...it was not "just" marijuana that the cops found and were sold by these TCU kids....I tried like crazy to point this legal vs illegal stuff to all three of our kids as they were growing up, and stressed how just one little "incident" could change the course of their entire lives and they needed to think long and hard about their choices. They are choices and one can CHOOSE to obey the law and avoid the penalties or they can choose for whatever reason to "take their chances".

Our youngest is now a Navy Physician after having attended a US Federal military academy and medical school at USUHS (Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences) in Washington, DC...actually Bethesda. He has now served proudly as a flight surgeon in Iraq and is currently in residency in San Diego, CA. His wife is also a Navy Doc...my point...NONE OF THIS would have been available to him should he have made the choices these TCU kids did. His life would have been entirely different...and it's a cinch he would not have had the opportunity to meet the "love of his life" while in med school.

The "costs" in this sort of thing go way beyond the legal coasts and they impact so many people. Think of what this is doing to a fine university in Ft. Worth and all the people who have worked so hard to help TCU through the years. Think about the progress that football program has made in recent years...this could end up costing a pretty darn good coach his job when all is said and done...what about the assistant coaches and their families should something happen to Patterson and on and on and on. Think of the recruits that will no longer visit TCU and the donors who might just cut back or withhold donations in the near term? What about the families of these kids who will suffer emotionally and financially because of the selfish actions (and that's exactly what it is...selfish) of these kids.

This is a mess and it will get a bunch worse before it gets better. At this point it appears that TCU (unlike Penn State) is handling this mess head on with no excuses...we'll all see how it unfolds going forward. Personally, I feel very poorly for TCU as a university right now, it's students, alums, faculty and staff. They all deserve better than what these kids did....

GREAT post Emmitt! And, from a guy whio is on the front lines with this stuff every day and knows exactly what he is talking about. People...listen up here to what Emmitt is saying.

The Fake Lonnie Finch · February 16, 2012

Emmitt,

I get into these discussions from time to time with friends of mine who went on to become defense attorneys (i.e., those who didn't have grades good enough to get jobs at law firms and who didn't have the discipline or humility to work in a district attorney's office...legal slackers, if you will).

As long as a drug is illegal, it's illegal. That mean, it's not legal. For lack of better words, it is not legal.

Marijuana, is not legal in Texas. It doesn't matter what a pothead or casual user thinks the law should be or might be in the future. It's not legal. It is not legal.

Defense attorneys who give me the "it wastes time" - "there are bigger criminals" - "you ruin people's lives with these charges." Baloney.

People involved in small time crime more often than not graduate up to bigger crimes if they get away with their small crimes. And, even if they don't get away with them, they go up anyway.

As for ruining their lives, these kids at TCU...give me a break. The majority of them are going to be upper middle class or wealthy. I doubt very much they don't somehow land on their feet, thanks to the attorneys daddy's money will buy.

But, for arguments sake, let's say they were poor and downtrodden. It's not, in my mind, a bad thing to catch them early and give them an opportunity to straighten out and become a more productive member of society. Doesn't mean they will; but, here's a chance.

Further, a bunch of rich, white kids at an expensive private university - and athletes whose way is being paid by the university and grants - are not good examples of pitiable victims. They are, at minimum, the following:

(1) Insolent,

(2) Disrespectful,

(3) Haughty, and

(4) Wasteful

To whom? Everyone. Their parents who provided them the opportunity to learn at a private school, gave them nice cars, pay for their rent at decent houses while in college.

For the athletes, the school and its donors do not work and contribute annually with the hopes that they will turn out drug dealers into society. A free ride not good enough? Meals, housing, books, and tuition paid for isn't enough?

Give me a damn break with these kids. I went to North Texas working two jobs, sometimes going part time when I couldn't afford to go full time, driving old, used cars, rooming with two other people in the same situation, sweating out rent and utilities every month, shopping at Sack-N-Save, with our parents contributing only when they could.

And, I'm supposed to have some sort of pity for these dope-smoking, drug-dealing ingrates?

F*ck the lot of them. Many of us came from far worse circumstances in life than those kids have ever faced and didn't turn to dealing dope, coke, and pills on the side.

I'm guilty as hell for walking from our apartment over to Rick's, Otay's, the Flying Tomato, and/or Riprock's (sometimes all in the same evening), drinking heavily, and getting laid.

I broke no earthly law. I besmirched nobody's name but my own. I wasted no one else's time and money but my own...and, whichever young lass fell prey to my Mean Green charm for the evening.

Feel sorry for these schmucks at TCU? No way. I hope they learn a lesson and straighten up, of course.

But, to me, these aren't kids dealing to survive like maybe a kid in broken down south Dallas would. These are spoiled, insolent brats trying to get over on everyone who has worked hard to give them a break in life and hold the door open for them to walk into a comfortable adulthood.

All they have to do is go to school and stay out of trouble, spending daddy's or TCU's money along the way? Man, what a life. These plastic duckfart lickers get what they deserve...a little shame before daddy hires an attorney to sweep it all under the rug for them.

Edited February 16, 2012 by The Fake Lonnie Finch

BeanCounterGrad'03 · February 16, 2012

Emmitt,
I get into these discussions from time to time with friends of mine who went on to become defense attorneys (i.e., those who didn't have grades good enough to get jobs at law firms and who didn't have the discipline or humility to work in a district attorney's office...legal slackers, if you will).

As long as a drug is illegal, it's illegal. That mean, it's not legal. For lack of better words, it is not legal.

Marijuana, is not legal in Texas. It doesn't matter what a pothead or casual user thinks the law should be or might be in the future. It's not legal. It is not legal.

Defense attorneys who give me the "it wastes time" - "there are bigger criminals" - "you ruin people's lives with these charges." Baloney.

People involved in small time crime more often than not graduate up to bigger crimes if they get away with their small crimes. And, even if they don't get away with them, they go up anyway.

As for ruining their lives, these kids at TCU...give me a break. The majority of them are going to be upper middle class or wealthy. I doubt very much they don't somehow land on their feet, thanks to the attorneys daddy's money will buy.

But, for arguments sake, let's say they were poor and downtrodden. It's not, in my mind, a bad thing to catch them early and give them an opportunity to straighten out and become a more productive member of society. Doesn't mean they will; but, here's a chance.

Further, a bunch of rich, white kids at an expensive private university - and athletes whose way is being paid by the university and grants - are not good examples of pitiable victims. They are, at minimum, the following:

(1) Insolent,
(2) Disrespectful,
(3) Haughty, and
(4) Wasteful

To whom? Everyone. Their parents who provided them the opportunity to learn at a private school, gave them nice cars, pay for their rent at decent houses while in college.

For the athletes, the school and its donors do not work and contribute annually with the hopes that they will turn out drug dealers into society. A free ride not good enough? Meals, housing, books, and tuition paid for isn't enough?

Give me a damn break with these kids. I went to North Texas working two jobs, sometimes going part time when I couldn't afford to go full time, driving old, used cars, rooming with two other people in the same situation, sweating out rent and utilities every month, shopping at Sack-N-Save, with our parents contributing only when they could.

And, I'm supposed to have some sort of pity for these dope-smoking, drug-dealing ingrates?

F*ck the lot of them. Many of us came from far worse circumstances in life than those kids have ever faced and didn't turn to dealing dope, coke, and pills on the side.

I'm guilty as hell for walking from our apartment over to Rick's, Otay's, the Flying Tomato, and/or Riprock's (sometimes all in the same evening), drinking heavily, and getting laid.

I broke no earthly law. I besmirched nobody's name but my own. I wasted no one else's time and money but my own...and, whichever young lass fell prey to my Mean Green charm for the evening.

Feel sorry for these schmucks at TCU? No way. I hope they learn a lesson and straighten up, of course.

But, to me, these aren't kids dealing to survive like maybe a kid in broken down south Dallas would. These are spoiled, insolent brats trying to get over on everyone who has worked hard to give them a break in life and hold the door open for them to walk into a comfortable adulthood.

All they have to do is go to school and stay out of trouble, spending daddy's or TCU's money along the way? Man, what a life. These plastic duckfart lickers get what they deserve...a little shame before daddy hires an attorney to sweep it all under the rug for them.

So much gold in this here post.

Rudy · February 16, 2012

Great points Emmitt, but you forget, this is the one job that everyone knows how to do better than us. :lol:

But he is absolutly right on all points.

And wherever drug dealers are found, they should be arrested.

And that is what is getting lost by alot of people. They weren't just smoking dope, or experimenting with acid, THEY WERE DEALING.

SilverEagle · February 16, 2012

Well, regardless of how you feel about "weed" and whether or not it should be legalized (I vote yes, if nothing else, we're passing up a large amount of tax revenue) the fact is it's still an illegal substance and they were selling it in LARGE amounts. Large enough in fact, that it generated a lot of complaints from the general public. I assume that these complaints went to the TCU officials first, who then got the local police involved. At that point, the FWPD did not have the option (assuming they ever do) to do legal "triage" on the matter and shelve it.

Situations like this always get worse and more dangerous(Emmitt's AK-47 comment) if left alone by local authorities/officials. Many innocent people could have eventually gotten hurt.

One other comment. I wonder if we'll hear Coach Mac mention Grey Goose Vodka again in the near future. It's certainly a legal substance, but........

Edited February 16, 2012 by SilverEagle

rcade · February 16, 2012

It's just weed. This one should be pretty simple for most but somehow it isn't. The question "Is it illegal?" should pretty much sum it up but still people want to argue to merits of marijuana's illegality as if that could somehow retroactively make it all ok. These were student-athletes, on scholarship, who were perfectly aware that what they were doing was illegal...and did it anyway.

Responding to this point, rather than the TCU controversy as a whole ...

Speeding is illegal too. Everyone who does it is perfectly aware they are doing it. Speeding can kill people.

Should an athlete caught speeding be kicked off the team?

I think the prosecution of pot smokers is a crime. How many violent criminals get out early because of prisons overcrowded by non-violent drug offenders?

Edited February 16, 2012 by rcade

Mean Green 93-98 · February 16, 2012

How many violent criminals get out early because of prisons overcrowded by non-violent drug offenders?

I give up. How many?

foutsrouts · February 16, 2012

I give up. How many?

I would venture to guess that the number is close to zero as far as pot is concerned, since pot SMOKERS haven't been going to prison around here for the past 40 years or so, and not too many people who aren't dealing get nabbed with felony amounts. I guess growers for personal use could be the exception, since unless it has changed in recent years, growing any amount is a felony.