Vitriolic Hatred Of SMU: Why?

[Harry]

This. I just wish SMU and UNT would walk separate paths and not begrudge the other for it. I have zero hate or ill feelings towards UNT, but I would be perfectly content with never playing them again...in any sport

What exactly drives your being content with never playing us? I think if you could reveal it we might get to the bottom of some of our issues. Wouldn't both schools benefit from playing each other? Doesn't SMU and UNT need to do everything we can to drive interest in this pro sports town? Orsini seems to think so or he wouldn't have scheduled a 4 year series with us. I think ignoring us may come back to bite you. We're not going anywhere, we've made significant investment in our facilities - enrollment is strong...location is in a major growth area.. for the life of me, I can't understand why can't North Texas and SMU have a positive mutually beneficial relationship and co-exist?

[PlummMeanGreen]

This. I just wish SMU and UNT would walk separate paths and not begrudge the other for it. I have zero hate or ill feelings towards UNT, but I would be perfectly content with never playing them again...in any sport

There you go and then what is the title of this thread again?

Fact is, without Texas public universities (of which UNT pleads guilty of being one of those) for SMU to have most years coat-tailed onto (especially in your SWC days), where would SMU's athletic program be today? Why some of you are talking out of both sides of your mouths is what some of us would wonder about, too, even on this thread.

And if not for this upcoming 4 game series, you've most of the time had your wish of our never playing each other.

Honestly though, we really think we know (and have for a long time) why SMU is this way toward UNT and BMW's, Polo shirts and daddy's trust fund for Junior doesn't play as much a part of this as many traditionally think but the part that SMU'ers will never admit to is the part of how the UNT System (with now a Law School a few miles from SMU and new Pharmacy School on the horizon) looms in every direction from the SMU campus.

Another area that some tunnel-visioned SMU'er will never admit to is how many of their grads thru the decades have received their post umdergrad degrees from UNT's outstanding Masters and Phd's programs. The late great SMU alum Lamar Hunt even found his longtime/lifetime wife (Norma) at UNT so even SMU's most elite have benefitted from UNT in more ways than one

GMG!.

Edited February 9, 2012 by PlummMeanGreen

[Green Mean]

There you go and then what is the title of this thread again?

Fact is, without Texas public universities (of which UNT pleads guilty of being one of those) for SMU to have most years coat-tailed onto (especially in your SWC days), where would SMU's athletic program be today? Why are you talking out of both sides of your mouths is what I wonder about.

And if not for this upcoming 4 game series, you've most of the time had your wish of our never playing each other.

Honestly though, we really think we know (and have for a long time) why SMU is this way toward UNT and BMW's, Polo shirts and daddy's trust fund for Junior doesn't play as much a part of this as many traditionally think but the part that SMU'ers will never admit to is the part of how the UNT System (with now a Law School a few miles from SMU and new Pharmacy School on the horizon) looms in every direction from the SMU campus.

Another area that some tunnel-visioned SMU'er will never admit to is how many of their grads thru the decades have received their post umdergrad degrees from UNT's outstanding Masters and Phd's programs. The late great SMU alum Lamar Hunt even found his longtime/lifetime wife (Norma) at UNT so even SMU's most elite have benefitted from UNT in more ways than one

GMG!.

This isn't an issue between a private vs. a public school. I could care less a school is one or the other. SMU didn't necessarily coat-tailed with anybody...they've had a decent past, history and they just so happen to be affiliated with the other big boys for most of history. Wherever they are is because they've earned it. If it hasn't been on the field then it's been via funding, commitment, money, past history etc. We don't exactly have this unbelievable tradition of winning and winning at the highest level. We are where we are because of NT's doing...don't go blaming SMU for our own EFF UPS.

And again as far as the trust funder, pink polo wearing people you're referring too...you obviously don't know very many students at SMU today...most are the polar opposite of that. Do they exist? Sure they do but I had plenty of classmates at UNT who were the same exact people you described.

[BeanCounterGrad'03]

I'm not ancient. I'm a 2007 grad and will hate SMUt until my last breath. My hatred stems from the 2007 game at Ford stadium when some collar-poppin', pink polo wearin', d-bags called my friends and my a slur used for homosexuals that starts with the letter F. I would have loved to give him a "five knuckle introduction" but figured his legal counsel was probably WAY better than mine so we just let it go.

The 2006 game was where my hatred originated from. My experience was with a SMU student (he looked young enough to be a student) who was "tailgating" with a bottle of booze in a brown paper bag out of the back of his Lexus SUV at the United Methodist Student center parking lot (btw Maple and Kerr - now known as the Denton Wesley Foundation). I was an active member there for years as a student and still had permission to park in their parking lot and would do so for football games and walk to Fouts. So, I parked a space or two away from him, ignored the fact he was drinking in a religious organization's parking lot, and made my way to the game without so much as making eye contact with him.

When I get back to my vehicle after the ass whooping we gave them, I was fortunate to notice something behind my back right tire. When I went to remove it...sure enough, it was a brown paper bag with an empty glass bottle shoved up against the back of my tire. That dill's vehicle was already gone which was a good thing. I'm not a violent person by any stretch of the imagination, but if I would have caught him in the act, the rage I felt at that moment would have ended in a bad situation for one or the both of us.

Since then, I do my best not to hold personal grudges against SMU students/grads and have a good relationship with an SMU coworker. But, that experience has always left a very bitter taste in my mouth for SMU that has not diminished and probably never will.

[BigPonyFan]

What exactly drives your being content with never playing us? I think if you could reveal it we might get to the bottom of some of our issues. Wouldn't both schools benefit from playing each other? Doesn't SMU and UNT need to do everything we can to drive interest in this pro sports town? Orsini seems to think so or he wouldn't have scheduled a 4 year series with us. I think ignoring us may come back to bite you. We're not going anywhere, we've made significant investment in our facilities - enrollment is strong...location is in a major growth area.. for the life of me, I can't understand why can't North Texas and SMU have a positive mutually beneficial relationship and co-exist?

I think we already hashed this out previously on a different thread. Orsini scheduled the UNT games well before the Big East developments to help drive attendance numbers. I honestly doubt he expected things to move so quickly, and he was hoping that UNT would help give the attendance numbers a bump (to build the schools case for BE inclusion). This was necessary since SMU has virtually no money for marketing. We're potentially in a completely different situation now.

With six homes games, Baylor, and TCU, SMU doesn't need yet another North Texas game. TCU has a regional strategy, SMU does not. I would much rather have SMU play a team like Washington State (for example).

My #1 point is that SMU needs to aggressively market and fill the stadium regardless of opponent. SMU needs to look to market the school outside of North Texas, which means not having another NT game.

[glick1980]

I think we already hashed this out previously on a different thread. Orsini scheduled the UNT games well before the Big East developments to help drive attendance numbers. I honestly doubt he expected things to move so quickly, and he was hoping that UNT would help give the attendance numbers a bump (to build the schools case for BE inclusion). This was necessary since SMU has virtually no money for marketing. We're potentially in a completely different situation now.

With six homes games, Baylor, and TCU, SMU doesn't need yet another North Texas game. TCU has a regional strategy, SMU does not. I would much rather have SMU play a team like Washington State (for example).

My #1 point is that SMU needs to aggressively market and fill the stadium regardless of opponent. SMU needs to look to market the school outside of North Texas, which means not having another NT game.

SMU will still have attendance problems. They need a more regional strategy because frankly nobody in the region cares for them, and that is proven at the gate. I doubt Rutgers will be bringing many fans or excitement to Ford. Then there is always the epic showdown between SMU and SDSU that will draw less than 10k. Oh and don't forget than you will be playing 3 teams that you have been in a conference with for years. I'm am sure attendance at those games is going to skyrocket because you are now in the new CUSA I mean Big East.

[rjmunthe]

SMUt will never fill the stands, especially in the new CUSA. Whatever, the only reason your football team is where you are at is because of your years of illicit operations. And at the end of the day, you may be ranked highly, but you are still a wannabe Ivy League school despised by the city you are located in because UNT grads outnumber you in epic fashion. Go pound sand, we'll send you back to the Big East when we do whoop your ass again.

[Harry]

My #1 point is that SMU needs to aggressively market and fill the stadium regardless of opponent. SMU needs to look to market the school outside of North Texas, which means not having another NT game.

Filling the stadium regardless of opponent is a noble goal that we all aspire to but in reality doesn't happen overnight. If you believe SMU needs to fill the stadium, I think North Texas helps you do that. To me, filling your stadium is much more important than marketing your program outside of the area at this point. Recruits and their families don't want to play in front of small crowds. You have money and influence but you don't have attendance or butts in seats...to me that's the missing ingredient for SMU right now and we could help in that regard.

[PlummMeanGreen]

This isn't an issue between a private vs. a public school. I could care less a school is one or the other. SMU didn't necessarily coat-tailed with anybody...they've had a decent past, history and they just so happen to be affiliated with the other big boys for most of history. Wherever they are is because they've earned it. If it hasn't been on the field then it's been via funding, commitment, money, past history etc. We don't exactly have this unbelievable tradition of winning and winning at the highest level. We are where we are because of NT's doing...don't go blaming SMU for our own EFF UPS.

And again as far as the trust funder, pink polo wearing people you're referring too...you obviously don't know very many students at SMU today...most are the polar opposite of that. Do they exist? Sure they do but I had plenty of classmates at UNT who were the same exact people you described.

When I said coat-tail I mean't those used to be inflated home attendance (but real) numbers back during their SWC days when 15,000 to 20,000 Longhorn, Aggies, Texas Tech (sometimes) Baylor fans would travel to the Cotton Bowl when SMU played home games there, then Texas Stadium, etc, etc, etc. Frank Broyles had the same concern on the SWC's privates "coat-tailing" off the Big Boys of the SWC and was a major reason he took his school out of the league which eventually caused its implosion.

One can only imagine if UNT had had as many traveling fans coming to an enlarged Fouts Field (now Apogee) with an honest program with more wins than losses could have gone. It still pains me to say that my era of when we were students was the last one to witness a UNT HFC who left Denton with more wins than losses. That's a long time, folks. Even why we allowed it to go that long bothers me even more and doesn't say much for our leadership as far as athletics was concerned.

We really flatter SMU a bit much with all this "why don't yall play us" more than we really should, too, but thru the decades many of us could plead "guilty" of doing that at least once or twice, too. I don't care about their money because I'm not even sure SMU could pay the middle class of Dallas to attend their games on a regular basis and its that class or demographic that will fill their stadium and create the kind of fans they really need.

GMG!

Edited February 9, 2012 by PlummMeanGreen

[BigPonyFan]

Filling the stadium regardless of opponent is a noble goal that we all aspire to but in reality doesn't happen overnight. If you believe SMU needs to fill the stadium, I think North Texas helps you do that. To me, filling your stadium is much more important than marketing your program outside of the area at this point. Recruits and their families don't want to play in front of small crowds. You have money and influence but you don't have attendance or butts in seats...to me that's the missing ingredient for SMU right now and we could help in that regard.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree Harry!

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

---Plum is so right.... He was alive and an adult then and remembers... Arkansas and some others got tired of filling the stadiums of the smaller colleges in the SWC.... plus most were not very good and it did little for their reputation to defeat them. That is the big reason they pulled out and also the cheating by SMU and a couple others though not quite as bad. Later when the Big-12 was created there were no very small colleges in it. UT, A&M and TTU had the same argument which was a factor as well in the death of the SWC. Nebraska, KU, OU, colorado, and OSU were opponents that meant something when you played them.. I complement TCU though because they have recovered nicely... but maybe by not playing those teams every year anymore.

---Personally at this point, I would rather we don't play SMU any more... they may need us to fill stadiums but we don't need them. They have no respect for us anyway. Just ignor them. If any other Texas college wants to schedule us.. fine.. do it.

Edited February 9, 2012 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[emmitt01]

SMU will still have attendance problems. They need a more regional strategy because frankly nobody in the region cares for them, and that is proven at the gate. I doubt Rutgers will be bringing many fans or excitement to Ford. Then there is always the epic showdown between SMU and SDSU that will draw less than 10k. Oh and don't forget than you will be playing 3 teams that you have been in a conference with for years. I'm am sure attendance at those games is going to skyrocket because you are now in the new CUSA I mean Big East.

This. Let me make this fundamentally clear for all of our SMU guests. Don't take this as a flame, just take it and let it marinate. NOBODY IN DALLAS, OUTSIDE OF THE HEADS OF SMU ALUMS, GIVES A RAT'S ASS ABOUT SMU. NO, NOT WHEN YOU BROUGHT HOUSTON, UTEP, TULSA, RICE, ETC TO YOUR STADIUM. NO, NOT NOW THAT YOU ARE IN A "BCS" LEAGUE. NOBODY. You could argue that you have had better attendance than NT recently...and whine about your small endowment (oops I mean enrollment, and I didn't mean endowment as in your school's money). The bottom line is this though:

1)North Texas has drawn pretty close numbers at the turnstiles WITHOUT bringing regional opponents as conference games.

2)You are IN Dallas. Not close to it, not a suburb of it, IN THE FREAKIN MIDDLE OF IT. And yet still people aint comin. Hmmmm

3)I've been to your games. Unless your press box holds 5,000 there's a "fudge margin" built into your attendance figures.

4)You have had a very nice stadium (Apogee is better...it just is) for going on a decade now...at least we could blame crappy facilities.

The funniest thing to me is that you SMU will continue with their "we don't need you" mentality while perpetually scratching their heads over why people just don't show up.

Edited February 9, 2012 by emmitt01

[Rudy]

NFM

Edited February 10, 2012 by Rudy

[TIgreen01]

Filling the stadium regardless of opponent is a noble goal that we all aspire to but in reality doesn't happen overnight. If you believe SMU needs to fill the stadium, I think North Texas helps you do that. To me, filling your stadium is much more important than marketing your program outside of the area at this point. Recruits and their families don't want to play in front of small crowds. You have money and influence but you don't have attendance or butts in seats...to me that's the missing ingredient for SMU right now and we could help in that regard.

Well then, that settles it for me. Take SMU back off the schedule. Anything that helps them out, I'm opposed to.

[MCMLXXX]

What does vitriolic mean?

Vitriolic was the basketball coach before JJ. His tenure was disastrous. Most of us would not wish him on our worst enemy. From this thread it appears many posters would like him to replace Doh at SMU.

[untjim1995]

I think we already hashed this out previously on a different thread. Orsini scheduled the UNT games well before the Big East developments to help drive attendance numbers. I honestly doubt he expected things to move so quickly, and he was hoping that UNT would help give the attendance numbers a bump (to build the schools case for BE inclusion). This was necessary since SMU has virtually no money for marketing. We're potentially in a completely different situation now.

With six homes games, Baylor, and TCU, SMU doesn't need yet another North Texas game. TCU has a regional strategy, SMU does not. I would much rather have SMU play a team like Washington State (for example).

My #1 point is that SMU needs to aggressively market and fill the stadium regardless of opponent. SMU needs to look to market the school outside of North Texas, which means not having another NT game.

To the OP, who later in this thread questioned why I would suggest that SMU might buy out of our series, read the above post, from one of your own. I truly believe that the strong majority of your fanbase--however many rich people that may entail--believe this whole-heartedly. Let's look at scheduling facts for a moment. SMU and North Texas played quite often during the 70s and early 80s. Then, SMU became "great" and we went down to i-aa. When have our schools played each other since 1981? Here are your answers, the first two years post-death penalty in 1989 and 1990, as well as 1992, or basically when you needed us. Each team won their home games, so you had wins in 89 and 92. The next time that we played? 2006-2007. In that span, North Texas moved up to 1-a in 1995 and SMU was literally terrible and couldn't draw flies to games at either the Cotton Bowl or Ford. But with Phil Bennett needing to somehow get a bowl game under his belt, he schedules North Texas in 2006 and 2007. Unfortunately for Bennett, the hornets nest he brought his SMU team up to in Denton in 2006 cost him the only chance he had at a bowl game (unforgiveable to old money SMU fans), and in his last year at SMU, his win over UNT was his only win of the season. But not once did we play during the previous 11 years of our regained 1-a status, including of course, the years where UNT was good, from 2001-2004. We wanted to play you guys--we bent over backwards to make sure we could play you in 2006 and 2007 just because you wanted to play us--but losing to little ol' North Texas would have been catastrophic to your fanbase, finally cementing to them that we really are far away from ever being considered a big-time football program again. Between 1995 and 2005, seasons when we were back up to 1-a level and didn't play SMU, we played the following: TCU, Texas Tech, Baylor, Houston, Texas, Texas A&M, and Arkansas. With the exception of Rice, you guys were the only SWC school we didn't play, even though we begged those schools for games ANYWHERE!! All we ever heard was how the Sun Belt Conference sucked, that beating us wouldn't do anything for SMU but would only help UNT, yada, yada, yada...In other words, in the last 30 years, SMU has played UNT when it has benefitted you, and we have been so desperate for a game with you that we would gullibly do whatever you wanted. In many ways, it speaks to just how much of a difference level both schools have competed on in their histories.

Again, I will be thrilled if we get 2 of those games played in the future, but I will not hold my breath. I sure as hell don't think it will turn into 8 games in a row...

[rjmunthe]

Exactly. SMU is substantially better than us at football, they are in a way better conference, get better recruits and supposedly are a "better" school that gets more exposure than us, but yet their attendance is pretty much the same as us. LOLWUT

[UNTflyer]

Why NOT hate SMU?

[BigPonyFan]

rjmunthe, you sound like you're firmly against playing SMU. Why don't you lead the charge (from the UNT side) to break off the series??

[rjmunthe]

I'd love to play SMU. Maybe then more than 15K would come to see your team play at Ford.

Edited February 9, 2012 by rjmunthe

[PlummMeanGreen]

This. Let me make this fundamentally clear for all of our SMU guests. Don't take this as a flame, just take it and let it marinate. NOBODY IN DALLAS, OUTSIDE OF THE HEADS OF SMU ALUMS, GIVES A RAT'S ASS ABOUT SMU. NO, NOT WHEN YOU BROUGHT HOUSTON, UTEP, TULSA, RICE, ETC TO YOUR STADIUM. NO, NOT NOW THAT YOU ARE IN A "BCS" LEAGUE. NOBODY. You could argue that you have had better attendance than NT recently...and whine about your small endowment (oops I mean enrollment, and I didn't mean endowment as in your school's money). The bottom line is this though:

1)North Texas has drawn pretty close numbers at the turnstiles WITHOUT bringing regional opponents as conference games.

2)You are IN Dallas. Not close to it, not a suburb of it, IN THE FREAKIN MIDDLE OF IT. And yet still people aint comin. Hmmmm

3)I've been to your games. Unless your press box holds 5,000 there's a "fudge margin" built into your attendance figures.

4)You have had a very nice stadium (Apogee is better...it just is) for going on a decade now...at least we could blame crappy facilities.

The funniest thing to me is that you SMU will continue with their "we don't need you" mentality while perpetually scratching their heads over why people just don't show up.

This!

And I love the big letters, Emmitt. It reminds me of my younger days as a poster but (of course) I would have made those big letters have every shade of green with a generous mix of fonts, too.

[Rudy]

rjmunthe, you sound like you're firmly against playing SMU. Why don't you lead the charge (from the UNT side) to break off the series??

Because noone would listen to him. You don't want him heckling your team. TRUST ME!

[UNTexas]

When I was in school, we drank with TCU people and threw some parties together. I had good times and its pretty simple as to why, at least I, like TCU more. SMU always appeared boring to me. Sorry, SMU didn't exactly peg the fun meter. Pretty campus or not. (The original post seemed preoccupied as to why SMU lost the popularity contest. I hope this helps.)

As far as football, I say screw it. We play whoever and start winning again. As far as SMU goes, they are on the schedule. Beat them on the field and leave it at that.

One final note, UNT has better looking girls than either of the aforementioned institutions. Yes, I am biased. Proceed...