The SBC will kill our program...

[yyz28]

So...did you not get into Houston? Did they not like your ***'n essay?

What happened, big guy?

By FAR the best post in this thread. +1 for the big Q.

[Green Mean]

I thoroughly love how only the stupid trolls are the ones who disagree. What does it matter if I didn't know what conference we were in? It is FCS. It doesn't matter. I was living in Houston wanting to be a Cougar when we were FCS. I didn't know we existed because we played irrelevant teams. Anyway, I have stats proving our attendance is much better versus regional teams. I'm shocked at how out of touch a lot of you are. People in Florida know UNT. Yet, the people in Florida who know UNT are not going to drive eight hours to watch FAU get massacred here. People in San Marcos would come to Denton to watch Texas State though because they are within a day's distance. Furthermore, people here recognize Texas State so would want to see them play. Why do you think our attendanattendance sucked with Dickey? NO ONE WANTS TO WATCH MTSU. Fact. We don't draw fans just because we're UNT like A&M or UT. Good lord.

Like, seriously, the stupidity here makes me wonder why I came to UNT at all. Denial levels are shocking.

Vomit

[Eagle1855]

The choice of words and the method of conveying his position left much to be desired, but regardless of what everyone on here thinks, Sun Belt fans and otherwise, we're always going to have a tough time going where we want to go just beating up on Sun Belt teams. It did very little for us during our bowl runs. We won 26 straight conference games and no one even flinched. It didn't improve our recruits. It didn't improve national perception. We plateaued. Then we hired Todd Dodge.

With respect to attendance, it DOES matter what teams we play. Some of you are missing the point. It isn't about other teams bringing their fans, it's about our fans showing up to see our team take on a team that MATTERS in the landscape of college football.

It costs me $150 in gas round trip to go to Denton from Houston. That doesn't include a hotel at $100, tickets to the game at $40 or so for a pair, any concessions, dinner, etc... You're looking at a $400 trip. At present time, I don't have $400 to spend on a 4-6 team playing a terrible team from Kentucky that just got housed by LSU the weekend before. I have virtually no incentive to spending that kind of coin on that game. Now you tell me college gameday is in town, that UNT is undefeated, and we're taking on an in-state rival, I'll find the money. If that makes me a bad fan, a bad fan I am. But there are thousands of other bad fans out there that think just like me.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Eagle1855

[MeanGreenHoops]

The choice of words and the method of conveying his position left much to be desired, but regardless of what everyone on here thinks, Sun Belt fans and otherwise, we're always going to have a tough time going where we want to go just beating up on Sun Belt teams. It did very little for us during our bowl runs. We won 26 straight conference games and no one even flinched. It didn't improve our recruits. It didn't improve national perception. We plateaued. Then we hired Todd Dodge.

With respect to attendance, it DOES matter what teams we play. Some of you are missing the point. It isn't about other teams bringing their fans, it's about our fans showing up to see our team take on a team that MATTERS in the landscape of college football.

It costs me $150 in gas round trip to go to Denton from Houston. That doesn't include a hotel at $100, tickets to the game at $40 or so for a pair, any concessions, dinner, etc... You're looking at a $400 trip. At present time, I don't have $400 to spend on a 4-6 team playing a terrible team from Kentucky that just got housed by LSU the weekend before. I have virtually no incentive to spending that kind of coin on that game. Now you tell me college gameday is in town, that UNT is undefeated, and we're taking on an in-state rival, I'll find the money. If that makes me a bad fan, a bad fan I am. But there are thousands of other bad fans out there that think just like me.

You're not a bad fan. But it's not as much about the teams as you think it is. Let's say we were 10-0 going into the game last week with wins with this schedule.

FIU

Vanderbilt

James Madison

Toledo

Bryant

FAU

ULL

ULM

Ark. St

Troy

What I just did there was use our Sun belt schedule and then replaced the 4 OCC games with the team ranked one place higher in Sagarin's rankings than the same team Houston has played on their schedule.

Vanderbilt 51 (for UCLA)

James Madison 128 (for Us)

Toledo 53 (for La. Tech)

and Bryant 205 (for Georgia St.)

We probably would have had a nearly packed or packed house. The problem is mostly wins not who we play.

What we have to stop doing is scheduling 4 games that we will mostly likely lose OCC. The extra 10K fans that bandwagon come to those games, see us get smacked and say to themselves, oh well we still aren't good, maybe next year. And then they don't pay attention no matter what happens. If and only if we were ablt to run the table in conference like we did with Dickey, people start to pay attention again by the last game or maybe two.

EDIT: Sorry I edited because I had typed Georgia Tech rather than Georgia St.

Edited November 21, 2011 by MeanGreenHoops

[FirefightnRick]

You're not a bad fan. But it's not as much about the teams as you think it is. Let's say we were 10-0 going into the game last week with wins with this schedule.

FIU

Vanderbilt

James Madison

Toledo

Bryant

FAU

ULL

ULM

Ark. St

Troy

What I just did there was use our Sun belt schedule and then replaced the 4 OCC games with the team ranked one place higher in Sagarin's rankings than the same team Houston has played on their schedule.

Vanderbilt 51 (for UCLA)

James Madison 128 (for Us)

Toledo 53 (for La. Tech)

and Bryant 205 (for Georgia Tech)

We probably would have had a nearly packed or packed house. The problem is mostly wins not who we play.

What we have to stop doing is scheduling 4 games that we will mostly likely lose OCC. The extra 10K fans that bandwagon come to those games, see us get smacked and say to themselves, oh well we still aren't good, maybe next year. And then they don't pay attention no matter what happens. If and only if we were ablt to run the table in conference like we did with Dickey, people start to pay attention again by the last game or maybe two.

Good post

Rick

[rcade]

People in Florida know UNT. Yet, the people in Florida who know UNT are not going to drive eight hours to watch FAU get massacred here.

I live in Florida. Eight hours to drive from Florida Atlantic to Denton? More like 21.

[Rudy]

What does it matter if I didn't know what conference we were in? It is FCS.

The Big West wasn't FCS

I was living in Houston wanting to be a Cougar when we were FCS.

Only women can be cougars

Yet, the people in Florida who know UNT are not going to drive eight hours to watch FAU get massacred here.

Might want to check your whole understanding of time there.

Why do you think our attendanattendance sucked with Dickey?

For many reasons.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Rudy

[TIgreen01]

You're not a bad fan. But it's not as much about the teams as you think it is. Let's say we were 10-0 going into the game last week with wins with this schedule.

FIU

Vanderbilt

James Madison

Toledo

Bryant

FAU

ULL

ULM

Ark. St

Troy

What I just did there was use our Sun belt schedule and then replaced the 4 OCC games with the team ranked one place higher in Sagarin's rankings than the same team Houston has played on their schedule.

Vanderbilt 51 (for UCLA)

James Madison 128 (for Us)

Toledo 53 (for La. Tech)

and Bryant 205 (for Georgia Tech)

We probably would have had a nearly packed or packed house. The problem is mostly wins not who we play.

What we have to stop doing is scheduling 4 games that we will mostly likely lose OCC. The extra 10K fans that bandwagon come to those games, see us get smacked and say to themselves, oh well we still aren't good, maybe next year. And then they don't pay attention no matter what happens. If and only if we were ablt to run the table in conference like we did with Dickey, people start to pay attention again by the last game or maybe two.

+1000.

[foutsrouts]

Like, seriously, the stupidity here makes me wonder why I came to UNT at all. Denial levels are shocking.

The stupidity here is that this thread has lasted so long. You really need to take your complaints and frustrations to RV. I'm sure that with your ingenuity added to the mix, the two of you could sit down and fix this situation in a heartbeat. Where have you been hiding all these years?

[rcade]

Now you tell me college gameday is in town, that UNT is undefeated, and we're taking on an in-state rival, I'll find the money. If that makes me a bad fan, a bad fan I am.

I don't know if it makes you a bad fan, but you're waiting for a scenario that's a one-in-a-thousand shot to ever happen. UNT is in the Sun Belt. No better offers have been extended to us. The WAC is at best a lateral move with some serious negatives. So if you can't get excited by the prospect of UNT playing for a Sun Belt title at Apogee, the program's unlikely to motivate you as a fan.

[Eagle1855]

I don't know if it makes you a bad fan, but you're waiting for a scenario that's a one-in-a-thousand shot to ever happen. UNT is in the Sun Belt. No better offers have been extended to us. The WAC is at best a lateral move with some serious negatives. So if you can't get excited by the prospect of UNT playing for a Sun Belt title at Apogee, the program's unlikely to motivate you as a fan.

Just a dramatic comparison to what I would deem a peer University that had that very thing happening at the same time as our game.

I've traveled all over this country to see UNT play. So no, I'm not a bad fan; I'm an awesome fan who currently hasn't the money to spend on a bad team in a worse conference. And I've already traveled to Denton twice this year. But if I lived in DFW, I'd have been there.

Point is, attendance is related to the teams we play but it's even more strongly-related to winning games. Beating teams that matter is a recipe for sell-outs.

I don't think the SunBelt will kill our program. I also don't think it does much to help it, either. Especially when we don't win the games against the teams in this conference.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Eagle1855

[mgfan]

NOT WINNING is killing our program. Scheduling LSU and Kansas St next year isn't exactly helping either. We need games were we have a chance to win. (I know we almost beat K ST last

year)How about we schedule SFA or Sam Houston. Take a note from Boise State early years, schedule easier teams and start winning.

[shaft]

I'm glad the blame the Belt thread has devolved into the need to join some new super regional conference and blaming body bag games. None of that is real. The reality, is the Belt has been good for us. Its given us a D1 home, and place to grow our entire athletic program. Hopefully we can out grow the Belt, but the truth is were not there yet.

[Aquila_Viridis]

If you want regional rivalries, we could just start playing on Friday nights. Now to your point, the attendance might be about the same as the other night. :-)

[Eagle1855]

I'm glad the blame the Belt thread has devolved into the need to join some new super regional conference and blaming body bag games. None of that is real. The reality, is the Belt has been good for us. Its given us a D1 home, and place to grow our entire athletic program. Hopefully we can out grow the Belt, but the truth is were not there yet.

The more I thought about this conversation, the more inclined to agree with you I am.

I think it did provide us the foothold back into the relevant college football world. And I think we lost that momentum with a few disappointing hires. Ultimately, I think the upside to the Sun Belt is much smaller than any other conference, but I do agree that we need to get back to winning it... and we're definitely not there yet.

Good thoughts.

[MeanGreenWithEnvy]

But I do know this. It all starts with changing the culture of UNT. We have to reconnect with those alumni that haven't thought twice about UNT since graduating. Send them all a free ticket or a 2 for 1 coupon for football and/or basketball. We are making the right steps with our new students, but frankly I don't know that we have the time to wait for them to graduate and start earning. We need some immediate alumni support from those that have forgotten about UNT. Things are headed in the right direction. But I just hope that 30 years of neglect and apathy towards athletics has not left us with too large of a hole to dig ourselves out of. The Dr. Hurleys of the world have put us in a dark place.

This is the hardest part of the equation to solve. It's the hardest part to solve because, in my opinion, your time in college as a student is where you cement your allegiance to your alma mater's football team and other athletic teams. Once you graduate, your evolution as a football fan is pretty much complete. From there on out, it's about your college football team and your local (or acquired) pro team. It's going to be an uphill battle to fire up alums who never grew that attachment to the Mean Green while they were in college. I'm not saying it can't be done, simply that it's going to be tough.

I think it starts with winning. One thing I've come around to thinking about the UNT fan base this season is that no one outside us hard core folks are going to show up for anything less than a winning team. Merely being competitive isn't going to cut it. We need to establish a winning tradition here and I think Coach Mac and his folks are doing that. Yeah, there will be folks who will say "but we won under Dickey and people still didn't come." I think it will be different now because of the Apogee Advantage. We won under Dickey and people didn't flock to Fouts regularly because Fouts was a dump. It was like going to a college football game in a 3A stadium in West Texas. No casual fan is going to go for that and, like it or not, that is what who we're trying to woo here: casual fans that we wish were hard core fans.

I like your idea of reaching out to alumni with free tickets or 2-for-1 tickets. Don't just send them information on how to buy tickets; put the tickets in their hands. I'd strongly suggest the AD do some serious direct marketing to UNT alums living in the Metroplex and Texoma regions. I know alums in both regions who would come to a game if given tickets or a 2-for-1 deal, and these are folks who, for the most part, don't donate to the university and have little to no connection to the wider UNT community since they graduated. This could be a great way to get them back here, get them into Apogee, and get them at a game experience. I've been very impressed with Apogee and the game experience and I think it sells itself better than any of us can sell it.

UNT, whether it's the university or a college or a department, is always asking for money from alums. Why not pleasantly surprise alums and give those disconnected a reason to come back?

[MeanGreenWithEnvy]

Scheduling LSU and Kansas St next year isn't exactly helping either. We need games were we have a chance to win. (I know we almost beat K ST last

year)How about we schedule SFA or Sam Houston. Take a note from Boise State early years, schedule easier teams and start winning.

I think if we could make the same gate money off SFA and Sam Houston that we make off the Alabamas, LSUs, and Kansas States of the world, we would gladly do so.

That ain't happening, though. As much as it sucks, we need the money from those body bag games.

[mgfan]

I think if we could make the same gate money off SFA and Sam Houston that we make off the Alabamas, LSUs, and Kansas States of the world, we would gladly do so.

That ain't happening, though. As much as it sucks, we need the money from those body bag games.

that just isn't looking at the big picture. If we keep letting ourselves get crushed by the Alabama's of the world at the start of ever season then we will continue to average 17k people at each game. we could be sitting with a winning or .500 record right now if we didn't play those types of teams year in and year out. And if we start winning will get more butts in the seats which in turn means more money in UNT's pockets. Playing teams like Alabama isn't going to help us in the long run.

[shaft]

There is some bad assumptions going on about the payday/bodybag games.

1. It assumes the big loss is what keeps fans away.

2. It assumes home attendance revenue can off set those games.

We get payouts in the $700,000 range for games with Bama and LSU.

Adding 7,000 fans to at $10 revenue per fan is only $70k x 5 home games, you only get halfway there.

The truth is football has to pay its own bills and then some for the rest of the athletic program.

People don't stay home because we lost to a ranked team at their house.

Let's also stop pretending there is this vast supply of regional rivals looking to sign home-at-home games.

[rcade]

People don't stay home because we lost to a ranked team at their house.

I think it was demoralizing to start every season with two body bag games in which the Mean Green were humiliated by halftime. I can accept one body bag game, but the rest of our OOC schedule needs to be teams we have a realistic chance of beating.

[GreenPepper]

This is the hardest part of the equation to solve. It's the hardest part to solve because, in my opinion, your time in college as a student is where you cement your allegiance to your alma mater's football team and other athletic teams. Once you graduate, your evolution as a football fan is pretty much complete. From there on out, it's about your college football team and your local (or acquired) pro team. It's going to be an uphill battle to fire up alums who never grew that attachment to the Mean Green while they were in college. I'm not saying it can't be done, simply that it's going to be tough.

I think it starts with winning. One thing I've come around to thinking about the UNT fan base this season is that no one outside us hard core folks are going to show up for anything less than a winning team. Merely being competitive isn't going to cut it. We need to establish a winning tradition here and I think Coach Mac and his folks are doing that. Yeah, there will be folks who will say "but we won under Dickey and people still didn't come." I think it will be different now because of the Apogee Advantage. We won under Dickey and people didn't flock to Fouts regularly because Fouts was a dump. It was like going to a college football game in a 3A stadium in West Texas. No casual fan is going to go for that and, like it or not, that is what who we're trying to woo here: casual fans that we wish were hard core fans.

I like your idea of reaching out to alumni with free tickets or 2-for-1 tickets. Don't just send them information on how to buy tickets; put the tickets in their hands. I'd strongly suggest the AD do some serious direct marketing to UNT alums living in the Metroplex and Texoma regions. I know alums in both regions who would come to a game if given tickets or a 2-for-1 deal, and these are folks who, for the most part, don't donate to the university and have little to no connection to the wider UNT community since they graduated. This could be a great way to get them back here, get them into Apogee, and get them at a game experience. I've been very impressed with Apogee and the game experience and I think it sells itself better than any of us can sell it.

UNT, whether it's the university or a college or a department, is always asking for money from alums. Why not pleasantly surprise alums and give those disconnected a reason to come back?

I like the Alumi ticket proposal, this would be great for 2012 Homecoming (set an attendance record).

We should also consider targeting local residence with Gameday offers like "Fill the Wing Zone" $1 night for Denton County Youths 18 and under, $5 for parents.

[Harry]

I'm glad the blame the Belt thread has devolved into the need to join some new super regional conference and blaming body bag games. None of that is real. The reality, is the Belt has been good for us. Its given us a D1 home, and place to grow our entire athletic program. Hopefully we can out grow the Belt, but the truth is were not there yet.

I think you can make an argument that the Sun Belt has been the best conference ever for UNT in terms of facilities and bowl games/NCAA tourneys etc...

[SilverEagle]

I think you can make an argument that the Sun Belt has been the best conference ever for UNT in terms of facilities and bowl games/NCAA tourneys etc...

Well, I mostly agree with you on this.....especially about the NCAA tourney. The Sun Belt helped us get into a bowl, but the first one was pretty much an embarrassment because we had to get special dispensation to get in. I haven't read anything confirming it, but I'm sure our participation in a bowl, with a losing record (2001) is what brought about the 6-game-bowl-eligible rule.

[untjim1995]

I think it starts with winning. One thing I've come around to thinking about the UNT fan base this season is that no one outside us hard core folks are going to show up for anything less than a winning team. Merely being competitive isn't going to cut it. We need to establish a winning tradition here and I think Coach Mac and his folks are doing that. Yeah, there will be folks who will say "but we won under Dickey and people still didn't come." I think it will be different now because of the Apogee Advantage. We won under Dickey and people didn't flock to Fouts regularly because Fouts was a dump. It was like going to a college football game in a 3A stadium in West Texas. No casual fan is going to go for that and, like it or not, that is what who we're trying to woo here: casual fans that we wish were hard core fans.

I used to think Fouts was the big reason people wouldn't come to a game, but I have now realized that this isn't true. When we played Army, Navy, SMU, TCU, Baylor, Tulsa, or Rice at home, Fouts had some really nice crowds. And we were usually just terrible--exception being Baylor in 2003. The reality is that Fouts couldn't attract too many decent opponents as Apogee could, but the reason people still wouldn't come to watch us in bigger numbers when we won is because of the teams that were coming here. The only time a game with an SBC opponent drew a decent crowd was when we played NMSU at Fouts for the conference title. I doubt very seriously that games at Apogee next year will really be much different from Saturday night's game against WKU. We will get an announced crowd of somewhere around 15k to 18k for the SBC games and our home game against Texas Southern. The athletic department really needs to try and get OOC home opponents like they did this season--and frankly, there is absolutely no reason to expect anything less. UH and IU are the types of opponents that should be here every year. Next year's schedule and most of the future OOC schedules at home are way below par to me. As a matter of fact, I will bet that season tickets will drop down some after this becasue the newness of Apogee will have worn off and the upcoming season has 5 home games with the marquee game being Arkansas State. That should tell you all you need to know about the expectation for 2012 attendance.

[rcade]

As a matter of fact, I will bet that season tickets will drop down some after this becasue the newness of Apogee will have worn off and the upcoming season has 5 home games with the marquee game being Arkansas State.

I think ticket sales will improve because of how the team has played this season. We're not at rock bottom any more. We have a realistic shot next year at taking the Belt.