2000 $ more

outoftown · October 28, 2011

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/7156548/ncaa-panel-approves-major-scholarship-rules-changes

Wondering how this will affect College football and UNT.

UNT already does not max out I hear, but maybe with the new students sports fee they could go up... I doubt though that the sunbelt will max out.

I think this might reverse the trend of more and more schools coming to FBS from FCS and actively makes live harder for some schools to survive (I think ULM from the top of my head, but other examples in nonBCS conferences sure exist)

What do you guys think?

Edited October 28, 2011 by outoftown

buff64 · October 28, 2011

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/7156548/ncaa-panel-approves-major-scholarship-rules-changes

Wondering how this will affect College football and UNT.

UNT already does not max out I hear, but maybe with the new students sports fee they could go up... I doubt though the sunbelt will max out.

I think this might might reverse the trend of more and more schools coming to FBS from FCS and actively makes live harder for some schools to survive (I think ULM from the top of my head, but other examples in nonBCS conferences sure exist)

What do you guys think?

Another thing to remember is that for every $ given to a male on scholarship a $ must be given to a female on scholarship. This change will give the elitest programs even more of an advantage.Since it is up to the individual schools to set up their own program, the $2000 is not mandatory.

NorthTexan95 · October 28, 2011

My fear is that the Sun Belt will vote not to do this and that will give us a recruiting disadvantage against conferences that do. Hopefully the Sun Belt will allow it but each school will decide how much to do. Then it could be a recruiting benefit for us against other Sun Belt teams that don't pay it.

outoftown · October 28, 2011

My fear is that the Sun Belt will vote not to do this and that will give us a recruiting disadvantage against conferences that do. Hopefully the Sun Belt will allow it but each school will decide how much to do. Then it could be a recruiting benefit for us against other Sun Belt teams that don't pay it.

I doubt the sunbelt will allow for the Full max. but maybe part of the increase? Buff is right, it is expensive as with womens sports and all of that, it can easily be 400'000 a year for a University. And that is if you don't have to give the same deal to track and other male nonrevenue sports.

And what are the rules on the sunbelt in this: does the simple majority decide (I can see getting a majority of teams to say yes) or do you need an almost unanimous yes (that seems pretty hard, like I said I cant see ULM being thrilled at the notion)

I wonder about some things though... would it be possible to do it only for a part of the Football team (so you can promise a 3 star somethin on top) and not for others? Or do all student athletes have to have the same deal?

KRAM1 · October 28, 2011

But...but...but...remember UNT scholarship football players are undernourished and starving at the end of each month as we were told in a previous thread because their stipends are too low! How dare the Sunbelt even consider not going to the full allotment!

OK...seriously, I hope the conference allows it's schools to go to the full $2000 increase if it is within their budgets to do so. But, I would hate to see a recruiting disadvantage occur to those schools who cannot go to the full amount. I am sure it happens already, but don't want it to get "worse" from a recruiting standpoint. These kids earn every dime they get in tuition and hosing/food/books assistance...every darn dime. But, they still have a pretty good deal...which they have earned...compared to other walk-on athletes who work just as hard and get ZERO, partial scholarship athletes (some getting only book money or some percentage of tuition) and the "regular" college student who pays a good portion of their own expenses or gets saddled with several thousand dollars in student loans upon graduation.

BUT, who really believes that a "full scholarship" really means to cover ALL the costs of a college education? Come on folks. We see all the coaches and parents and players beaming at the press conferences on national signing day. Every one of them are really happy and seeing sugar plums dancing in their heads over all the cash they will save on "Johnny's" college education. I doubt many truly believe that they will not have to chip in a bit to cover extras and perhaps even some food and lodging assistance...gasp...how can that be...it was a "free ride"!!!! Really, really?

So, should UNT go to the full $2000 additional, where will the extra funds come from? I doubt that the Athletic Dept. budget will be increased to cover this additional...remember, it is for all scholarship athletes not just football and basketball players, and the donor base is just now beginning to grow to any substantial level at all. Coaching salaries are way up, the department has several more development folks chasing those donor dollars, travel costs are up across the board, scholarship costs are up as tuition has risen in the last few years and will continue to do so and there are new athletic facilities to run and pay for on an on-going basis. I think someone mentioned that would be a $400,000 annual increase...not so fast there...that $400,000 only accounts for 200 scholarship athletes at $2,000 each per year...UNT carries more than 200 scholarship athletes as do most/all schools. While the $2000/yr. doesn't seem like much per person...it is a very large sum indeed when all eligible athletes are considered.

So, where does it come from? I fully believe athletes earn every benefit they get, and am 100% in favor of an increased stipend, but just want to take all the "emotion" out of the discussion and see if there is some reality to the discussion and the situation. How does UNT "get there" for its well deserving athletes? Do we go back to "high school" level assistant coaches...or head coaches? Do we eliminate sports? Do we increase ticket prices? Do we charge students for game day tickets over the fees they already pay? Do we fire staffers? Increase parking and concession fees? Increase Mean Green Club level costs to the donors who are stepping up? Play more OCC "money games" against the likes of Alabama? Where do the funds come from?

Sometimes ideas that are great on paper and beneficial, create some real challenges when folks try to put them into action. Suggestions and ideas welcome. Let's find a way to help these deserving athletes. Can we? Will we?

Seriously ....really?

Edit: I love this board...Really? Seriously? Let's have some discussion if you think what I have posted is so far off base as to warrant negative points...seriously?

Edited October 28, 2011 by KRAM1

playoffpush · October 28, 2011

This $2,000 stipend will be the death of a few non-revenue programs if their schools are above the NCAA minimum for D1 programs.

oldguystudent · October 28, 2011

Another thing to remember is that for every $ given to a male on scholarship a $ must be given to a female on scholarship.

I'm not sure that's completely accurate. Flyer seems to be the resident expert on this one. Title IX isn't a dollar for dollar match men's to women's scholarships.

KRAM1 · October 28, 2011

I'm not sure that's completely accurate. Flyer seems to be the resident expert on this one. Title IX isn't a dollar for dollar match men's to women's scholarships.

Are you saying that only football and basketball scholarship athletes get stipends????? Really? If so, seems to be a tad bit of discrimination going on. If I am a soccer, tennis, golf, softball, swimming/diving, track, etc. athlete, I would feel a bit discriminated against, wouldn't you?

You mean there are 1% athletes and the rest fall in the 99%???? I see an Occupy Victory Hall movement developing. HeHe.

outoftown · October 28, 2011

BUT, who really believes that a "full scholarship" really means to cover ALL the costs of a college education? Come on folks. We see all the coaches and parents and players beaming at the press conferences on national signing day. Every one of them are really happy and seeing sugar plums dancing in their heads over all the cash they will save on "Johnny's" college education. I doubt many truly believe that they will not have to chip in a bit to cover extras and perhaps even some food and lodging assistance...gasp...how can that be...it was a "free ride"!!!! Really, really?

I have to say, that I do think a full scholarship should cover all the cost of a college education. A Kid coming from a really poor background should be able to feel that he made it and paid with his effort for college by himself, and not have to ask for additional assistance

KRAM1 · October 28, 2011

I have to say, that I do think a full scholarship should cover all the cost of a college education. A Kid coming from a really poor background should be able to feel that he made it and paid with his effort for college by himself, and not have to ask for additional assistance

Does that include travel costs to and from his home for visits and holidays? Additional spending money for clothes/shoes? All the food the kid wants to eat? Whatever cost to an apt. or rental home they choose to select? Entertainment? All of this comes into play in covering the costs of a college education. I'm not kidding or trying to be funny or smart here...I am just trying to have a solid conversation regarding what people think should be covered by an athlete's scholarship funding. As you can see, it could get out of hand. How about the food costs for the football players as opposed to the soccer players? Do they get the same? What if a kid wants to live alone off campus vs having one or two roommates or selects to stay on campus? What about a kid who lives in Florida vs one who lives in Denton regarding travel home costs?

How do you even all these things out? Seems to me the fair way is to set a stipend and let the players make their own choices. Some will make better choices than others, of course, but that's all part of the learning experience. Poor or not, the decisions seem to be similar and the costs to the school are certainly similar.

So, the athlete can feel he "made it through his efforts" and have it ALL paid while the poor kid who "made it with his intellect" has to fend for himself or herself to cover all the extra costs of a college education?

I know I am playing the devil's advocate here a bit, but thought I'd see if I couldn't get some real discussion and thinking going on this topic. It does fascinate me how the thought process goes for athletes and what they fell they have "earned" and what they feel they are 'entitled to" regarding their education. It seems their parents may have some of the same thought processes. I can tell you that we were under no illusions that the "free ride" our son was getting was truly 100% "free" even though in his case he earned it both with his efforts and his intellect...played soccer at the U.S. Merchant Marine Academy. So, I do have atad bit of experience here..not nearly as much as D-1 football and basketball players and parents have...admittedly, but at least some. We definitely "enjoyed" the breaks we got with tuition/books/fees/housing/food, etc., but my goodness there were many many other expenses to cover. And, by the way...there were many "poor" kids at the Academy as well who had to come up with the extra bucks to make it work.

If you know me, you know I very much support those who work hard and are able to play college ball...whether scholarship or walk-on, so don't give me the crap that you think I am anti-athlete somehow just because I am asking for some thoughtful discussion in this thread. It does fascinate me..this "attitude" that seems to prevail with some college athletes and their families regarding what they believe they are entitled to with a scholarship.

Are the benefits not laid out during the recruiting process at UNT/ We were certainly told and if we needed to ask additional questions...we did. Went into it with our eyes wide open....at least I thought we did...always a few surprises for all college students and their parents, right?

OK, here's what I believe a full ride scholarship should cover:

Tuition

Books

Fees

On-Campus Housing

On-campus Meal Card

Realistic monthly stipend...more if you choose to live off campus, less if the athlete lives on campus.

That's pretty much a free ride to an education. The idea that "all" expenses could be covered is not realistic in my opinion as everyone is different and has different needs and wants. It's the choices and the wants that usually seem to make the difference in one's college lifestyle and costs.

OK...discuss.

outoftown · October 28, 2011

Does that include travel costs to and from his home for visits and holidays? Additional spending money for clothes/shoes? All the food the kid wants to eat? Whatever cost to an apt. or rental home they choose to select? Entertainment? All of this comes into play in covering the costs of a college education. I'm not kidding or trying to be funny or smart here...I am just trying to have a solid conversation regarding what people think should be covered by an athlete's scholarship funding. As you can see, it could get out of hand. How about the food costs for the football players as opposed to the soccer players? Do they get the same? What if a kid wants to live alone off campus vs having one or two roommates or selects to stay on campus? What about a kid who lives in Florida vs one who lives in Denton regarding travel home costs?

How do you even all these things out? Seems to me the fair way is to set a stipend and let the players make their own choices. Some will make better choices than others, of course, but that's all part of the learning experience. Poor or not, the decisions seem to be similar and the costs to the school are certainly similar.

So, the athlete can feel he "made it through his efforts" and have it ALL paid while the poor kid who "made it with his intellect" has to fend for himself or herself to cover all the extra costs of a college education?

I know I am playing the devil's advocate here a bit, but thought I'd see if I couldn't get some real discussion and thinking going on this topic. It does fascinate me how the thought process goes for athletes and what they fell they have "earned" and what they feel they are 'entitled to" regarding their education. It seems their parents may have some of the same thought processes. I can tell you that we were under no illusions that the "free ride" our son was getting was truly 100% "free" even though in his case he earned it both with his efforts and his intellect...played soccer at the U.S. Merchant Marine Academy. So, I do have atad bit of experience here..not nearly as much as D-1 football and basketball players and parents have...admittedly, but at least some. We definitely "enjoyed" the breaks we got with tuition/books/fees/housing/food, etc., but my goodness there were many many other expenses to cover. And, by the way...there were many "poor" kids at the Academy as well who had to come up with the extra bucks to make it work.

If you know me, you know I very much support those who work hard and are able to play college ball...whether scholarship or walk-on, so don't give me the crap that you think I am anti-athlete somehow just because I am asking for some thoughtful discussion in this thread. It does fascinate me..this "attitude" that seems to prevail with some college athletes and their families regarding what they believe they are entitled to with a scholarship.

Are the benefits not laid out during the recruiting process at UNT/ We were certainly told and if we needed to ask additional questions...we did. Went into it with our eyes wide open....at least I thought we did...always a few surprises for all college students and their parents, right?

OK, here's what I believe a full ride scholarship should cover:

Tuition
Books
Fees
On-Campus Housing
On-campus Meal Card
Realistic monthly stipend...more if you choose to live off campus, less if the athlete lives on campus.

That's pretty much a free ride to an education. The idea that "all" expenses could be covered is not realistic in my opinion as everyone is different and has different needs and wants. It's the choices and the wants that usually seem to make the difference in one's college lifestyle and costs.

OK...discuss.

Ok a bit many points to adress them all, so I will take my pick.

One part of my problem is that Football has no minor league system whatsoever, so for the kid who dreams of becoming a pro university is a must, even if he is not bookish and not looking out for an education and you and I know that the probability of him using his education later on to make a living is bigger than the probability of going to the NFL. But not many driven 19year olds understand that. So it WILL feel to them as if they are in a situation where they pay money to play football.

I can totally see that it is somewhat unfair (and from a society investment point not a good idea) that the inellectual kid all to often does not get the same kind of advantages. It is just harder get the same kind of 'togetherness' moment you get in big football victory, when someone puts the final point on a great scientific publication. Which is sad.

I guess that Football is supposed to bring in more than it costs, so I feel people who are expected to and then do spend an incredibly big amount of their time for it and put their body on the line - should not have to pay for that experience on top of it.

But I admit that not gettomg a fair cut could be said about a lot of other people at almost any university also. It would for example lead into the discussion on how TAs, graduate students etc are paid.

Now to what a scholarship should cover. you and I are not actually that far from each other there (and I am not even sure that I'd give the option to live off campus). But remember: we are talking just north of 5$ a day, and not striking it rich.

the only thing in your list that makes me unhappy is the meal-plan. Now I don't know how good it is these days, but i have a hard time imagining it gives someone looking for the right and healthy nurishment that ought to bee expected from a semiprofessional athlete. That kind of thing does cost money, makes a decent difference on performance and should be covered for all full scholarship athletes in my mind.

oldguystudent · October 28, 2011

Are you saying that only football and basketball scholarship athletes get stipends????? Really? If so, seems to be a tad bit of discrimination going on. If I am a soccer, tennis, golf, softball, swimming/diving, track, etc. athlete, I would feel a bit discriminated against, wouldn't you?

You mean there are 1% athletes and the rest fall in the 99%???? I see an Occupy Victory Hall movement developing. HeHe.

I'm pretty confused by this. I was commenting on two things.

1) One full ride scholarship granted to a male athlete does not necessarily equal one full ride scholarship granted to a female athlete.

2) Full ride and partial scholarships exist. So if a football player has a full ride, and two female athletes are sharing a single scholarship, then the football player would get the $2,000 and each female athlete would get $1,000.

I could be very, very wrong though. I don't understand the complexities of how this stuff works, which is why I used an expression of conjecture in the first place.

outoftown · October 28, 2011

Anyway, what I really would like to know from you guys is whether you think UNT can pull this of financially? And whether you think there are FBS programs that are gonna fold their tents completely because of this?

Edited October 28, 2011 by outoftown

MeanGreenTexan · October 28, 2011

Anyway, what I really would like to know from you guys is whether you think UNT can pull this of financially? And whether you think there are FBS programs that are gonna fold their tents completely because of this?

Where to we draw this money from? Is this Mean Green Club donation money? Is this athletic fee money? I think finding out where this money comes from would go a long way in trying to answer your question.

I definitely think this could hurt the chances of getting better prospects for teams like ULM, San Jose St. and probably a handful of MAC teams that are poorer due to lack of support. I would assume that they would just stay at what they CAN do instead of dispersing the extra money that would be allowed.

goodsn4 · October 28, 2011

Something to consider is the fact that the NCAA is looking at lowering the scholarship numbers in football to 80, as well as lowering men's and women's basketball scholarship limits. I believe that that is decrease in 10 scholarships that could help offset this new cost. Someone also posted that the SBC had discussions at the Fall meeting about lowering the football scholarship limit in the SBC to 75. I would be more concerned about that.

NewUNTFan8 · October 28, 2011

I'm not sure that's completely accurate. Flyer seems to be the resident expert on this one. Title IX isn't a dollar for dollar match men's to women's scholarships.

Does seem to me that I heard or read that this stipend increase applies to "revenue generating" sports - football and basketball. I'm searching for details now and will post if/when I find it!

NewUNTFan8 · October 28, 2011

The stipend increase applies to "head-count" sports - football and basketball for men, basketball, volleyball, gymnastics and tennis for women. The alternative, "equivalency sports" are able to divide up their scholarship pot to get more recruits. Head-count sports use full-ride scholarships to recruit the best. If basketball only has money for 13 scholarships, they're not going to divide it up; they want to use the full-ride to get the best.

I like the term the NCAA used - they call this a "student-athlete well-being improvement."

Harry · October 28, 2011

The stipend increase applies to "head-count" sports - football and basketball for men, basketball, volleyball, gymnastics and tennis for women. The alternative, "equivalency sports" are able to divide up their scholarship pot to get more recruits. Head-count sports use full-ride scholarships to recruit the best. If basketball only has money for 13 scholarships, they're not going to divide it up; they want to use the full-ride to get the best.

I like the term the NCAA used - they call this a "student-athlete well-being improvement."

Thanks for posting. I'm still trying to digest but at face value you would have to think that the BCS schools would benefit most because their BCS funding will make paying these allotted amounts easy. The smaller programs with lesser budgets will have a tougher time.

goodsn4 · October 29, 2011

I think the Texas State cost for this is only going to be around $275,000 if you factor in the proposed scholarship cuts. Without the cuts it would be closer to $450,000.

NewUNTFan8 · October 29, 2011

Thanks for posting. I'm still trying to digest but at face value you would have to think that the BCS schools would benefit most because their BCS funding will make paying these allotted amounts easy. The smaller programs with lesser budgets will have a tougher time.

That's exactly the problem with it - the haves will have even more and the have nots will have even less. I don't know for sure how scholarships are funded; there is something called "student athlete opportunity fund" but I'm unclear if that's at the institutional level or a higher level. I know with the "anti-education" sentiment growing across the country, any increased funding for higher education is in peril anyway; unless it's a big BCS institution with big donor pockets, I don't know how it can be funded.

NewUNTFan8 · October 29, 2011

We could take this view, however: the stipend is supposed to help curb the student-athlete's temptation to sell memorabilia or accept inappropriate "donations" which is usually more prevalent at those higher level BCS schools. How much is a student-athlete going to make selling UNT gear as opposed to the Miami's and Ohio State's of the world?

TIgreen01 · October 29, 2011

Thanks for posting. I'm still trying to digest but at face value you would have to think that the BCS schools would benefit most because their BCS funding will make paying these allotted amounts easy. The smaller programs with lesser budgets will have a tougher time.

It's awfully hard to digest a turd sandwich....

outoftown · October 29, 2011

Something to consider is the fact that the NCAA is looking at lowering the scholarship numbers in football to 80, as well as lowering men's and women's basketball scholarship limits. I believe that that is decrease in 10 scholarships that could help offset this new cost. Someone also posted that the SBC had discussions at the Fall meeting about lowering the football scholarship limit in the SBC to 75. I would be more concerned about that.

Only 75 ships? really? Not a big difference to FCS anymore then, is it?

Edited October 29, 2011 by outoftown

pastorgrant · October 29, 2011

That's exactly the problem with it - the haves will have even more and the have nots will have even less. I don't know for sure how scholarships are funded; there is something called "student athlete opportunity fund" but I'm unclear if that's at the institutional level or a higher level. I know with the "anti-education" sentiment growing across the country, any increased funding for higher education is in peril anyway; unless it's a big BCS institution with big donor pockets, I don't know how it can be funded.

I hate to be contradictory here, but students athletes are broke and work their butts off for their scholarships. The athletes are the real "have nots." My brother was a full-ride athlete and it was always tough for him. We need to support this, win football games, put butts in the stands, and get into a better conference. There's no reason UNT shouldn't be able to hang with the big boys and keep up with paying for things like this. This simply won't be a problem for us.

And honestly, I care more about the student athletes across the NCAA than about whether or not FAU and similar teams can keep up with the cost of meeting their athletes' needs.

NewUNTFan8 · October 29, 2011

I hate to be contradictory here, but students athletes are broke and work their butts off for their scholarships. The athletes are the real "have nots." My brother was a full-ride athlete and it was always tough for him. We need to support this, win football games, put butts in the stands, and get into a better conference. There's no reason UNT shouldn't be able to hang with the big boys and keep up with paying for things like this. This simply won't be a problem for us.

And honestly, I care more about the student athletes across the NCAA than about whether or not FAU and similar teams can keep up with the cost of meeting their athletes' needs.

I'm all for the increased money going to the athletes themselves. I know one full scholarship player right now who spent the first few weeks without a cent to his name. It was awful. Between classes, studying, practices, team meetings, and adjusting to life far away from home and the support of family, finding a job was next to impossible. The haves and have nots I referred to were the big schools like OU, UT, etc who will now have even more to offer recruits. I think schools like UNT are going to have to find the funds somehow to stay competitive. Things appear to be turning around there though. Hope it can happen