We Complain alot

bleedgreen4ever · October 16, 2011

Turnarounds happen at every level, and different coaches go about it different ways.

As a point of reference, Texas State went 1-6 in the Southland last year. This offseason they hired Dennis Franchione (and some Diet Coke drinkin' dude named Darrell to run the offense), and they already have 5 wins (undefeated against FCS opposition - only losses to Texas Tech and Wyoming).

If we wanted the quick turnaround, wanted the quick fix, this was our hire. We went another way... I believe that RV's feeling was that McCarney was a more solid long-term choice - it's either that or he was scared away by Fran's off field issues (marginal though they may be) or tendency to job-hop. Regardless, Texas State pulled the trigger we didn't, and by early returns, anyway, they're quite happy they did. The flip side, of course, is where TxSt is in five years. Will Fran be there? Historically, the answer is no - though if you're at a critical moment in your program's history and you need to win now (as they move towards FBS), I can scarcely imagine a better scenario for the Cats.... and they could have banked on this: In all his stops other than the A&M debacle, Fran has had his team at 7 wins or more within 1 or 2 years, regardless of what he inherited.

It's all in style, of course. I'm assuming RV went with the more steady, slow-building, methodical McCarney. Most here felt this was a solid choice, and most still do. What many need to realize is that in our small sample size, McCarney is not the quick fix turnaround artist Fran is. He built Iowa State in a very different manner.

Mac's first FIVE seasons at ISU:

3-8
2-9
1-10
3-8
4-7

Now, in his sixth season he broke out with 9 wins, and many argue that it's easier to get good quickly in the Belt (probable, but also consider the sliding scale affects ISU vs. NT as well as the conferences). Some would also point out that McCarney's big seasons were directly linked to the arrival of Sage Rosenfels & Seneca Wallace, which may give us an idea as to how important it is to excel at the QB position in this system.

I think we all expect McCarney to do much better (much faster) here than at ISU. We all agree that if he duplicates his ISU win totals here, he'll never see the fifth season, much less the sixth. I just felt it's worth noting that this is what we bought - a lifer coach who has never been a part of a "quick" turnaround from the head coaching position. This is in NO WAY an indictment of the choice, mind you - I'm still feeling pretty good about where we are - I'm just putting out the idea that it seems RV & Co. was interested in other things beyond the "win now!" philosophy many are expecting to see from this staff. Fran was a win now choice. Mac is the kind of guy, historically, that may play freshmen and build things slowly - which is what we're seeing now... it just needs to move faster this time.

Sure, he may turn around the program in a year or two. He may, he may, he may. We'll see about that. However, I'm tired of hearing excuses when we are unable to finish off winnable games or when we have dominated a game and given up comfortable leads in the fourth quarter. Plus, certain play calls that some fans complain about are completely understandable. Most of us are tired of hearing excuses, I believe. I sure am. I sure expect this program to have a winning season next year. This season, we better start learning how to close off winnable games so it can transfer to next season.

rcade · October 16, 2011

I am sorry, but quit putting up excuses. ... I'm sick and tired of hearing excuses and accepting losing.

It's not making excuses to recognize the fact that this is a new coach's first-year squad. I was hoping for at least 4 wins to help put Dodge behind us quicker, but expecting a Sun Belt title contender in McCarney's first year was incredibly unrealistic.

rcade · October 16, 2011

Coach Mac needs to be able to teach these guys how to finish off games because they have no idea how to play 4 quarters of football.

You keep talking about the fourth quarter. North Texas won both games where we led big in the fourth. A W is a W at this point. Who cares that it got a little ugly at the end?

bleedgreen4ever · October 16, 2011

It's not making excuses to recognize the fact that this is a new coach's first-year squad. I was hoping for at least 4 wins to help put Dodge behind us quicker, but expecting a Sun Belt title contender in McCarney's first year was incredibly unrealistic.

Right, I'm sure it was. ULL's 6 game winning streak was also incredibly unrealistic. We aren't building a team inside the SEC or Big12. While I don't expect to win the Sun Belt this year, I fully expect this team to quit killing their chances in winnable games. It becomes customary and inherent within a team and it needs to be corrected this season. No excuses. We're not trying to build the next national champion here, we're trying to beat SUN BELT teams. There is nothing incredibly unrealistic about fans seeing potential in the team being competitive in the belt, nothing.

bleedgreen4ever · October 16, 2011

You keep talking about the fourth quarter. North Texas won both games where we led big in the fourth. A W is a W at this point. Who cares that it got a little ugly at the end?

Wow. You have a defeated mentality, which has permeated into many NT fans. This mentality pitiful, I think. I can assure you that those two games we had no idea how to kill the game when it should have been done, and it translated into yesterday's horrible 4th quarter performance. A team will never be able to win consistently if it doesn't know how to play in the 4th quarter. We got lucky we won those two games. Might sound harsh, but that's exactly the type of mentality this program needs in order to start learning how to truly win. Yesterday's game was completely winnable.

Edited October 16, 2011 by bleedgreen4ever

oldguystudent · October 16, 2011

As long as we're cherry picking other coaches as examples of instant turnarounds, I'll remind you that June Jones went 3-9 his second year at Hawaii and 1-11 his first year at SMU.

bleedgreen4ever · October 16, 2011

As long as we're cherry picking other coaches as examples of instant turnarounds, I'll remind you that June Jones went 3-9 his second year at Hawaii and 1-11 his first year at SMU.

All of this is irrelevant when you play a WINNABLE game and blow your chances because your team forgets to show up during the last 15 minutes of the game. I'm sure coach Mac is going to turn things around, but he needs to teach this team that they CAN win in the present. Coach to win always, not just to win for the future.

CaribbeanGreen · October 16, 2011

As long as we're cherry picking other coaches as examples of instant turnarounds, I'll remind you that June Jones went 3-9 his second year at Hawaii and 1-11 his first year at SMU.

Only examples on this thread are the guy we just played and the guy we almost hired, so I wouldn't say it's cherry picking. If it's me you're talking about, again, I don't want to give the impression I'm down on McCarney at all - just stating that different coaches rebuild differently. I'm sure there's a case study to be done on June Jones as well, but I care about that a lot less.

From a very outsider perspective, It certainly seems Jones blew the thing up at SMU to get his system in place and it paid dividends by year two... but i don't think we're in quite the same blow up mode.. yes, we're playing freshmen (which is great, IMHO), but we have the same offensive system in place, so it's nowhere near the overhaul of Bennett to Jones (which is epic).

oldguystudent · October 16, 2011

If it's me you're talking about

Nah, I rarely even look at usernames, so I wasn't referring to any one person. I just find it really, really odd that the same fan base who would defend that last coach to the very ends of the universe are so hair triggered with the new coach, in his first season, without a true quarterback. Hell, at 2-5, Mac's winning percentage is a 103% improvement!

Some people see simple play calling. I actually see them opening up the book quite a bit, but the current roster doesn't have the skill set to execute, so we end up reverting back to run up the middle, run up the middle, incomplete pass, punt.

What I don't see on this team is constant confusion and/or looking over to the sideline every 5 seconds like a bunch of dazed deer hopped up on morphine. The fourth quarter issue is, I believe, one of size, not determination. 60 minutes is a long, long time to play football, and the way our defense has been hanging out there 45 minutes per game (hyperbole intended), it's tough to stay at full strength against bigger players no matter how well conditioned you are.

Roster-wise, I think UNT is a good FCS program right now. No amount of coaching is going to make the players grow six inches, put on 50 pounds, or gain a full second in the 40.

On this coaching incarnation, I can wait for the dividends, and I'm going to enjoy the orders of magnitude better gameday experience in the new stadium in the mean time.

CaribbeanGreen · October 16, 2011

No hair trigger here... in fact, patience for the last coach was never a virtue I enjoyed.

To my earlier post, your QB comment rings very true. If it's debatable whether we even have a FBS level QB on the roster, consider McCarney's ISU stint... he turned things around when Rosenfels and Wallace arrived on campus, and not a second before then. Wouldn't be surprised if history repeats here... want success? Land a QB who is far more than a serviceable game manager. Easier said than done, of course.

UNTJarhead0802 · October 17, 2011

F it. Fire him. Better yet, let's take him outback and burn him at the stake. I expected a blowout win at Alabama, and at least a 41 point win over Houston. The fact that we are not the 14th team in the SEC is absolutely a failure in my eyes. I truly had visions of crashing the BCS party this year, and the fact that we might not even go to a bowl game means we need to fire everybody, take out a number of mortgages on Apogee, hire Urban Meyer and hire players to play at UNT. Don't we have a dude who just gave millions of dollars to UNT? Hit him up and tell him we need a solid starting 22 next year.

bleedgreen4ever · October 17, 2011

F it. Fire him. Better yet, let's take him outback and burn him at the stake. I expected a blowout win at Alabama, and at least a 41 point win over Houston. The fact that we are not the 14th team in the SEC is absolutely a failure in my eyes. I truly had visions of crashing the BCS party this year, and the fact that we might not even go to a bowl game means we need to fire everybody, take out a number of mortgages on Apogee, hire Urban Meyer and hire players to play at UNT. Don't we have a dude who just gave millions of dollars to UNT? Hit him up and tell him we need a solid starting 22 next year.

We can't "hire" players. Unless we want to become "that" team. I rather us being bad and ethical than us being another SMU from the 80s. But yes, we really should be a much better program and have regressed so much over the years, it's pathetic.

meangreen · October 17, 2011

I just can't believe how many of you people actually believed that we could win 6 games this year. Too much drinking of the green kool-aid I guess. How quickly we've forgotten that these are the same players, except for a few, that Todd Dodge was working with. This is not going to be a one year turnaround and we all knew that coming into the season, even those who wouldn't admit it knew it too. Coach Mac is a good hire. It takes time and let him work his magic. Give him a couple recruiting classes and see how things are then. Teams don't go from winning under 10 games in 4 years to going to a bowl game in one year, even in the sun belt. Times are changing, but it takes time. Let's sit back, take a breath, and enjoy the bright future of UNT football.

Quoner · October 17, 2011

Teams don't go from winning under 10 games in 4 years to going to a bowl game in one year, even in the sun belt. Times are changing, but it takes time. Let's sit back, take a breath, and enjoy the bright future of UNT football.

Perhaps I could interest you in a lazily and angrily written rebuttal of your main point by cherry-picking a handful of turnaround examples at random?

Just thought I'd try to save everyone another 2 pages of doing that. Anyone got any good links on realignment?

meangreen · October 17, 2011

Perhaps I could interest you in a lazily and angrily written rebuttal of your main point by cherry-picking a handful of turnaround examples at random?

Just thought I'd try to save everyone another 2 pages of doing that. Anyone got any good links on realignment?

Name some

rjmunthe · October 17, 2011

I'm a Texans fan! This is such deja vu for me.

UNTJarhead0802 · October 17, 2011

We can't "hire" players. Unless we want to become "that" team. I rather us being bad and ethical than us being another SMU from the 80s. But yes, we really should be a much better program and have regressed so much over the years, it's pathetic.

Obviously, you missed my sarcasm. I've been repeatedly accused and bashed on this board for having low expectations or being an apologist and accepting failure. I just for once felt like reverberating the overreaction on the board which entertains me for hours.

bleedgreen4ever · October 17, 2011

Obviously, you missed my sarcasm. I've been repeatedly accused and bashed on this board for having low expectations or being an apologist and accepting failure. I just for once felt like reverberating the overreaction on the board which entertains me for hours.

Some of it sounded good though, lol. Why not reach for the stars? Why not NT?

Green Mean · October 17, 2011

Name some

Mike Price - UTEP

Dennis Franchione - TCU and Alabama

Rick Stockstill - MT

Jerry Kill - Northern Illinois

Todd Graham - Rice

These are just to name a few but I am sure there are plenty more. It can be done. We're not in the Big 12.

Edit: Ty Willingham won 10 games at ND his first year when they won 5 games the year before.

Edited October 17, 2011 by Green Mean

meangreen · October 17, 2011

Mike Price - UTEP
Dennis Franchione - TCU and Alabama
Rick Stockstill - MT
Jerry Kill - Northern Illinois
Todd Graham - Rice

These are just to name a few but I am sure there are plenty more. It can be done. We're not in the Big 12.

I'd argue that those programs were not at our level of poor performance in the 5 years prior to Mac. We were the WORST football program in the country during Dodge's reign. The talent level at UTEP, TCU, Alabama, and yes even Rice was much greater for those coaches than ours this year for Mac.

Green Mean · October 17, 2011

Suck is suck. Alabama had more talent but they play superior talent on a regular basis also. The point is that this is the 2nd worst conference in football and good coaching can have a quicker turnaround especially in our conference.

And again while we may have been the worst team in college football, most of the other teams in our conference weren't just a whole ton better.

bleedgreen4ever · October 17, 2011

I'd argue that those programs were not at our level of poor performance in the 5 years prior to Mac. We were the WORST football program in the country during Dodge's reign. The talent level at UTEP, TCU, Alabama, and yes even Rice was much greater for those coaches than ours this year for Mac.

So I'm guessing ULL's talent was MUCH better than ours as well?

Quoner · October 17, 2011

Suck is suck. Alabama had more talent but they play superior talent on a regular basis also. The point is that this is the 2nd worst conference in football and good coaching can have a quicker turnaround especially in our conference.

And again while we may have been the worst team in college football, most of the other teams in our conference weren't just a whole ton better.

The teams we've lost to are a combined 26-6. If we don't win 3 or 4 within this last stretch, then it's possibly time to be as mad as many people are now.

Green Mean · October 17, 2011

The teams we've lost to are a combined 26-6. If we don't win 3 or 4 within this last stretch, then it's possibly time to be as mad as many people are now.

Oh yeah I am not upset about the early schedule because it was a given we probably weren't going to win those. I was just naming people that had good turnarounds in the first season as head coach so it is not something completely foreign and it can be done especially within our conference.

Also you can add Steve Sarkisian to that list. He inherited a WINLESS Washington team adn won 5 games his first year.

Quoner · October 17, 2011

Oh yeah I am not upset about the early schedule because it was a given we probably weren't going to win those. I was just naming people that had good turnarounds in the first season as head coach so it is not something completely foreign and it can be done especially within our conference.

Also you can add Steve Sarkisian to that list. He inherited a WINLESS Washington team adn won 5 games his first year.

True, but the front side of the conference schedule was also front-loaded. The next 5 games will tell us more and if we end the season with 4 or 5 wins with the talent we're working with right now, that's pretty encouraging. I'd love to be 7-5 or better, but we didn't hire the quick turnaround specialist, we hired the guy we thought could build a bigger and better foundation.