The Trenches

[cl_1_2008]

If JJ is seriously injured, our offensive line is in big trouble. Our defensive line is just not good. If we don't improve in the trenches, and quickly, we could be in big trouble. I'm still holding out hope though.

[jimbob]

If JJ is seriously injured, our offensive line is in big trouble. Our defensive line is just not good. If we don't improve in the trenches, and quickly, we could be in big trouble. I'm still holding out hope though.

McCarney is coaching like he's got a pass this year.

[LongJim]

It won't improve quickly. It will take at least two more strong recruiting classes on the OL and DL.

MAC will get it done.

[CaribbeanGreen]

Is this line THAT much worse than last year's when we were putting up big points against K-St.? Yeah, it's young... but Dunbar is still back there, we wished we had Thompson last year, and we scored points.

It's midway through the 4th quarter, and our offense is getting shut out by a Sun Belt defense. Embarrassing. Not just "Welp, the trenches! Give it a couple years!"

[island eagle]

McCarney is coaching like he's got a pass this year.

That's a cheap shot. JC himself wouldn't have done much better. Get real folks...this ship is going to take time to turn around.

[PerryG2480]

The goal line stand at the end of the game was definitely a kick to the nuts.

[greenminer]

Is this line THAT much worse than last year's when we were putting up big points against K-St.? Yeah, it's young... but Dunbar is still back there, we wished we had Thompson last year, and we scored points.

It's midway through the 4th quarter, and our offense is getting shut out by a Sun Belt defense. Embarrassing. Not just "Welp, the trenches! Give it a couple years!"

A true frosh came in and took a starting spot.

Not a single guy from last year's line is playing the same position.

Still don't get it?

[CaribbeanGreen]

A true frosh came in and took a starting spot.

Not a single guy from last year's line is playing the same position.

Still don't get it?

Oh, I "get it".... Waaah. Different positions. A.... gasp!... FRESHMAN!!!

Last five games last year, offensive points scored: 33, 35, 23, 37, 41.

Tonight: 0.

That freshman and guys sliding left to right sure made a huge-assed difference, eh? Imagine if we started TWO freshmen!!!!1! We might just give up safety after safety!!!

I sure am glad I know all these other teams scoring "points" aren't starting freshman and are all returning starters on their lines. I'd think maybe there was a little more going on otherwise.

[ColoradoEagle]

Is this line THAT much worse than last year's when we were putting up big points against K-St.? Yeah, it's young... but Dunbar is still back there, we wished we had Thompson last year, and we scored points.

It's midway through the 4th quarter, and our offense is getting shut out by a Sun Belt defense. Embarrassing. Not just "Welp, the trenches! Give it a couple years!"

Are you serious? This FIU team is much better than that Kansas State team from last year. They're not #1 in the nation or anything, but KSU was pretty awful the last half of the season. We want the Sun Belt to have more respect, but we don't even give any respect to one of its top teams.

[CaribbeanGreen]

Are you serious? This FIU team is much better than that Kansas State team from last year. They're not #1 in the nation or anything, but KSU was pretty awful the last half of the season. We want the Sun Belt to have more respect, but we don't even give any respect to one of its top teams.

Tap the brakes on how great FIU is. Sure, they're Belt-good... maybe they'd even BEAT K-St (not convinced).... but you're saying their defense is 41 points better than K-St's? Wanna rethink that?

I think you're misunderstanding what i said... all I'm saying is a drop off from 40-point performances against Big XII talent to a SHUT OUT against FIU means there's a hell of a lot more offensive issue and blame than to the O-Line. I can't believe that's being debated.

[greenminer]

Oh, I "get it".... Waaah. Different positions. A.... gasp!... FRESHMAN!!!

Last five games last year, offensive points scored: 33, 35, 23, 37, 41.

Tonight: 0.

That freshman and guys sliding left to right sure made a huge-assed difference, eh? Imagine if we started TWO freshmen!!!!1! We might just give up safety after safety!!!

I sure am glad I know all these other teams scoring "points" aren't starting freshman and are all returning starters on their lines. I'd think maybe there was a little more going on otherwise.

That's the worst rebuttal I've ever read. You can do better.

To give you an idea of FIU's O-line, their starting 5 is all JRs and SRs. There are some freshman in the 2-deep, but only one is true. I think you're blowing off what it means when a true freshman comes in and takes an Oline starting spot....for the season opener, no less.

If you look at what our Oline faced, FIU's Dline has no frosh in their two-deep. They have 5 guys with starting experience, an all-Belter, and 73 games played between them.

But mostly, I think you're just in knee-jerk mode. I used to be there, too. I recommend turning off the PC and going to bed.

**EDIT:

As commented by Harry on Twitter, Thompson was taking too much time. It makes FIU look fast, and our OLine performance look worse.

Lastly, FIU led the conference in defense last season. FWIW....

Edited September 2, 2011 by greenminer

[MeanMag]

Is this line THAT much worse than last year's when we were putting up big points against K-St.? Yeah, it's young... but Dunbar is still back there, we wished we had Thompson last year, and we scored points.

It's midway through the 4th quarter, and our offense is getting shut out by a Sun Belt defense. Embarrassing. Not just "Welp, the trenches! Give it a couple years!"

2010 Offensive Game Stats vs FIU (NOT K St.) 31-10

First Downs 13

Total Yds 285

Passing 142

Rushing 143

3rd down conversions 4-17

Turn Overs 0

Dunbar had 30 yds and 1 TD

2011 Offensive Game Stats vs FIU (Still Not K st.) 41-16

First Downs 17

Total Yds 301

Passing 204

Rushing 97

3rd down conversions 4-16

Turn Overs 1

Dunbar had 35 yds

You want to compare to Kansas State? I'll compare to the team that we play every year. It looks a lot like last year. In fact, just like last year.

It was embarrassing last year too if you recall.

The difference:

MacCarney has been on the job less than about 9 months and hasn't coached 1 game...

Dodge had been coaching at UNT for 3 1/2 years. I'm willing to give MacCarney at least 3 1/2 years before I start calling it embarrassing.

Did it cross anyone's mind that maybe Kansas St. had a bad defense? Or that that team in Miami that we play every year has a pretty good one?

So yes, I agree to beat FIU, we need better recruiting classes and better O-line and D-line. And, I agree that it will take time.

[ColoradoEagle]

Tap the brakes on how great FIU is. Sure, they're Belt-good... maybe they'd even BEAT K-St (not convinced).... but you're saying their defense is 41 points better than K-St's? Wanna rethink that?

Than the K-State we played last year? Absolutely. We can play this A to B to C junk all night, but some of you guys make too much out of that game. Last year KSU gave up 41 points to a 3-8 NT. FIU only gave up 10 last year.

Without FIU playing KSU, I have no idea what would happen, but some of you have it stuck in your mind that we're playing in the 2001 Sun Belt, which was basically a glorified 1-AA. This is FBS football, and while no one in the SBC is going to be challenging for the national championship, the play in 2011 is nothing like 2001. It's going to take time for us to get to that level.

Even with all that said, we played one quarter of really bad football tonight, which I think was expected by all but those drunk on the green kool-aid. People talking about being out-coached, burning their season tickets, going to 1-AA, and other crap. You don't just flip a switch and go from worst to first.

[MeanMag]

Oh, I "get it".... Waaah. Different positions. A.... gasp!... FRESHMAN!!!

Last five games last year, offensive points scored: 33, 35, 23, 37, 41.

Tonight: 0.

That freshman and guys sliding left to right sure made a huge-assed difference, eh? Imagine if we started TWO freshmen!!!!1! We might just give up safety after safety!!!

I sure am glad I know all these other teams scoring "points" aren't starting freshman and are all returning starters on their lines. I'd think maybe there was a little more going on otherwise.

Uhm... Last 5 games huh? That would mean you left off the game against the team we played tonight. Want to know how many we scored in that game? 10 points. 10. At least try to come as close as you can to comparing apples to apples.

[MeanMag]

Lastly, FIU led the conference in defense last season. FWIW....

At least one person gets it.

[greenminer]

To clarify, I'm not trying to justify 0 points. It's a big worry for me, too.

I also think a great staff can have a bad day.

Edited September 2, 2011 by greenminer

[CaribbeanGreen]

That's the worst rebuttal I've ever read. You can do better.

To give you an idea of FIU's O-line, their starting 5 is all JRs and SRs. There are some freshman in the 2-deep, but only one is true. I think you're blowing off what it means when a true freshman comes in and takes an Oline starting spot....for the season opener, no less.

If you look at what our Oline faced, FIU's Dline has no frosh in their two-deep. They have 5 guys with starting experience, an all-Belter, and 73 games played between them.

But mostly, I think you're just in knee-jerk mode. I used to be there, too. I recommend turning off the PC and going to bed.

I don't even understand the argument at this point... but regardless of what mood I'm in, I'd feel the same way. Starting a freshman and having a lack of experience on the line does NOT fully justify a shutout, especially with Dunbar back there. There's more blame there... I can't see how this is debatable... and really? Worst rebuttal you've ever read? On THIS board?!? I'm gonna just assume you're joking or drunk and move on....

Would I prefer to start 5 four year starters? Of course I would. Is that reality? No. Not here, not in most place. I'm not comparing our line to FIU. Our line sucked tonight. That's not the point... I'm saying starting a freshman doesn't explain away being shutout by FIU. I'm sorry, but that's a fact.

UL-M is starting TWO freshmen on the OL. Texas A&M is also starting two freshmen on their line. It happens at every level - WORSE than we have it, even. And guess what - I bet they both manage to score offensive points this week. They may not, but I wouldn't bet on it.

I just don't see how this is a rational argument. It's a bit, right? We're not blaming a 41-point drop off, shutout against a Belt team on a Freshman starter, are we?!? All I've argued is that this was much worse than that. The whole offense sucked. "Starting a freshman" and "starters in new places" is a weak, bogus, Dodge-era excuse.

Edited September 2, 2011 by CaribbeanGreen

[CaribbeanGreen]

Okay, I give up. Sorry, I'm not going to climb aboard this "we just can't expect to compete with mighty Florida International" train.

All I'm saying is that our offense getting shut out by FIU was very, very surprising to me, and I feel like if we're being honest it is to most of you as well. It seems to me we all felt a lot of momentum coming off the way the offense was so, so good under Canales the last few games of the year (which I gave the point totals to). Now, with a senior Dunbar back on Walker watch lists, excitement of the new unis, coach, stadium, era.... to act like getting offensively abused is just to be expected or can fully be chalked up to a young O-line isn't being honest or fair.

Raise expectations. I didn't expect to win. I expected to be competitive, and expected a hell of a lot more from the offense. I think most of you did too.

[Green P1]

It's a bit, right? We're not blaming a 41-point drop off, shutout against a Belt team on a Freshman starter, are we?!? All I've argued is that this was much worse than that.

After watching the game I kinda would. Two freshman guards + injured center + what basically is a freshman quarterback = futility.

If you wanna blame Mac for starting the re-building process this hardcore (unless he honestly saw them as the best possible options) maybe we could have that discussion but those 2-4 positions make a pretty damn solid difference.

[CaribbeanGreen]

After watching the game I kinda would. Two freshman guards + injured center + what basically is a freshman quarterback = futility.

If you wanna blame Mac for starting the re-building process this hardcore (unless he honestly saw them as the best possible options) maybe we could have that discussion but those 2-4 positions make a pretty damn solid difference.

Sure they do. Totally agree. The line sucked.

So did pretty much every other position on the field except Chancellor. That's all I'm sayin'. Lots of blame to go around... we still shouldn't be getting shut out in conference.

[Got5onIt]

Okay, I give up. Sorry, I'm not going to climb aboard this "we just can't expect to compete with mighty Florida International" train.

All I'm saying is that our offense getting shut out by FIU was very, very surprising to me, and I feel like if we're being honest it is to most of you as well. It seems to me we all felt a lot of momentum coming off the way the offense was so, so good under Canales the last few games of the year (which I gave the point totals to). Now, with a senior Dunbar back on Walker watch lists, excitement of the new unis, coach, stadium, era.... to act like getting offensively abused is just to be expected or can fully be chalked up to a young O-line isn't being honest or fair.

Raise expectations. I didn't expect to win. I expected to be competitive, and expected a hell of a lot more from the offense. I think most of you did too.

Don't forget Thompson started his first game. Preliminary reports aren't sounding too promising either. This will probably be a musical quarterbacks year until someone steps up or a bonafide recruit comes in. This was a bad team the last 4 years. You're forced to bring pretty much the same players back from those bad teams. You wont see it change overnight. Hell, it may even get worse before it gets better.

Save the knee jerking for mid season. This is only week one, you'll see 360 degrees of changes on this squad until then. If week 1 looks like week 8, then we can all knee jerk....

[Mean Green 93-98]

Save the knee jerking for mid season. This is only week one, you'll see 360 degrees of changes on this squad until then. If week 1 looks like week 8, then we can all knee jerk....

Not sure that would qualify as bona fide knee jerking. We try to do things right around here.

[MeanMag]

Okay, I give up. Sorry, I'm not going to climb aboard this "we just can't expect to compete with mighty Florida International" train.

All I'm saying is that our offense getting shut out by FIU was very, very surprising to me, and I feel like if we're being honest it is to most of you as well. It seems to me we all felt a lot of momentum coming off the way the offense was so, so good under Canales the last few games of the year (which I gave the point totals to). Now, with a senior Dunbar back on Walker watch lists, excitement of the new unis, coach, stadium, era.... to act like getting offensively abused is just to be expected or can fully be chalked up to a young O-line isn't being honest or fair.

Raise expectations. I didn't expect to win. I expected to be competitive, and expected a hell of a lot more from the offense. I think most of you did too.

I always expect to be competitive against whoever we play, but quoting point totals to the last 5 games and intentionally leaving off the 6th (FIU) in which we scored 10 points and expecting a huge difference is naive. What's really changed since last year? Almost nothing. We played them in the 1st game this year instead of the 7th, like last year. We even had the same offensive coordinator in that game. How is any of this surprising?

[greenminer]

Wow. Thanks for the condescension, but I'll pass. I don't even understand the argument at this point... but regardless of what mood I'm in, I'd feel the same way. Starting a freshman and having a lack of experience on the line does NOT fully justify a shutout, especially with Dunbar back there. There's more blame there... I can't see how this is debatable... and really? Worst rebuttal you've ever read? On THIS board?!? I'm gonna just assume you're joking or drunk and move on....

Would I prefer to start 5 four year starters? Of course I would. Is that reality? No. Not here, not in most place. I'm not comparing our line to FIU. Our line sucked tonight. That's not the point... I'm saying starting a freshman doesn't explain away being shutout by FIU. I'm sorry, but that's a fact.

UL-M is starting TWO freshmen on the OL. Texas A&M is also starting two freshmen on their line. It happens at every level - WORSE than we have it, even. And guess what - I bet they both manage to score offensive points this week. They may not, but I wouldn't bet on it.

I just don't see how this is a rational argument. It's a bit, right? We're not blaming a 41-point drop off, shutout against a Belt team on a Freshman starter, are we?!? All I've argued is that this was much worse than that. The whole offense sucked. "Starting a freshman" and "starters in new places" is a weak, bogus, Dodge-era excuse. You can do better.

It's okay to be upset about this. I am, too. But if we're going to have this all figured out, why not go all out? The 1st quarter pace was all-too reminiscent of Dodge Game 1. So, I think it is safe to say that the next 4 years are going down the tube, and going down in humiliation.

If you want to talk rational arguments, then you're going to have to explain why you're trying to use the last 5 games of 2010 as a benchmark for this year's performance. Is it really as simple as "we still have Chico"? Should it be that simple?

I am just going to chill out and watch the next two seasons unfold. Because this is what we got, like it or not. And I don't know if it gets any better than this for NT, regarding facilities and staff.

Also, I don't believe anyone is blaming this solely on a freshman starting in our OLine. But thanks for throwing that out there.

[CaribbeanGreen]

Don't forget Thompson started his first game. Preliminary reports aren't sounding too promising either. This will probably be a musical quarterbacks year until someone steps up or a bonafide recruit comes in. This was a bad team the last 4 years. You're forced to bring pretty much the same players back from those bad teams. You wont see it change overnight. Hell, it may even get worse before it gets better.

Save the knee jerking for mid season. This is only week one, you'll see 360 degrees of changes on this squad until then. If week 1 looks like week 8, then we can all knee jerk....

I agree with almost everything here... I admit, I expected more from Thompson. That's part of my argument in this thread - he deserves some blame as well. If you read Harry's tweets, he held on to the thing waaaay too long at times. Freshmen on the O-Line or not, that gets a QB killed. I'm honestly surprised, as Thompson has shown pretty impressive flashes in the past.

I hope we don't see musical chairs there, but I'm afraid you'll be right. As for knee jerking, sure, maybe a little. It's probably focused here because the defense has been terrible for a long time, but the offense has put up points... and tonight, it was just so, so ineffective at almost every spot.