Defining Greatness Again

[Travis]

This is what most people that bag on DD don't give him credit for...his run brought many, many fans to the program that are still fans today.

By this standard we could say Dodge was great because it grew much more while he was here.

[greenminer]

I get plenty of facepalm reading these DD threads, but I always come back looking for a former player to chime in. I love reading those posts and their defense of DD 'til the end. And you know what? I support those guys.

[UNTFan23]

Despite all his greatness he hasn't been a head coach for another school at any level. Due to all the trouble he caused at the end of his tenure I don't think he will ever get another head coaching gig for anyone.

[GrandGreen]

DD was a very interesting coach, who overall doesn't get enough credit for the things he accomplished. However, he was his own worst enemy and IMO far from great. DD lived on one inexplicable good recruiting class led by the best player in recent history, Booger Kennedy. That class I believe 2001 had 8 players rated in a state one hundred. Buckles, Zuniga, Spencer, Carey, Gardner, Brewster, Hall, Kennedy and others were just that talented. DD played a style of ball that he won all the games were he had the most talent but seldom challenged in games were he didn't.

One of my pet peeves, is people in particular NT fans who downplay NT's incredible run during the first four years of the Belt. I see constant references to NT won in a very weak league and today's teams are just much better. The facts are that NT was the most dominating team in Belt history and when challenged those that claim that the Belt is much stronger now just cannot make that case. More winning teams now but that is wholly due to more conference games, not the Belt significantly moving up in the football world. The truth is that NT got a lot worse, the conference did not get substantially better. North Texas is the only team that has ever gone through the Belt undefeated and they did it three straight years. No way to prove it, but I think the the middle two conference champions teams of NT could have played with and probably beat any team the Belt has had;

Back to Dickey as a coach. In my view, no coach is great that constantly berates his position and employer. In addition, his "Us against the World" style cannot be sustained and his negativity eventually wrecked the program. If DD had worked hard and build on those championship instead of hiring an agent and trying to move on; then NT and he would have been much better off.

As far as Vitos obvious bias. I guess it is understandable, but defining greatness has being better than Simon and Dodge is very shaky ground. I don't blame Vito at all for reporting on the alleged racial problems of Dodge. However, I think it is rather naive to assume that all is going to be rosy after that. Dickey apparently treated Vito well and it is too bad he didn't have the same respect for the school and its fans.

All that is history now, Dickey will be remembered more fondly as the years past. The hiring of Dodge will always be looked at as a monumental blunder. Both are likely to be in coaching for a long time and it will be interesting to see their progress. NT has a new coach and frankly a lot more to work with than either Dickey or Dodge had, the future should be bright.

[Green Lantern]

By this standard we could say Dodge was great because it grew much more while he was here.

Not really the same thing since the consecutive conference games winning streak and bowl appearances are typically what drew fans in during DD's years here. These are on the field results. Dodge had the same opportunity to pull off this kind of winning streak and appear in bowls (actually more secondary tie in's availble for the SBC during these years) and was unable to accomplish this feat.

I don't really care if people call DD "great" or not. I dislike the tendency of some fans to downplay what the players and the program accomplished during that era because it was, if fact, very significant in terms of NT's football history.

Side note: Dodge's hire definitely intrigued/excited people initially and it helped spark some positive things in the program as well.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Green Lantern

[NCMeanGreen]

I wish I knew how much of a hand DD had in recruiting the players. I say this b/c DD's success was predicated on the level of players that he had playing for him. I thought DD was blessed with some GREAT players!

THAT was the GREATNESS (Cobbs, Booger, Quinn, Jones, Thomas, etc.) that needs to be defined...NOT DD!!!

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

Look, we went to school at North Texas. Some of us to NTSU, some to UNT; but, still, North Texas.

Now, the arguments for and against Darrell Dickey are stupid and pointless. He did a better job than anyone post-Return To D-IA Era. That cannot be questioned.

The problem with us is that our administration cared so little about athletics that it shuttled us down to I-AA right after some very successful years with Mitchell and Fry. They just didn't give a damn about it.

Once we rehatched, the D-IA college football world was completely difference. The OU/Georgia lawsuit giving schools the rights to pursue television deals outside the NCAA's reach had occurred. The conferences followed suit. Soon, it became a money-making proposition to the bigger schools.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, we were playing Sam Houston State, Stephen F. Austin, ans Southwest Texas State - nowhere close to the reality of what was happening in college football.

So, Matt Simon get dumped right in the middle of it in 1995, one year after replacing a high school coach. Program all over the land were already in the midst of multimillion dollar expansions of their football programs. Us? We were playing in a glorified high school stadium.

Simon is tossed in favor of Dickey. Dickey had the same lack of resources Simon did. Somehow, he scratched together a set of teams in the early 2000s that succeeded in spite of it. But, it couldn't last forever. There just wasn't anything to offer.

People talk Boise, South Florida, Connecticut, etc., etc. Well, the got multimillion dollar commitments for their programs with school administrators on board working in tandem with the private sector grads and their athletic departments.

We just didn't have it. Simon didn't have it. Dickey didn't have it. I respect Darrell Dickey for what he gave us, working with what he had.

It doesn't matter to me that no one else made him a head coach. He's been employed ever since he was booted from here.

Todd Dodge was completely unprepared. It wasn't totally his fault. We just didn't have the scratch at the time to go out and get a real coach. He was Fool's Gold to many...and, he's in a better place now for him.

What we have now is an opportunity. We now have the better facilities that everyone else was making 20 years ago. We are paying assistants more than ever. We have great athletic facilities and an administration that is more sympathetic to the cause than any in the past.

The only thing left to do is win. We have no more excuses. I won't excuse it. We've been given what we asked for - what Simon, Dickey, and Dodge lacked when UNT returned to Big Boy Play: A real stadium, real coaches, and real support.

There are no more excuses. We have now all the things in place we groused about - even green helmets. The only thing, really, that prevents this battle station from being fully operational now is the "UNT logo on the green helmets. But, we can still blow up Princess Leia's planet anyway without it.

KA-POW!

[Mean Green 93-98]

The only thing, really, that prevents this battle station from being fully operational now is the "UNT logo on the green helmets.

I wanted to +1 you so badly, then you had to go and do that.

[BIG DAWG]

DD did not leave this program in shambles, academically or talent wise. For every bad apple there were countless individuals getting it done in the classroom and graduating.

He left us a QB in Danny Meager who was talented enough to make an amazing transition of a mostly run first offense to a passing one, and did it well enough to set a school passing record against SMU in Dodges' first year. He also left us with a national rushing champion running back in Jamario Thomas. Defensively Jeremiah Chapman ended his final season second in all the nation in tackles for defensive ends.

Regardless of DD's shortcomings, poor decisions with his staff and public gaffes later on in his carreer, he is and always will be an important figure in North Texas football history. And for that I greatly respect him and expect that he will be in the NT Hall Of Fame someday.

Rick

Also, look at how many players either got shots in the NFL, or camp invites under Dickey...Spencer (drafted), Kassell (almost made the Pro Bowl with a 100+ tackle season w/ the Titans), Patrock Cobbs (still has significant role w/ Dolphins), Johnny Quinn (made it deep in 2 training camps with Bills and Packers), Chapman (tryout w/ Vikings), Awasom (should have won a Super Bowl w/ the Giants, and will be back in the NFL w/ the Vikings this season), and I forgot about Kennedy who made it deep into camps w/ the Lions & Bronco

And against the argument that it was a week Sunbelt Conference, he didn't just make it by in the league, he won 26 straight, and coached conference players of the year in Kennedy (twice) and Hurd.

I know other NT coaches sent players to the league, but DD sent his fair share and doesn't get credit for that either.

Finally, in terms of holding his Buick-style offense against him, I didn't hear people complaining when Galbreath, Cobbs, and Thomas were running crazy all over the field. Especially when Cobbs and Thomas were running for 200+ yds it seemed in every game. He knew what games counted and won those...I wish he would have thrown the ball in that damn TCU game more than anyone, but I loved knowing that when I came to a Sunbelt game at Fouts I knew it wasn't going to be if we were going to win, but by how much!

[GrandGreen]

Look, we went to school at North Texas. Some of us to NTSU, some to UNT; but, still, North Texas.

Now, the arguments for and against Darrell Dickey are stupid and pointless. He did a better job than anyone post-Return To D-IA Era. That cannot be questioned.

The problem with us is that our administration cared so little about athletics that it shuttled us down to I-AA right after some very successful years with Mitchell and Fry. They just didn't give a damn about it.

Once we rehatched, the D-IA college football world was completely difference. The OU/Georgia lawsuit giving schools the rights to pursue television deals outside the NCAA's reach had occurred. The conferences followed suit. Soon, it became a money-making proposition to the bigger schools.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, we were playing Sam Houston State, Stephen F. Austin, ans Southwest Texas State - nowhere close to the reality of what was happening in college football.

So, Matt Simon get dumped right in the middle of it in 1995, one year after replacing a high school coach. Program all over the land were already in the midst of multimillion dollar expansions of their football programs. Us? We were playing in a glorified high school stadium.

Simon is tossed in favor of Dickey. Dickey had the same lack of resources Simon did. Somehow, he scratched together a set of teams in the early 2000s that succeeded in spite of it. But, it couldn't last forever. There just wasn't anything to offer.

People talk Boise, South Florida, Connecticut, etc., etc. Well, the got multimillion dollar commitments for their programs with school administrators on board working in tandem with the private sector grads and their athletic departments.

We just didn't have it. Simon didn't have it. Dickey didn't have it. I respect Darrell Dickey for what he gave us, working with what he had.

It doesn't matter to me that no one else made him a head coach. He's been employed ever since he was booted from here.

Todd Dodge was completely unprepared. It wasn't totally his fault. We just didn't have the scratch at the time to go out and get a real coach. He was Fool's Gold to many...and, he's in a better place now for him.

What we have now is an opportunity. We now have the better facilities that everyone else was making 20 years ago. We are paying assistants more than ever. We have great athletic facilities and an administration that is more sympathetic to the cause than any in the past.

The only thing left to do is win. We have no more excuses. I won't excuse it. We've been given what we asked for - what Simon, Dickey, and Dodge lacked when UNT returned to Big Boy Play: A real stadium, real coaches, and real support.

There are no more excuses. We have now all the things in place we groused about - even green helmets. The only thing, really, that prevents this battle station from being fully operational now is the "UNT logo on the green helmets. But, we can still blow up Princess Leia's planet anyway without it.

KA-POW!

Agree with most of your points, however DD's success was almost entirely against the Belt. The significance of that, is that none of the Belt programs had anymore then and certainly don't now to offer than NT. DD had a very big advantage over the early Belt in that NT had a bigger name, better recruiting area, and in those days tended to get their pick of the trickle down recruits over any of the close Belt members. Dickey and NT lost those advantages I think in part to DD's lack of aggressive recruiting and preoccupation with wanting a better opportunity and his overall "woe is me" outlook. Look at the Belt competition and tell me that NT even with it's then limited resources should be behind little Troy or the Florida schools who still get little support. The conference did as a whole increase their budgets in the Dodge years, but I don't think the lack of resources was a valid excuse in the Belt for Dickey no matter how much he repeated it.

Dickey was an early success but did everything but fire himself with his attitude and lack of recruiting and wins in his last few years. Dodge was a big risk that blew up but those that believe the program was in good shape when he was hired just were not paying attention.

Edited June 29, 2011 by GrandGreen

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

Agree with most of your points, however DD's success was almost entirely against the Belt. The significance of that, is that none of the Belt programs had anymore then and certainly don't now to offer than NT. DD had a very big advantage over the early Belt in that NT had a bigger name, better recruiting area, and in those days tended to get their pick of the trickle down recruits over any of the close Belt members. Dickey and NT lost those advantages I think in part to DD's lack of aggressive recruiting and preoccupation with wanting a better opportunity and his overall "woe is me" outlook. Look at the Belt competition and tell me that NT even with it's then limited resources should be behind little Troy or the Florida schools who still get little support. The conference did as a whole increase their budgets in the Dodge years, but I don't think the lack of resources was a valid excuse in the Belt for Dickey no matter how much he repeated it.

Dickey was an early success but did everything but fire himself with his attitude and lack of recruiting and wins in his last few years. Dodge was a big risk that blew up but those that believe the program was in good shape when he was hired just were not paying attention.

--- I didn't especially like the offensive game style of Dickey....but respected him until he pulled the black uniform incident... That was classless.

--- I don't dislike Dodge, he took over a down weakened program..... his big error was not hiring college-quality assistant-coaches (especially defensive ones) in the beginning and it went south from there. At least he did not trash us as he went out the door. He understood that he needed to do better than he did to keep his job.

--- Conference... I would rather be somewhere else ..but we aren't... so we need to win here.. maybe things will change, either the conference gets much better with more respect or we get to move on.

--- Just win ... and don't it like those slimeballs in Ohio with tutors writing papers, Clarette type players, and players selling goods with coaches knowing. ....

..

Edited June 29, 2011 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[oldguystudent]

Hopefully the new coaching staff in the new stadium will make enough noise come football season, that Brett can stop subtly beating the many times over dead Todd Dodge horse and start writing about things that are/will happen with the program going forward. Doesn't seem healthy for anyone involved to get into the resulting pissing matches over past coaching staffs.

Coaching staffs come and go, but everyone here, for better or for worse, is affiliated with North Texas until the shovelfuls of dirt start flying down from six feet up. Continually allowing the past to drive a wedge into the fan base is...wait for it...baseless.

[All About UNT]

good God I can't wait until September 1st....Miami bound.

[untjim1995]

Dickey gets credit for two things to me. First, he recruited well when he tried hard to recruit. Kennedy, Buckles, Craig Jones, Jamario, Scott Hall, Cobbs, Kevin Galbreath, Awasom, Hurd, Quinn, etc..are great examples of this. Secondly, he realized that we could actually beat these SBC teams by running a simple gameplan and he accomplished it regularly for 4 straight years.

However, no one will ever convince me that after we won the NO Bowl in 2002 that Dickey didn't believe that he would be coaching somewhere else. I am certain of this and the recruiting--and blasting of our alma mater afterwards--seems to supply the proof of this. When he let his OC fight an alum in the stands and never even reprimanded him (much less fired him), we should have known what was going on. Again, Hutch Black Jersey Night confirmed most of this. The NO Bowls were great times for all who follow UNT, especially since it validated us being at the 1-A level. But when you look at the fact that attendance never improved during his tenure, which it did under Dodge, and that his record against OOC teams was atrocious, the rest of the college football world seemed to look at Dickey with an asterisk. That is how I feel about him. He could have accomplished even more here than what he did, but it really appears when looking back at the end of his tenure as if he knew that he would get fired and that he was pretty much ok with that.

[letsgiveacheer]

I think now we see why McCarney is so controversial on the Iowa State board. He did things there that no one had done before but he did it sandwiched between some pretty miserable seasons. There are some interesting parallels here.