About Who We Play In The Pit

All About UNT · June 1, 2011

So there has been a bunch of talk about weak SOS recently and weak attendance. The games against OSU and TTU show that the student body is engaged and most esp when our opponents in The Pit are recognizable names. Others counter with the "well we can't get anyone to show up and play us in The Pit" argument. This lead me to question what do the mid-majors out there get for their own home games and are Big 6 teams equally as scared to play them in their own home. Someone.....please tell me why these teams hosted major schools on their home court during 2010-2011. Is it money? Is it something else I am missing?

Mid-Majors Home Games of Interest 2010-2011:

Butler: Duke, Stanford, Utah, Florida St., Washington State

VCU: UCLA, Tenn.

George Mason: nothing too crazy

ODU: Georgetown, Clemson, Xavier, Richmond (cross-town rival)

Wichita State: UConn, UVA, LSU, Tulsa

Gonzaga: Marquette, K-State, SDSU, Illinois, Baylor, OK-State, Xavier

and so on.....I can't continue all night cause the Mavs are about to play :thumbsu:

So maybe Home and Homes with these teams is what we need most....and are most realistic to achieve.

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emmitt01 · June 1, 2011

The answer is that the teams you list are good "resume builders" if you beat them. They have been fortunate enough to put together the tournament runs that make them quality wins. We are not gonna get a aTm, UT, or even UTEP to come to our place because they fear us using them as a stepping stone to become a Gonzaga, Butler or even a Wichita State. So, yes, the "teams won't play us" argument is very much valid. And there is still no strong response to "show up to see YOUR school and the higher attendance will open up doors" argument. None. Not a one. Wanna know why UTEP gets the respect they do...not because of a recent tournament run, because their fans show up (and pay special attention to this part) REGARDLESS of opponent.

All About UNT · June 1, 2011

The answer is that the teams you list are good "resume builders" if you beat them. They have been fortunate enough to put together the tournament runs that make them quality wins. We are not gonna get a aTm, UT, or even UTEP to come to our place because they fear us using them as a stepping stone to become a Gonzaga, Butler or even a Wichita State. So, yes, the "teams won't play us" argument is very much valid. And there is still no strong response to "show up to see YOUR school and the higher attendance will open up doors" argument. None. Not a one. Wanna know why UTEP gets the respect they do...not because of a recent tournament run, because their fans show up (and pay special attention to this part) REGARDLESS of opponent.

At 3,600 a game (last I checked) that is still right about the median of the very league we aspire to be in...the CUSA.

I agree that attendance should be higher no matter who we play and that the Sunbelt regulating the playing of the likes of Devry and Southeastern OK Technical Wesleyan will no doubt help us in our drive to play better teams in the Pit.

I am just saying that a couple solid mid-majors would be better than nothing....and far more achievable to get a home and home with vs. trying for SEC and Big 12 Teams.

NT03 · June 1, 2011

I am just saying that a couple solid mid-majors would be better than nothing....and far more achievable to get a home and home with vs. trying for SEC and Big 12 Teams.

We were so desperate to fill our schedule year before last we had to settle for a non return game @ Boise. It wasn't from a lack of trying because I know that we had contacted over 30 schools for a home and home. Guess what , we got 30 + '" No Thank Yous"

TheTastyGreek · June 1, 2011

So there has been a bunch of talk about weak SOS recently and weak attendance. The games against OSU and TTU show that the student body is engaged and most esp when our opponents in The Pit are recognizable names. Others counter with the "well we can't get anyone to show up and play us in The Pit" argument. This lead me to question what do the mid-majors out there get for their own home games and are Big 6 teams equally as scared to play them in their own home. Someone.....please tell me why these teams hosted major schools on their home court during 2010-2011. Is it money? Is it something else I am missing?

Mid-Majors Home Games of Interest 2010-2011:

Butler: Duke, Stanford, Utah, Florida St., Washington State

VCU: UCLA, Tenn.

George Mason: nothing too crazy

ODU: Georgetown, Clemson, Xavier, Richmond (cross-town rival)

Wichita State: UConn, UVA, LSU, Tulsa

Gonzaga: Marquette, K-State, SDSU, Illinois, Baylor, OK-State, Xavier

and so on.....I can't continue all night cause the Mavs are about to play

So maybe Home and Homes with these teams is what we need most....and are most realistic to achieve.

A lot of the games you're reading as "home games" weren't home games. They were tournament/neutral site games.

Wichita State didn't host UConn, UVA, or LSU. They played both Connecticut and Virginia in Hawaii as part of the Maui Invitational, and LSU at a "neutral site" in Bossier City.

VCU didn't host Tennessee or UCLA, they played them both at Madison Square Garden as part of the NIT season tip-off.

Old Dominion played Clemson and Xavier in the Virgin Islands.

Butler played Duke in New Jersey and Utah/FSU/Washington State in Honolulu. Even after making the finals, the only BCS team that played them at their house was Stanford, and that was a game that guaranteed the Pac 10 one of only 5 total network broadcast games all year.

Gonzaga played "neutral site" games in Kansas City against K-State and Marquette, a "neutral site" game against Baylor at the AAC in Dallas, and a more favorable neutral site game in Seattle (300 miles away from campus) against Illinois.

Even for the "breakthrough" teams, it's tough to get decent OOC games or power conference teams to agree to series where they play you at your house. Even Gonzaga only got one BCS team to play them in Spokane last year... Oklahoma State.

NT03 · June 1, 2011

+1

TheTastyGreek · June 1, 2011

+1

It's an honest mistake.

Some years (2 seasons ago) I hate how crappy our home slate is. Some years (last and presumably next season) I can't believe it's as good as it is.

Considering the challenges we face, I think we're doing a decent if not always spectacular job of filling the OOC slate.

All About UNT · June 1, 2011

Right when 15 minutes ago I was wondering where Tasty had gone... he delivers just the info and reassurance I was looking for. That makes me feel quite a bit better about the situation. So Are we shooting for regional mid majors?

UNT90 · June 1, 2011

If no one will play us at home, then how did we get 1 and 1s with LSU and Tech?

Hell, do a 2 for 1 with some of these schools. The schedule needs to be improved, because, like it or not, right or wrong, you aren't going to reach the average UNT student by winning Sun Belt games. The wins against Tech and LSU last year help, and with what we have coming, now is the time to increase the competition level, even if you gotta go on the road to play them.

I absolutely love the Nov 29th game, win or lose.

Eastwood Eagle · June 1, 2011

What game is Nov 29th?

All About UNT · June 1, 2011

Texas if I recall....right 90?

TheTastyGreek · June 1, 2011

Right when 15 minutes ago I was wondering where Tasty had gone... he delivers just the info and reassurance I was looking for. That makes me feel quite a bit better about the situation. So Are we shooting for regional mid majors?

Not to sound like an apologist, but I think we do a reasonable job with what we've got to work with.

We're not geographically fortunate like an Old Dominion or Temple, where there are dozens of regional legit basketball schools to potentially sign series with. SMU and TCU are off the table right away because of their refusal to play us.

We had a home-and-home with Tulsa, swept it, and they haven't scheduled us since. We had a home-and-home with Rice, swept it, and I don't expect we'll be playing them again anytime soon. Houston was a pretty consistent series until we got on our current run.

The BCS schools that qualify as regional either won't play us on the road (Texas, A&M, Oklahoma, Arkansas) or have played us in home-and-homes or 2-for-1s (Baylor, OSU, Tech, LSU) and have lost games to us in exchange.

UTEP is almost exactly the same distance as USA, so I wouldn't classify them as "regional". NMSU isn't, either, but we did a home-and-home with them recently (and swept it). Schools that I would consider respectable mid-majors (like Sam Houston State) cause our fan base to shit themselves with rage when we drop 1 out of 3 against them.

We've gone out and swept an MVC team (Indiana State) in a home-and-home recently, and haven't booked another one with an MVC team since. When we were still early in rebuilding, we swept a home-and-home with Missouri State (2001-02 and 02-03). I don't think we're unwilling to play MVC teams, I just think they aren't interested in playing us anymore.

I think that, from a perception standpoint, we're screwed. We're not going to get Big 12 teams to come here on an annual basis, because teams in that league don't have to travel if they don't want to or don't have a damn good reason to do it. And we keep making the ones that do travel to us regret it. We play at least one game per year against a CUSA team in a home-and-home deal, and even those are going to get harder to lock down because we keep beating them, here or there. Where else do we go for regional teams? Southland? SWAC? Nobody respects those games. Travel farther, and you're burning money on flights that could cost you a home guarantee game or two.

And we can't get in marquee MTE tournaments because we don't hit 2 of the main selection criteria: We don't get TV exposure, and we don't have fans that travel to buy tickets.

When:

1) Many of the nearby non-BCS programs flat refuse to play us

2) The ones that will/would get swept and start shifting to Category 1

3) The BCS teams that give us home games keep getting beaten here

4) We can't get neutral site games because we aren't picked for in-year tournaments

It's tough to fill out a good schedule.

UNT90 · June 1, 2011

Texas if I recall....right 90?

Yes

UNT90 · June 1, 2011

Not to sound like an apologist, but I think we do a reasonable job with what we've got to work with.

We're not geographically fortunate like an Old Dominion or Temple, where there are dozens of regional legit basketball schools to potentially sign series with. SMU and TCU are off the table right away because of their refusal to play us.

We had a home-and-home with Tulsa, swept it, and they haven't scheduled us since. We had a home-and-home with Rice, swept it, and I don't expect we'll be playing them again anytime soon. Houston was a pretty consistent series until we got on our current run.

The BCS schools that qualify as regional either won't play us on the road (Texas, A&M, Oklahoma, Arkansas) or have played us in home-and-homes or 2-for-1s (Baylor, OSU, Tech, LSU) and have lost games to us in exchange.

UTEP is almost exactly the same distance as USA, so I wouldn't classify them as "regional". NMSU isn't, either, but we did a home-and-home with them recently (and swept it). Schools that I would consider respectable mid-majors (like Sam Houston State) cause our fan base to shit themselves with rage when we drop 1 out of 3 against them.

We've gone out and swept an MVC team (Indiana State) in a home-and-home recently, and haven't booked another one with an MVC team since. When we were still early in rebuilding, we swept a home-and-home with Missouri State (2001-02 and 02-03). I don't think we're unwilling to play MVC teams, I just think they aren't interested in playing us anymore.

I think that, from a perception standpoint, we're screwed. We're not going to get Big 12 teams to come here on an annual basis, because teams in that league don't have to travel if they don't want to or don't have a damn good reason to do it. And we keep making the ones that do travel to us regret it. We play at least one game per year against a CUSA team in a home-and-home deal, and even those are going to get harder to lock down because we keep beating them, here or there. Where else do we go for regional teams? Southland? SWAC? Nobody respects those games. Travel farther, and you're burning money on flights that could cost you a home guarantee game or two.

And we can't get in marquee MTE tournaments because we don't hit 2 of the main selection criteria: We don't get TV exposure, and we don't have fans that travel to buy tickets.

When:
1) Many of the nearby non-BCS programs flat refuse to play us
2) The ones that will/would get swept and start shifting to Category 1
3) The BCS teams that give us home games keep getting beaten here
4) We can't get neutral site games because we aren't picked for in-year tournaments

It's tough to fill out a good schedule.

Agree that the home schedule may be hard to improve, and I think that JJ has done a pretty good job of bringing in at least one marque team a year on a semi=consistent basis recently, but that doesn't excuse the road schedule. It looks like that may be changing a little bit this year.

The problem is our RPI. Those teams would be far more likely to play us at our place if a loss wouldn't completely destroy their RPI ranking. So, how do we improve our RPI? Beat good teams (by that, I mean top 50 RPI teams) on the road. Beating those teams raises your RPI, raises your student interest level, and raises your national reputation.

So again, it all comes back to winning against good competition.

NT03 · June 1, 2011

If no one will play us at home, then how did we get 1 and 1s with LSU and Tech?

Texas Tech was a owed game from over 10 years ago (maybe 20 , i can't recall). Texas Tech finally got a head coach who would step up to the plate , but unfortunately just got fired. I highly doubt BCG will ever want to come to Denton

LSU , well that was all JJ

I too would be all for 2 for 1's if it meant better competition comes to the Pit

Edited June 1, 2011 by NT03

Roadruner · June 1, 2011

Agree that the home schedule may be hard to improve, and I think that JJ has done a pretty good job of bringing in at least one marque team a year on a semi=consistent basis recently, but that doesn't excuse the road schedule. It looks like that may be changing a little bit this year.

The problem is our RPI. Those teams would be far more likely to play us at our place if a loss wouldn't completely destroy their RPI ranking. So, how do we improve our RPI? Beat good teams (by that, I mean top 50 RPI teams) on the road. Beating those teams raises your RPI, raises your student interest level, and raises your national reputation.

So again, it all comes back to winning against good competition.

You are right about the RPI – if you don’t win your conference then the only other thing the NCAA looks at for tournament selection is your record against top 50 teams – last year our record against top 50 teams was 0-1.

We need to schedule at least 7 or 8 top 50 teams per year to be in the selection mix if we don’t win our conference – I feel they will play us if we would try to schedule - I mean what do they have to fear – we have never won a first round NCAA tournament game – and lose regularly to top 50 teams.

UNTMike81 · June 1, 2011

The other side to the scheduling coin is when you're 4-26 you can go on the road and play a Big 6 game for the money and a loss. Over the past 5 yrs. JJ has had to recruit to build teams that could play on the court, and then schedule teams so UNT had a shot at 20 plus wins. Then that level of competition had to get us ready to play for belt title. Then recruit better players, so when we scheduled the few average to good Big 6 conference schools to come to the pit UNT had an even to good chance to win. Getting the Big 6 games at home or away is one thing, winning the games are another. Without the wins scheduling at home or away become a mute (sp) point.

JJ has done a fantastic job scheduling over the last 5 years to get this team where it is so he can get the recruits to enhance UNT's BB reputation. Now we have the recruits coming in where we can actually have good OCC home or away conversation. Now we have to realistically account for Big 6 teams not wanting to play us at home because here's a reasonable chance that team will suffer a loss at the Pit. This puts all the teams that would like to consider themselves on par with UNT in the same boat. Come to the Pit and suffer a loss.

Now the AD is in a pinch because they have to pay a higher guarantee to get schools to come play at the Pit. Enter home attendance and fan support. Not enough fan support then UNT athletics loses more money on BB. UNT is in the unique position of scheduling some good programs to come to the Pit and play which will increase fan support. Past that we also have a good young team on paper that maybe able to schedule some away money games with a shot a pulling off a road win against a big 6 opponent. Making inroad wining against enough Big 6 opponents and then the big 6 might schedule more games once UNT isn't look upon as so weak that a loss to UNT isn't that out of the question. If this happens JJ will have actually put UNT on the national stage. Can you imagine what Butler must go through to put their OCC schedule together.

oldschoollefty · June 1, 2011

The other side to the scheduling coin is when you're 4-26 you can go on the road and play a Big 6 game for the money and a loss. Over the past 5 yrs. JJ has had to recruit to build teams that could play on the court, and then schedule teams so UNT had a shot at 20 plus wins. Then that level of competition had to get us ready to play for belt title. Then recruit better players, so when we scheduled the few average to good Big 6 conference schools to come to the pit UNT had an even to good chance to win. Getting the Big 6 games at home or away is one thing, winning the games are another. Without the wins scheduling at home or away become a mute (sp) point.

JJ has done a fantastic job scheduling over the last 5 years to get this team where it is so he can get the recruits to enhance UNT's BB reputation. Now we have the recruits coming in where we can actually have good OCC home or away conversation. Now we have to realistically account for Big 6 teams not wanting to play us at home because here's a reasonable chance that team will suffer a loss at the Pit. This puts all the teams that would like to consider themselves on par with UNT in the same boat. Come to the Pit and suffer a loss.

Now the AD is in a pinch because they have to pay a higher guarantee to get schools to come play at the Pit. Enter home attendance and fan support. Not enough fan support then UNT athletics loses more money on BB. UNT is in the unique position of scheduling some good programs to come to the Pit and play which will increase fan support. Past that we also have a good young team on paper that maybe able to schedule some away money games with a shot a pulling off a road win against a big 6 opponent. Making inroad wining against enough Big 6 opponents and then the big 6 might schedule more games once UNT isn't look upon as so weak that a loss to UNT isn't that out of the question. If this happens JJ will have actually put UNT on the national stage. Can you imagine what Butler must go through to put their OCC schedule together.

There's a simple solution to all this...

We just need to join the SEC.

NT03 · June 2, 2011

Right when 15 minutes ago I was wondering where Tasty had gone... he delivers just the info and reassurance I was looking for. That makes me feel quite a bit better about the situation. So Are we shooting for regional mid majors?

Marriage must already be getting the best of him

UNTMike81 · June 2, 2011

SEC perfect...now we just need a competitive football team and baseball program!!!

Just look where Auburn basketball is in the grand scheme of the SEC.

TheTastyGreek · June 2, 2011

Marriage must already be getting the best of him

I was on a project all last week... Days started at 1:00 in the afternoon, ended at 5:00 in the morning.

I didn't even know Knox was gone until Friday.

MeanMag · June 2, 2011

If no one will play us at home, then how did we get 1 and 1s with LSU and Tech?

Hell, do a 2 for 1 with some of these schools. The schedule needs to be improved, because, like it or not, right or wrong, you aren't going to reach the average UNT student by winning Sun Belt games. The wins against Tech and LSU last year help, and with what we have coming, now is the time to increase the competition level, even if you gotta go on the road to play them.

I absolutely love the Nov 29th game, win or lose.

I don't know how we can predict the season attendance for next year. I am anxious to see how having a legit nba lottery pick will appeal to students and fans of basketball, regardless of who we play.

drex · June 2, 2011

I think it is really sad that we have a 9,200 seat arena and are thrilled to have 5,000 show up once a year for a game. I think that geography really is a big factor in basketball attendance. We sit in the Metroplex and no one really starts to think seriously about basketball until after Christmas. It's not just us...SMU, TCU and UTA suffer from the same thing.

Army of Dad · June 2, 2011

I don't know how we can predict the season attendance for next year. I am anxious to see how having a legit nba lottery pick will appeal to students and fans of basketball, regardless of who we play.

I know there will be at least four(sometimes five if the oldest is with us) fans at every game !

Roadruner · June 3, 2011

I think it is really sad that we have a 9,200 seat arena and are thrilled to have 5,000 show up once a year for a game. I think that geography really is a big factor in basketball attendance. We sit in the Metroplex and no one really starts to think seriously about basketball until after Christmas. It's not just us...SMU, TCU and UTA suffer from the same thing.

That’s what you get when you schedule all of the weak sisters of the poor just to get a 20 win season

– if you start scheduling top 50 teams the attendance will go thorough the roof

– we have been averaging 3500 attendance for 40 years

– Lets take the program to the top – what’s the problem if you got a great coach and a great team????