Basketball Team Not Deserving Of Criticism

Glad To Be Green · March 15, 2011

I want to preface this post by acknowledging that many will take the opportunity to rip me, but I have become accustomed to it as nothing seems really good enough for some posters on the board. Regardless, I proceed.

After suffering through the same disappointment each of you faced last Tuesday night, I drove back to Denton and had time to reflect on this team and especially the nucleus of Josh White, Tristan Thompson and George Odufawa. The disappointment and remorse on their faces in the locker room made me sick to my stomach. Not because we had lost a game but because you could feel that they were shouldering all the hurt felt by so many that night. This week that nausea increased as I received e-mails of threads from the board that these kids were a disappointment, underperforming, didn't live up to expectations and now were not going to participate in post-season play. And the comments were, as is often the case, made without the knowledge of or regard for the circumstances of this team.

No excuses, but early injuries were obvious and had a direct effect on the team's fortunes. The loss of Alzee Williams forced Josh White to play almost 40 minutes in everty game. The loss of Cameron Spencer early and then Jacob Holman late (who by the way was playing better every game) forced more minutes on both George and Kedrick. And late in the season it showed as we didn't shoot well in several straight games, playing on legs that were worn out. It was a different team that played game number 25 than games 1 through 18. And then when a lot of people had given up on them, including several on this board, they dug deep as they had many times before and came within a bucket of two NCAA trips in two years. In that six game stretch they not only won but they dominated in most cases. They went to UALR to play their third game and second road game in six days and won without Josh. They vindicated losses (both on the road) to Western Kentucky and Troy in romps and eliminated the #1 seed the same way. Tristan Thompson played the tournament of a lifetime and along with George and Josh showed everyone how they game can be played. Unfortunately a team that had to practice with only eight players many times at the end of the season ran out of gas and let something very precious to them slip away. And never made an excuse or cried foul.

Along the way they won more games in a four year period than most any team in school history and continued the progress that has brought respectability to a program that had mired in a wasteland for 20 years. They made it to the dance, they beat teams from the Big 12 and SEC and made it attractive enough to lure one of the country's best recruiting classes for 2011. While frustrating at times, as every team is, they have provided more great memories that will leave "true" fans saying remember when. For the first time in my years here, more people hurt and cried when we lost than complained. Those kids and those coaches created that.

Now some want to add insult to injury by demanding that they "perform" again because THEY OWE US! Well let me assure you that it was not a money issue that kept this team from moving on. Obviously new facilities, stronger and better paid coaching staffs, budgets that allow all sports to recruit and prepare student-athletes to achieve national rankings and post-season play and all the other improvements are not signs that the athletic department is finacially committed. Just like those kids have always been unlike some of you who complain but don't buy season tickets or support the program financially and then are "owed" everything. Well I would hope that you would welcome this incoming basketball class (and all new incoming student-athletes) with the support necessary to continue moving the program upward.

I have deep gratitude for those of you who have taken up for these kids and this team. And for those who want to criticize this outgoing team I would like to paraphrase Jack Nicholson from the movie "A Few Good Men." "I would prefer that you just say THANK YOU!"

P.S. For those who condem the schedule, check the non-conference opponents of number one seeds Ohio State and Kansas that include Emporia State, Morehead State. North Carolina A&T. IUPUI, and Florida Gulf Coast among others. And we have won the majority of non-conference games played in the last two years.

TheTastyGreek · March 15, 2011

For those who condem the schedule, check the non-conference opponents of number one seeds Ohio State and Kansas that include Emporia State, Morehead State. North Carolina A&T. IUPUI, and Florida Gulf Coast among others. And we have won the majority of non-conference games played in the last two years.

Not to steal anyone's thunder here... But we've won more than a majority, and we've been doing it for more than the past 2 years.

Since the first 20 win season (2006-07):

3-4 against BCS teams not ranked in the top 20, all 4 losses coming on the road.

4-1 against CUSA, the only loss coming on the road.

8-1 against Southland schools other than UTA (10-4 overall), the only loss coming on the road. Last loss to UTA was in 2008.

7-0 against SWAC teams, also undefeated against non-D1 opponents.

9-1 against other D-1 conference (Atlantic 10, Missouri Valley, WAC, Summit, etc.), the only loss coming on the road.

So, basically... We're playing .500 ball against power conference teams that aren't the equivalent of a Top 6 BCS football team. These schools have basketball budgets an average of 4-5 times higher than the Sun Belt average, and more often than not they're paying us to show up expecting us to be a guaranteed win. Instead (other than the ones who would be ranked in the top 6 if this were football), we've been taking it to them just as well as they've been playing against us.

We're .800 against CUSA opponents and .900 against other mid-major conference schools.

We never lose against "lesser" opponents.

Also, the only coach that has won more Sun Belt conference games over the past 3 years than Johnny Jones is Ken McDonald. Ken has 33. JJ has 32. That doesn't count SBC tourney wins... Throw those in, and JJ takes the lead.

The only teams outside of the BCS conferences that have longer 20 win streaks than we do are Gonzaga, Memphis, Butler, Xavier, BYU, San Diego State, Utah State, and Akron. Say what you will about what just one 20 win season means today vs. 25 years ago... But looking at the company that 5 or more in a row puts you in shows me that a sustained streak like this means something. The next longest 20 win streak in the Sun Belt is 1 year. One team: FAU. At the end of last year, the longest 20 win streak in the Sun Belt was also 1 year. One team: Troy.

Someday, this run of success in basketball is going to end. I hope it isn't next year, or any time soon after that. I feel fortunate that this run came at a time when I was old enough to appreciate it, young enough to embrace it, and professionally flexible enough to experience as much of it in person as I've been lucky to see.

Something very special and historically rare has happened and continues to happen with this basketball program. Hopefully the next group of guys can keep this tradition growing and thriving.

foutsrouts · March 15, 2011

I want to preface this post by acknowledging that many will take the opportunity to rip me, but I have become accustomed to it as nothing seems really good enough for some posters on the board. Regardless, I proceed.

After suffering through the same disappointment each of you faced last Tuesday night, I drove back to Denton and had time to reflect on this team and especially the nucleus of Josh White, Tristan Thompson and George Odufawa. The disappointment and remorse on their faces in the locker room made me sick to my stomach. Not because we had lost a game but because you could feel that they were shouldering all the hurt felt by so many that night. This week that nausea increased as I received e-mails of threads from the board that these kids were a disappointment, underperforming, didn't live up to expectations and now were not going to participate in post-season play. And the comments were, as is often the case, made without the knowledge of or regard for the circumstances of this team.

No excuses, but early injuries were obvious and had a direct effect on the team's fortunes. The loss of Alzee Williams forced Josh White to play almost 40 minutes in everty game. The loss of Cameron Spencer early and then Jacob Holman late (who by the way was playing better every game) forced more minutes on both George and Kedrick. And late in the season it showed as we didn't shoot well in several straight games, playing on legs that were worn out. It was a different team that played game number 25 than games 1 through 18. And then when a lot of people had given up on them, including several on this board, they dug deep as they had many times before and came within a bucket of two NCAA trips in two years. In that six game stretch they not only won but they dominated in most cases. They went to UALR to play their third game and second road game in six days and won without Josh. They vindicated losses (both on the road) to Western Kentucky and Troy in romps and eliminated the #1 seed the same way. Tristan Thompson played the tournament of a lifetime and along with George and Josh showed everyone how they game can be played. Unfortunately a team that had to practice with only eight players many times at the end of the season ran out of gas and let something very precious to them slip away. And never made an excuse or cried foul.

Along the way they won more games in a four year period than most any team in school history and continued the progress that has brought respectability to a program that had mired in a wasteland for 20 years. They made it to the dance, they beat teams from the Big 12 and SEC and made it attractive enough to lure one of the country's best recruiting classes for 2011. While frustrating at times, as every team is, they have provided more great memories that will leave "true" fans saying remember when. For the first time in my years here, more people hurt and cried when we lost than complained. Those kids and those coaches created that.

Now some want to add insult to injury by demanding that they "perform" again because THEY OWE US! Well let me assure you that it was not a money issue that kept this team from moving on. Obviously new facilities, stronger and better paid coaching staffs, budgets that allow all sports to recruit and prepare student-athletes to achieve national rankings and post-season play and all the other improvements are not signs that the athletic department is finacially committed. Just like those kids have always been unlike some of you who complain but don't buy season tickets or support the program financially and then are "owed" everything. Well I would hope that you would welcome this incoming basketball class (and all new incoming student-athletes) with the support necessary to continue moving the program upward.

I have deep gratitude for those of you who have taken up for these kids and this team. And for those who want to criticize this outgoing team I would like to paraphrase Jack Nicholson from the movie "A Few Good Men." "I would prefer that you just say THANK YOU!"

P.S. For those who condem the schedule, check the non-conference opponents of number one seeds Ohio State and Kansas that include Emporia State, Morehead State. North Carolina A&T. IUPUI, and Florida Gulf Coast among others. And we have won the majority of non-conference games played in the last two years.

Nice post. I'm sure that very few here are actually criticizing the players directly, but most (including myself) are probably just experiencing a letdown from a very tough loss which undoubtedly was devastating to the players. As far as post-season play is concerned, I don't think that anyone would want them to go out and play crippled whether it be the NCAA/NIT or the CIT/CBI, but I guess you would have to be privy to the player's current physical and mental condition to really assess that situation.

I guess the lack of post-SBC Tourney information from the team, other than that we were waiting for that very unlikely NIT berth, probably added to many fan's frustration level in a big way. On a positive note, it's nice that we have fans who are actually interested enough to bitch and complain, because a few years ago even those fans were nearly non-existent. Oh well, on to a very promising 2011-2012 !

greenminer · March 15, 2011

I never really related to the who-owes-who stuff. Why can't it just be about a fan finding joy in supporting their team?

Also, it really caught me off guard to hear that there are people here emailing the AD about threads from this board. Some people mock (maybe in jest) that RV has "cronies" watching the board, but apparently they aren't needed.

Mean Green Scrappy · March 15, 2011

Someday, this run of success in basketball is going to end. I hope it isn't next year, or any time soon after that. I feel fortunate that this run came at a time when I was old enough to appreciate it, young enough to embrace it, and professionally flexible enough to experience as much of it in person as I've been lucky to see.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

BleedGreen · March 15, 2011

Very well said and a very good post.

THere's one aspect missing from this well deserved praise. That's the way these guys represented the university off the court as well. All of the seniors have been so gracious and kind to fans, both young and old. None have done anything to show up in the newspapers that would embarrass their university or coach. All have performed community service including giving free basketball clinics. THey came out after every game and signed autographs for the kids. These are great people. Our recruits have a high standard to try to achieve not just on the court but more importantly off the court as well. Thank you Seniors for giving me much Mean Green pride.

CMJ · March 15, 2011

Thank for the post RV -- as always we appreciate you taking the time to communicate with all of us little people. The season didn't go the way we all hoped it would, but that didn't mean it was a bad season! Any year where we beat Big XII & SEC teams, while extending our small streak over UTA, and advance to the SBC final -- could never be considered a BAD season.

Excellent commentary as always RV. I had a feeling we were gonna be a great post when I noticed you'd logged in last night.

Edited March 15, 2011 by CMJ

DeepGreen · March 15, 2011

Disappointed in missing out on the tournament? Yes. Unappreciative of the hard work put out by this BB team and the great season we had? No. Rick, if you received emails from a handful or two of disappointed and unappreciative fans, look on the positive side. We averaged close to or over 4,000 fans this season that truly enjoyed the great basketball season we did have. Time to re-load and keep this basketball success moving forward and upward.

KRAM1 · March 15, 2011

Thanks for the thoughts Coach V. I am really glad you wrote what a lot of us were thinking. I had more fun watching this team play in Hot Springs than I could have ever imagined. This team has represented the University of North Texas very well and I am as proud as I can be to be part of the great Mean Green Nation.

Never ceases to amaze me what some folks can find to complain about, but then, there are just some unhappy people walking around and they seem to find the glass always half-empty. That's their own personal problem. Unfortunately they tend to try to make it some other person's problem as well.

Sure, every fan of the Mean green was disappointed at how the final game played out. We all thought the championship was "in the bag", but this is college sports and college kids playing their hearts out and sometimes it just doesn't happen the way you want it to happen. Someone wins and someone loses. That's the nature of the beast we all love (college sports), but at the end of the day for this team and its seniors...well...thanks for the memories. You guys carried yourselves well both on and off the court and I will be forever grateful for all the great times I had watching you guys play. You have done it the old fashioned way...you earned it.

I am sure I speak for most of the great Mean green nation when I say...WELL DONE!

Go Mean Green!

Green P1 · March 15, 2011

I want to preface this post by acknowledging that many will take the opportunity to rip me, but I have become accustomed to it as nothing seems really good enough for some posters on the board. Regardless, I proceed.

Nah... they just know/expect/deserve more/better than everyone else.

MeanGreenTexan · March 15, 2011

Not to steal anyone's thunder here... But we've won more than a majority, and we've been doing it for more than the past 2 years.

Since the first 20 win season (2006-07):
3-4 against BCS teams not ranked in the top 20, all 4 losses coming on the road.
4-1 against CUSA, the only loss coming on the road.
8-1 against Southland schools other than UTA (10-4 overall), the only loss coming on the road. Last loss to UTA was in 2008.
7-0 against SWAC teams, also undefeated against non-D1 opponents.
9-1 against other D-1 conference (Atlantic 10, Missouri Valley, WAC, Summit, etc.), the only loss coming on the road.

So, basically... We're playing .500 ball against power conference teams that aren't the equivalent of a Top 6 BCS football team. These schools have basketball budgets an average of 4-5 times higher than the Sun Belt average, and more often than not they're paying us to show up expecting us to be a guaranteed win. Instead (other than the ones who would be ranked in the top 6 if this were football), we've been taking it to them just as well as they've been playing against us.

We're .800 against CUSA opponents and .900 against other mid-major conference schools.

We never lose against "lesser" opponents.

Also, the only coach that has won more Sun Belt conference games over the past 3 years than Johnny Jones is Ken McDonald. Ken has 33. JJ has 32. That doesn't count SBC tourney wins... Throw those in, and JJ takes the lead.

The only teams outside of the BCS conferences that have longer 20 win streaks than we do are Gonzaga, Memphis, Butler, Xavier, BYU, San Diego State, Utah State, and Akron. Say what you will about what just one 20 win season means today vs. 25 years ago... But looking at the company that 5 or more in a row puts you in shows me that a sustained streak like this means something. The next longest 20 win streak in the Sun Belt is 1 year. One team: FAU. At the end of last year, the longest 20 win streak in the Sun Belt was also 1 year. One team: Troy.

Someday, this run of success in basketball is going to end. I hope it isn't next year, or any time soon after that. I feel fortunate that this run came at a time when I was old enough to appreciate it, young enough to embrace it, and professionally flexible enough to experience as much of it in person as I've been lucky to see.

Something very special and historically rare has happened and continues to happen with this basketball program. Hopefully the next group of guys can keep this tradition growing and thriving.

:goodjob: :cry: :cry:

filmerj · March 15, 2011

Someday, this run of success in basketball is going to end. I hope it isn't next year, or any time soon after that. I feel fortunate that this run came at a time when I was old enough to appreciate it, young enough to embrace it, and professionally flexible enough to experience as much of it in person as I've been lucky to see.

Something very special and historically rare has happened and continues to happen with this basketball program. Hopefully the next group of guys can keep this tradition growing and thriving.

Yes, this. So much, yes this!

Green Lantern · March 15, 2011

I don't think anyone who watched the guys play in person all four days in Hot Springs would say that they owe anyone anything. Truly inspired basketball down the strech (as we've all become accustomed to) with enormous wins over FAU & WKU. They've given us all bragging moments and pride points over the years that far exceeded my expectations. Even with the loss in the finals against UALR, I received tons of positive comments from UNT alums and students as well as fans from other schools about the gutty performance. Very proud of the way they pulled together and performed.

Could care less about the CIT/CBI tourneys. The guys laid it all on the line in Hot Springs to try and make one last stand in the NCAA tournament to the detriment of their own bodies. That's more than enough for me.

untbowler · March 15, 2011

I think the coaches deserve criticism, this team was lost for about and 8 game stretch of the season and calling 8-8 in Sun Belt Play during a down year, with a Senior laden team an ok result is sad. Thankfully they stepped up and managed to dominate 3 opponents to get to the Finals. As for the finals the team played great, but it was coaching at the end.

Where was this sympathy for Dodge, he more major injuries than JJ? Disingenuous to come onto a forum and defend one coach but not another who had much greater injuries to deal with.

Are you going to defend the WBB team as well?

cwb · March 15, 2011

RV, I have a news flash for you. At North Texas, according to the negative minority, coaches are like artists. Their work here is no good until they are long gone.

And while it may look like a whole lot of people bitching, they ARE out numbered by those of us who can't believe how good we finally have it. It just saps too much energy to get into debates with these couch coaches.

Edited March 15, 2011 by cwb

Censored by Laurie · March 15, 2011

This is my preemptive "HOF worthy" post AND my "In before the lock" post all rolled into one. Carry on.

UNT90 · March 15, 2011

It is a fan message board. People bitch. No news there.

This board was pretty tame considering an emotional loss. Most on here thanked the players. Those that had gripes mainly addressed the coaching down the stretch in the last game, and that was done mostly from a basketball discussion point of view, with very little vitriol.

I know we aren't UT or OU, but if their basketball team had blown a 7 point lead with 1:47 to play in the conference tourney final, the emotional aftershock on those boards would have dwarfed anything ever seen here.

This is why ADs shouldn't pay too much attention to boards like these.

These seniors gave us 4 great years of basketball. We all know that and have congratulated them time and again. Please don't take a few negative comments from a few disgruntled fans and blow them out of proportion.

Edited March 15, 2011 by UNT90

KoldBeer · March 15, 2011

I'll agree that the player don't deserve any criticism. The seniors had 4 years of unmatched success and are part of what I believe is a growing mid-major program. Also, the coaching staff has done a great job since they've been here. I remember the previous staff and I'm very thankful for what we have now.

But if we want to talk about scheduling I do think we can improve here. I know scheduling is extremely difficult. And I did look at the top 4 seeds (by the way KU played Emporia St as an exhibition game). I used kenpom.com for the rankings (largely because I believe they are better than rpi and it's easy to access prior year data).

My biggest beef with the schedule is that we played Henderson St as a regular game instead of an exhibition. We only played one of the two exhibitions allowed. If we had counted that as an exhibition we could have played another regular season game. I would have used this as an opportunity to go out and either play another "money" game or go on the road to play a Valley or CUSA team. With the first type of game, we would have had more money to invest in the program. With the second, we would have had the chance to pull an upset. I'm not sure I see a great downside (one loss won't make or break season, RPI would be better, etc).

I looked at the top 4 seeds. None of the teams played more than 4 games against teams rated below 200. I also looked at the Missouri Valley Conference (I think the goal of North Texas should be to build a MVC quality team). Very few of the teams in that conference played more than 4 or 5 games against teams ranked below 200. North Texas played 9 games (non-conference only) against teams ranked below 200 (. That included two games against Div-2 schools.

In 4 of the last 5 years, we only played 4 non-conference games against teams ranked 200 and above. Only in 2009 did we have a schedule that could be called challenging (2 Top 100 and 6 ranked b/t 101-200). I'd love to get to the point that we could play a schedule closer to what Western Kentucky had (played SEC, Big 10, Big East, CUSA and only 3 below Top 200). And this has been standard operating procedure for WKU and this is the first year they haven't won 20 games in a long time.

I don't want to sound too negative about the schedule. It was a decent schedule. I LOVE the fact that a Big 12 team played in Denton. I love that we played LSU. I would just drop the bottom 2-3 games and replace them with respectable teams. We've got a good thing going and I think it would help by stepping up a little in competition so we can show how good of team we have.

Pen Yan Fan · March 15, 2011

Does anyone know if RV is still "evaulating" the women's program? He failed to mention it.

CaribbeanGreen · March 15, 2011

Just wait til the Horns get bumped in the first round.... DeLoss Dodds is gonna set Orangebloods STRAIGHT.

LoveMG · March 15, 2011

It is a fan message board. People bitch.

This board was pretty tame considering an emotional loss. Most on here thanked the players.

I know we aren't UT or OU, but if their basketball team had blown a 7 point lead with 1:47 to play in the conference tourney final, the emotional aftershock on those boards would have dwarfed anything ever seen here.

guess it is a good thing we did not accept that mountain west conference invite.

huh?, no invite yet? what the ^%$#!%$^ ?

eppy4life · March 15, 2011

Thanks for all you do RV.

Mean Green Scrappy · March 15, 2011

Who gives a negative point to someone for agreeing with another poster that they are glad they have gotten to see this team’s recent run of success in person? :growl: As a fairly new member of this board you guys are a rough crowd (I say that light heartily). I can’t wait to get my basketball season tickets for next season and watch/support the new incoming class. Hope the next 4 years are just as exciting as the past 4 years were.

eppy4life · March 15, 2011

Who gives a negative point to someone for agreeing with another poster that they are glad they have gotten to see this team's recent run of success in person?

Ignore the points to the right. They don't reflect quality thought, simply popular opinion.