Traditions, History And Accomplishments.

[FirefightnRick]

http://www.dentonrc.com/s/dws/img/drc/03-11/0304johnnyjonesteam.pdf

And what about Chris Davis,

arguably the best player in school history,

who played just two years for

Jones?

Not to distract or take away from the fine men on this JJ All Decade Team list, but in regards to Brett's quote above, I wanted to point that this is what you get when an apathetic university culture evolves to the point where an alumni/fan base allow a school's History, Traditions and Accomplishments to be dismissed or forgotten by new arrivals and outsiders.

Chris Davis was a great player and I'm honored to have been able to see him play, and it's not been enough time for the full affect of his career here to be felt. But Kenny Lyons is our all time points leader. Kenny Lyons helped the Mean Green take on, and nearly pull out a win over Top Ranked Depaul who was led by NBA All Star Mark Acquire. During his amazing career here he also scorched another NBA All Star and NBA Hall of Famer Karl Malone for 47 points in a single game against La Tech. Kenny Lyons is our greatest player of all time and there is no arguing this point and it shouldn't have to be pointed out to the local press by a poster on a message board. Kenny's accomplishments have never been honored by this school visually in the same way that others' have been by having his jersey number retired and no one seems to give a crap about it. What kind of message does this send to Josh White and George Odufuwa, or worst, to Tony Mitchell, or the men who recruited him or the men who will go to battle with him here next year?

This is why I think our culture at NT hurts this university the absolute most and it must change. To me, our culture has been devastating over the years.

Just the other night RV mistakenly stated on regional television that for the first time in our history(and during his tenure) we are now just experiencing nationally ranked teams, which isn't true at all? This isn't Coach V's fault, it's our fault.

This past year, one of our greatest basketball coaches, including the coach of Kenny Lyons, Bill Blakeley died and all he got from North Texas was a moment of silence before a home game, as far as I recall? Nothing visual like his initials on our unis was worn during the season, or an empty seat at the end of the bench to honor a coach that brought some of the most exciting basketball ever to the Super Pit. And no one hardly said a thing about it. What message does this send to the great Johnny Jones? Is this how we will honor him when he's gone? I damn sure hope not. Johnny Jones' family will have deserved more than this and so did Bill Blakeley's.

Two or three years ago Wendall Barnhouse stated and gave credit to Houston for being the first school in Texas to employee the first black Head Coach in major college football, when it was North Texas that did that. Same holds with constant referencing in the press about Jerry Levias over Abner Haynes. But this school and it's fan and alumni base doesn't respect that, therefore it's never promoted or defended, nor is the AD Dept demanded to defend it either. Again, it's not the AD's fault, it's our fault.

Our apathetic culture is why we had a woman sideline reporter during a regionally/nationally televised football game on ESPN a few years ago, REPEAT that our nickname, "Mean Green" gets it's derivation from NFL Hall of Famer "Mean" Joe Greene, which isn't true AT ALL!!!!. One of the last, or in fact, it may have been the very last time I listened to Dunham and Miller, it was back in the 90's, I hear Miller ruthlessly bag on North Texas as(I'm paraphrasing) a spare, sad whatever program because all we can sadly hang on and claim to is that "Mean" Joe Greene played here, and that we are so sad that we had to name our team after him? To hell with the fact that Joe Greene was known as "Big Joe" when he played here. But this and instances like it is allowed to continue every year, in the press and on this board.

But let me be clear, it's not the press' fault. It's our fault. We allow it. We allow our AD dept to allow it because there's only a few who actually care to speak up to AD officials and say anything to them about it. And when we do, or mention it here, regardless of what it has cost many of us in time and money to promote or defend these accomplishments and traditions ourselves, we're mocked by a few anonymous posters, at zero effort or cost to themselves, as being whiners, incapable of being happy about anything North Texas ever does.

The fact is that as a collective fan/alumni base, we regularly lay down and roll over and continue to take it and let the outside world decide what our history and traditions are.

What is the most damning price of all of this apathy towards our Traditions, History and Accomplishments? Look no further than the pitiful amount of money we have raised for our endowment over the years, or even the amount of money donated for the new stadium. For a university of this size that has, at times made it's mark and carved out many unique accomplishments through 121 years, it's beyond belief that we struggle in this area.

Every year that we allow a cap and gown to cross the stage WITHOUT any heartfelt strings of pride attached to North Texas because they never learned our Traditions, History and Accomplishments, regardless if its us the fans and alumni, RV or Dr. Finley of the Business Dept, Coach McCarney or Dr. Scott of the Music Dept, Dr. Rawlins or coach Johnny Jones and everyone in between. Every time it happens, it hurts us all, BIG TIME.

Rick

Edited March 5, 2011 by FirefightnRick

[drex]

Well said, Rick. However, the press is lazy and has to be spoon fed. This athletic administration, like so many before it, only recognize accomplishments made while on their watch. Remember, all athletic administration at NT are either vandals or interlopers with very little green blood in them. The vexing thing is that participation by the alums who know or care is thwarted by most athletic administrations--senior administration as well.

[Censored by Laurie]

FFR?

[forevereagle]

[Green P1]

http://www.dentonrc....nyjonesteam.pdf

Not to distract or take away from the fine men on this JJ All Decade Team list, but in regards to Brett's quote above, I wanted to point that this is what you get when an apathetic university culture evolves to the point where an alumni/fan base allow a school's History, Traditions and Accomplishments to be dismissed or forgotten by new arrivals and outsiders.

Chris Davis was a great player and I'm honored to have been able to see him play, and it's not been enough time for the full affect of his career here to be felt. But Kenny Lyons is our all time points leader. Kenny Lyons helped the Mean Green take on, and nearly pull out a win over Top Ranked Depaul who was led by NBA All Star Mark Acquire. During his amazing career here he also scorched another NBA All Star and NBA Hall of Famer Karl Malone for 47 points in a single game against La Tech. Kenny Lyons is our greatest player of all time and there is no arguing this point and it shouldn't have to be pointed out to the local press by a poster on a message board. Kenny's accomplishments have never been honored by this school and no one seems to give a crap about it. What kind of message does this send to Josh White and George Odufuwa, or worst, to Tony Mitchell, or the men who recruited him or the men who will go to battle with him here next year?

This is why I think our culture at NT hurts this university the absolute most and it must change. To me, our culture has been devastating over the years.

Just the other night RV mistakenly stated on regional television that for the first time in our history(and during his tenure) we are now just experiencing nationally ranked teams, which isn't true at all? This isn't Coach V's fault, it's our fault.

This past year, one of our greatest basketball coaches, including the coach of Kenny Lyons, Bill Blakeley died and all he got from North Texas was a moment of silence before a home game, as far as I recall? Nothing visual like his initials on our unis was worn during the season, or an empty seat at the end of the bench to honor a coach that brought some of the most exciting basketball ever to the Super Pit. And no one hardly said a thing about it. What message does this send to the great Johnny Jones? Is this how we will honor him when he's gone? I damn sure hope not. Johnny Jones' family will have deserved more than this and so did Bill Blakeley's.

Two or three years ago Wendall Barnhouse stated and gave credit to Houston for being the first school in Texas to employee the first black Head Coach in major college football, when it was North Texas that did that. Same holds with constant referencing in the press about Jerry Levias over Abner Haynes. But this school and it's fan and alumni base doesn't respect that, therefore it's never promoted or defended, nor is the AD Dept demanded to defend it either. Again, it's not the AD's fault, it's our fault.

Our apathetic culture is why we had a woman sideline reporter during a regionally/nationally televised football game on ESPN a few years ago, REPEAT that our nickname, "Mean Green" gets it's derivation from NFL Hall of Famer "Mean" Joe Greene, which isn't true AT ALL!!!!. One of the last, or in fact, it may have been the very last time I listened to Dunham and Miller, it was back in the 90's, I hear Miller ruthlessly bag on North Texas as(I'm paraphrasing) a spare, sad whatever program because all we can sadly hang on and claim to is that "Mean" Joe Greene played here, and that we are so sad that we had to name our team after him? To hell with the fact that Joe Greene was known as "Big Joe" when he played here. But this and instances like it is allowed to continue every year, in the press and on this board.

But let me be clear, it's not the press' fault. It's our fault. We allow it. We allow our AD dept to allow it because there's only a few who actually care to speak up to AD officials and say anything to them about it. And when we do, or mention it here, regardless of what it has cost many of us in time and money to promote or defend these accomplishments and traditions ourselves, we're mocked by a few anonymous posters, at zero effort or cost to themselves, as being whiners, incapable of being happy about anything North Texas ever does.

The fact is that as a collective fan/alumni base, we regularly lay down and roll over and continue to take it and let the outside world decide what our history and traditions are.

What is the most damning price of all of this apathy towards our Traditions, History and Accomplishments? Look no further than the pitiful amount of money we have raised for our endowment over the years, or even the amount of money donated for the new stadium. For a university of this size that has, at times made it's mark and carved out many unique accomplishments through 121 years, it's beyond belief that we struggle in this area.

Every year that we allow a cap and gown to cross the stage WITHOUT any heartfelt strings of pride attached to North Texas because they never learned our Traditions, History and Accomplishments, regardless if its us the fans and alumni, RV or Dr. Finley of the Business Dept, Coach McCarney or Dr. Scott of the Music Dept, Dr. Rawlins or coach Johnny Jones and everyone in between. Every time it happens, it hurts us all, BIG TIME.

Rick

I realize the Vito quote you referenced was merely the shoehorn you needed to justify this little rant... but does the word arguably mean nothing to you?

Posting anonymously and at no cost since 2008,

Green P1

[untjim1995]

You have a lot of good points in here. But its not just our fault, but also the surrounding area (City of Denton, Denton County) that have also helped to create the apathy. Unless the AD can get a big name here for a game, the local residents don't show up. When we try to build a new stadium to replace the decrepit piece of *&^% that we foolishly played in for decades beyond what any other school would do, we have a whole section of town (Denia) fight it out in every way imaginable. When the time comes to build a new stadium that could help both the major university in town and the high schools in said town, the city looks its largest employer in the face and says, "Too Bad--we'll do it on our own. We ain't helping you." We have to recognize that this doesn't help our cause at all.

A lot of what you write may not be fixable. I mean, really, this has gone on for 100 years in Denton. The two times that we have a winner at the FBS or I-A level didn't really increase attendance or support (Fry years and 2001-2004). It could very well be that this university is so disconnected with athletics that nothing can change it, even building a new stadium. I really believe that the only thing we haven't ever had that I believe could change some of this is to win in a league with old SWC teams. The media, fans, alums, and faculty don't feel any connection or hatred with schools in the SBC or the old Big West, and they just laughed at the thought that our university would allow itself to be in a conference with such academic juggernauts as SFA, SHSU, Southwest Texas State, and UTSA for over a decade, especially since we had tried so hard to finally get accepted into the SWC just a few years earlier.

You can say that a student, alum, local resident, or faculty member shouldn't care who we play or what league we play in, that we should only care about UNT, but that has as much chance of occurring as me going over to the local gas station and buying the winning lotto ticket. It does matter who you play, just as it has mattered to the leftovers from the SWC, of whom see attendance figures that are nothing compared to when Arky, UT, and A&M came to town. This is why when a terrible Baylor football team gets scheduled to play in Denton that we set our attendance record, even though Troy or MTSU has been a much better program for a long time. Our problem is that we are lucky we get ONE Texas team on the schedule, then we go back to podunk schools from Louisiana (sorry if you aren't LSU, few fans care about any other school over there), Airport schools from Miami, and other tiny schools from the South, which leads the collective fanbase to take a huge nap. Its my belief that until we can get in a conference with teams people care about, the apathy will continue toward our teams, history, and traditions.

[Michael Scott]

"The best way to make people respect the pass is to take a sweaty dump all over the present." - Abraham Lincoln

[GrandGreen]

Some good points FFR, I have always wondered why NT didn't empathize more their record of diversity. I would have a prominent picture of Mr. King and Mr. Haynes with a plague stating the date and historically nature of that picture. I would place this in such a location that every recruit could not miss it. The amount of publicity that SMU has gotten for Jerry Levias and the almost total lack of such for Abner Haynes as always gotten me.

As far as RV's statement it is just bluster. He is as aware as anyone of NT's past. NT was not only multiple national champion in golf but was also a track power for many years. In addition to having ranked basketball and football teams in the mid seventies.

As far as the best basketball player, I would give that to Joe Hamilton. He was a great player in the best conference in the land at the time. However, he was a juco transfer and only had two years, so on a NT career basis: I will go with Lyons. Not to discount Chris too much but there are a lot others I would rate close or equal besides Lyons and Hamilton: Leroy Winfield, Crest Whitaker, Al Shumate, Fred Mitchell, Melvin Davis, Bobby Iverson, Jessie Ratliff, etc.

[greenminer]

I think the argument should go both ways: previous generations shouldn't be hailed all-time-bests by default just because they were first.

I can't make a case about Lyons either way because I never saw him play. But I agree his credentials alone scream HOFer and it baffles me why he ain't in there... I have to read Rick's beef with this seemingly every week Having said that, unless the AD creates an outlet where fans can have a voice to be heard for HOF ballets, then we need Rick and others to keep questioning situations such as Lyons. Keep being vocal!

'All-time' debates will never go away but in the "purest sense of the argument" (for lack of a better way to say it), just don't work. Thanks to continual advancements in sports science, every 10 years or so the student athletes are noticeably - and in some areas, significantly - bigger, faster and more productive than their predecessors. I read sometime ago that the OL for the 2005 Euless state championship football team outweighed the Hogs from the Washington Redskins of the 1980s!

So what do we do about how we honor past Mean Green greats? Do we establish a "routine": a default ceremony for all student-athletes or coaches that pass away? Or do we ask the family what they think should be done? If they are okay with a moment of silence, who are we to get all riled up?

[GrayEagle]

I agree with virtually everything that Rick said, especially about Kenneth Lyons. Kenneth has been in the North Texas HOF since 1993 so he hasn't been ignored but, in truth, none of our HOF members have been really placed on a pedestal but Joe Greene. Well deserved for Joe because he is arguably the best defensive lineman in the history of the game.

Our failure to continue traditions is largely the fault of prior administrations. Envolvement beyond the school years wasn't encouraged; in fact, it was discouraged. Nearly all of the gifts to the AD prior to Hayden Fry was in the form of advertising, goods or services. So, while we had some rudiments of a program of giving, that pretty much went south when we were forced to drop to 1-AA in 1982. Those 12 years ran off many who had supported North Texas after graduation.

I suppose that we could be blamed for not having the alumni leadership to strongly encourage an alumni-giving program but the wind had been taken out of those sails by prior administrations. Denton had few wealthy residents and Hayden had tapped the two most noteworthy, Newton Rayzor and Rex Cauble, so that the list of affluent donors was depleted.

Another major factor working against us was the city of Denton. They enjoyed the benefits of being a college town but contributed little. Their excuse seemed to be that North Texas added nothing to their tax base and required additional police and fire protection. Little did they realize that the UNT administration, faculty and auxillary personnel were large contributors to their property tax base. I question why our administration did little to establish any rapport with the city.

The University of North Texas community needs to reach out to Denton and Denton County and get them involved. That is why I'm encouraged about having Coach Mac and his staff. It's almost as if we are getting the citizens involved for the first time. Past history can't be changed but our future course can. Traditions and recognition can be restored but it can't rest on the shoulders of a few.

[UNTLifer]

So, FFR, what got you fired up to write this diatribe was a excerpt from Vito's story claiming Chris Davis and not Kenneth Lyons was tje greatest player in NT's history? Seems to me that is one man's opinion over the other's opinion. Heck, a poster later in the thread thinks Joe Hamilton was the greatest. It is an opinion, nothing more.

Lyons is in the Hall of Fame and has been for almost twenty years. What do you want them to do? Retire his jersey? Seems to me there could be a number of players that would need to have their jerseys retired, so what are the prerequisites for this? Scoring record? Professional success?

Mean Joe is an NFL Hallof Famer and one of the greatest to ever play the game anywhere. The other players in football with retired numbers seem to have achieved some level of success professionally.

Wendell Barnhouse, how many people actually read this article or were aware? I'd never heard of it until now and I do a preety good job of keeping up with the DFW media. Did you point this out to our SID or Mr. Barnhouse?

I realize NT could do more to honor its former players, coaches, etc... From time to time, but are they really that bad or are they just not doing what you think they should?

[NorthTexan95]

There's a lot of this that is directly outside anyone's control but there's a lot that can be done. I love the idea of a plaque to honor Abner Haynes' accomplishments. Perhaps we need to be like other schools and have our conference championships posted boldly inside the stadium (all of them, not just the four from last decade). UNT football has a proud history of success and that should be promoted. This has to come start with the administration.

I've always felt that UNT fans seem to always be negative about sports and ignore all the great things that have happened. A lot of that comes from ignorance. Promoting the history of our athletic teams is a big part of changing the culture.

Edited March 5, 2011 by NorthTexan95

[DallasGreen]

There's a lot of this that is directly outside anyone's control but there's a lot that can be done. I love the idea of a plaque to honor Abner Haynes' accomplishments. Perhaps we need to be like other schools and have our conference championships posted boldly inside the stadium (all of them, not just the four from last decade). UNT football has a proud history of success and that should be promoted. This has to come start with the administration.

I've always felt that UNT fans seem to always be negative about sports and ignore all the great things that have happened. A lot of that comes from ignorance. Promoting the history of our athletic teams is a big part of changing the culture.

We do have a history before this regime and all before it. If you are a true fan of the Mean Green, athletic directors and head coaches will come and go but you are the constant that will still be here. I can go even further back to the MVC and seeing John Savage matched against Oscar Robertson in the old pit. North Texas Basketball in the MVC made the SWC a joke. We beat A$M by 20 points at home when I was a student. The local privates wanted no part of the NT FB teams of the mid to late 60's . The University of Arkansas stole a game in Fayetteville from the Mean Green in 1967 on a called trap of a Steve Ramsey to Ron Shanklin pass. Later Chuck Dicus, the DB for Arkansas admitted it was a clean catch and the refs were protecting the SWC from what would be viewed by the "great unwashed" as a terrific upset. In those teams of the 60's not only Joe Greene, but Cedric Hardeman, Willie Parker, Steve Ramsey, Ron Shanklin, Chuck Beatty, and others would distinguish themselves for years in the NFL, many more than the local privates sent at that time. Even Dandy Don Meredith admitted on MNF that "he was sure glad when he was at SMU that they never had to play North Texas State". This statement was made while he viewed Joe Greene, Ron Shanklin, and Chuck Beatty all playing in the starting line up of the Pittsburg Steelers. We have always had an inferiority complex at NT. This must change now. Denton must change now---all its previous excuses for non-support are lame. Growth is coming up I-35 E and W at a staggering pace and Denton is drawn into the metroplex like it or not. Get with the program "little d" you have had a gold mine of a university in your back yard for decades--Act like you appreciate now and ongoing.

[LoveMG]

Lyons is in the Hall of Fame and has been for almost twenty years. What do you want them to do? Retire his jersey?

yes. there are two womens numbers retired but none for the mens program. gender equity!

[FirefightnRick]

Kenneth has been in the North Texas HOF since 1993 so he hasn't been ignored but, in truth, none of our HOF members have been really placed on a pedestal but Joe Greene.

Yes, this is what I meant to say in way of mentioning that his jersey has never been retired like has been done with others at NT, and I have corrected it in my original post. Thank you to GE, Lifer and LMG for reminding me of this oversight. And thank you to those who seem to understand the overall message I was trying to portray. It wasn't just one thing like Vito's quote that was simply on my mind, but several factors we have dealt with over the years that got me to thinking and how it has affected our program in way of donations and support.

Rick

Edited March 5, 2011 by FirefightnRick

[FirefightnRick]

There's a lot of this that is directly outside anyone's control but there's a lot that can be done. I love the idea of a plaque to honor Abner Haynes' accomplishments. Perhaps we need to be like other schools and have our conference championships posted boldly inside the stadium (all of them, not just the four from last decade). UNT football has a proud history of success and that should be promoted. This has to come start with the administration.

I've always felt that UNT fans seem to always be negative about sports and ignore all the great things that have happened. A lot of that comes from ignorance. Promoting the history of our athletic teams is a big part of changing the culture.

Great post!

You know, reading this reminds me of talking with Abner Haynes when he was being honored by the Star Telegram at the Fort Worth Stock Show by having him vote in person for the Great Moments in North Texas Sports History event last year. And also spending several hours visiting with the great Sears Woods at the tailgating event at Oklahoma 7 or 8 years ago in Norman. When I see these guys, even though I wasn't even born when Haynes played, or had never traveled to Denton when Woods played, when I see and talk with these men I look at them as if they(athletically) walked on water or something? I mean, I don't know, but I've heard so much from those who were there who saw them play in person and read so much about them and heard the stories from them personally that when I see them I'm in awe. And I teach my kids about them and who they are and what they accomplished at North Texas against such great odds and they now know to respect them because of it too, as they should, as we all should.

So even though I wasn't there when they played I'd never in a million years ever think about dismissing any of their accomplishments in any way form or fashion and I have never understood the logic how anyone else could either?

Rick

[UNT 90 Grad]

There's a lot of this that is directly outside anyone's control but there's a lot that can be done. I love the idea of a plaque to honor Abner Haynes' accomplishments. Perhaps we need to be like other schools and have our conference championships posted boldly inside the stadium (all of them, not just the four from last decade). UNT football has a proud history of success and that should be promoted. This has to come start with the administration.

Do you think people would notice if we did?

I'll assume you normally sit on the alumni side and never turn around.

[NorthTexan95]

Do you think people would notice if we did?

I'll assume you normally sit on the alumni side and never turn around.

Now that I re-read what I typed it does sound stupid. I meant to say we should do it in the new stadium. I think I was trying to combine three different thoughts into that one sentence.

[UNT 90 Grad]

Now that I re-read what I typed it does sound stupid. I meant to say we should do it in the new stadium. I think I was trying to combine three different thoughts into that one sentence.

Ahhh. In that case I definitely agree with you.

[UNTLifer]

It will take the fans to pressure the media to give NT its due. Heck, I made it a habit of emailing the Texas Sports Hall of Fame selection committee every year lobbying for Mr. Haynes. I started this in 2001 when I became aware of his absence. I also emailed the media when they were falling all over SMU for breaking the color barrier with Jerry Levias. I emailed the story from the North Texan about what Mr. Haynes and Leon King went through their first few years on the team. I know a lot of other alums did the same.

When we start winning consistently, the media will take notice and then we can educate them on all they've been missing.

[SilverEagle]

Here is what has bothered me for a long time. For a school that has been around for 121 years, and playing football since 1914, we have fewer traditions, and less consistent spirit than just about ANY college (or HS for that matter) in Texas.

People say that attendance, spirit, and traditions will improve when we start winning again. Really? We went to four bowl games in a row and where was the significant spike in all those areas? Why didn't we seize the opportunity during this bowl run to improve traditions....including our spirit traditions? What makes anyone think that a new stadium will change all that?

And since I mentioned the new (and long needed) stadium, let me give you my perspective on that. We do need this stadium very badly, but it will only do so much for our basic issues. Several years ago, I had a philosophical discussion about education with a co-worker. She was looking forward to newer schools and school facilities being built in the area where she lived. She anticipated that this would translate into better performance by the kids in her school district. I told her that it was my belief that you could build the most cutting edge educational facility in the world but the facilities do not make parents care about their children's education. THAT is what makes better students, not facilities. As far as I'm concerned, the same principle applies to North Texas students and alums. THE STADIUM WILL NOT MAKE US CARE ABOUT OUR SCHOOL....TRADITIONS (CONSISTENTLY ADHERED TO) WILL.

I couldn't believe it when FFR mentioned that our University had a spirit committee that's been around since at least 2007. AND WE STILL DON'T HAVE A NORTH TEXAS YELL/CHANT? Isn't that kind of a basic thing that MOST Universities take for granted?

So PLEASE, don't say that winning will cure everything. It hasn't in the past, and there's no reason to think it will now.

[greenminer]

To counter point, Silver, we didn't win consistently for 4 years, we won Belt games for 4 years and won a few OOC games over the course of 2 seasons. Lest anyone forget, we even went into the first NO Bowl with a losing record. The bowl was fun and all, but reading over and over about our record on a national level/scene was hard to swallow. For extra emphasis: we entered the conference portion of our schedule during every NO Bowl year (2001 - 2004) with a losing record. That's hardly a recipe for getting traditions (and excitement in general) going.

I imagine traditions will take commitments from both administration and fans, coupled with sustained success...10 years? Just guessing.

[SilverEagle]

To counter point, Silver, we didn't win consistently for 4 years, we won Belt games for 4 years and won a few OOC games over the course of 2 seasons. Lest anyone forget, we even went into the first NO Bowl with a losing record. The bowl was fun and all, but reading over and over about our record on a national level/scene was hard to swallow. For extra emphasis: we entered the conference portion of our schedule during every NO Bowl year (2001 - 2004) with a losing record. That's hardly a recipe for getting traditions (and excitement in general) going.

I imagine traditions will take commitments from both administration and fans, coupled with sustained success...10 years? Just guessing.

You're absolutely right about our REAL record during those bowl runs. But everyone keeps talking about the four straight bowl trips as if it were a bigger deal than it really was.

But my point about traditions/spirit still stands. What better time to improve the old ones and start new ones than when the team is going to bowl games.

Regardless, traditions and/or school spirit is greatly improved by winning. But traditions/school spirit should be what people fall back on, and hang on to, when the team is not winning. This school is totally bass-ackwards on that issue.

[UNT 90 Grad]

Traditions are fun and all, until someone loses an eye. Bring back the tortilla.

[UNT90]

You're absolutely right about our REAL record during those bowl runs. But everyone keeps talking about the four straight bowl trips as if it were a bigger deal than it really was.

But my point about traditions/spirit still stands. What better time to improve the old ones and start new ones than when the team is going to bowl games.

Regardless, traditions and/or school spirit is greatly improved by winning. But traditions/school spirit should be what people fall back on, and hang on to, when the team is not winning. This school is totally bass-ackwards on that issue.

I agree with your points on spirit, but just because we are playing sports a long time doesn't mean there was a committment by the school administration to make the athletic programs the best that they could be. That is a fairly recent development that is just now starting to pay off.

Edited March 7, 2011 by UNT90