Speed Traps - Beware As The Weather Warms Up

gangrene · February 16, 2011

I had no idea posting a friendly reminder to slow down would result in such emotion, bickering and political talk. Contrary to the opinions some of you may have formed about me, I'm not a cop-hating, habitual speeder. Prior to December, I hadn't been cited for a moving violation in 10 years and I haven't had an accident (knock on wood) in almost 20.

When turning onto I-35 from Beltline I saw that Carrollton Cop sitting exactly where you said you saw him...I was doing over 40 (thought the speed was 45...like you), but turns out it is 35mph. Lucky for me he was preoccupied with someone else.

Those limits in those areas seem much too slow to me and seem to be there for one reason...pick up a few tickets and help fund the City of Carrollton. BUT, I am in 100% agreement with those who said...easy fix...just don't speed. One is, in fact, in 100% control of whether they will get a speeding ticket or not. I have "reformed" a bit...A bit!

Thank you Kram, that was one point I was trying to make, but evidently failed to do so. That section of the I-35 service road is the only area I've encountered where the access road to an interstate has a speed limit of 35. The I-35 speed limit there is 60 MPH and the entrance/exit ramps are so short you have to punch it to enter or slam on the brakes to exit in order to merge with the traffic. The speed limit on most SRs is 45. I call this area a speed trap because most drivers believe the speed limit is 45 and, with very few 35 MPH signs posted along this area, people who don't often take this route are easy prey.

Ticket quotas are expressly illegal. A peace officer may not be evaluated on a number or type of traffic citations, nor can they be required to issue a number or type of traffic citations within a certain period. Violating that is grounds for a removal of office or dismissal from their job. Having worked for local governments for years, I can tell you that we are far too busy to be concerned with the cloak and dagger - that stuff sounds great in papers, but it is usually nothing more than a sales driver. Personally, I find people in general much too tired, stupid, or busy to perpetrate grand schemes of conspiracy.

While there are certainly police chiefs (especially in smaller backwoods Texas towns) who may violate that regularly and get away with it, let me assure you that chiefs in the larger cities (particularly here in D/FW) are held to a much higher standard. Officers in the Metrocrest area (Carrollton, Addison, Farmers Branch, and Coppell) are particularly concerned with image and how they are viewed. Councils at three of the four cities have expressed concern within the last three years that an image of a "speed trap city" is something they'd rather avoid. Speed traps decrease speeding over time, but they also reduce traffic. Lower traffic counts kill business, and their tax payments are of far more gravity to area local governments than traffic fines.

Citations issued by motorcycle officers, as with the ones you observed, are usually just enough to cover the cost of hiring them. So, in the case you mentioned, it is more a a zero-sum game in terms of revenue. The main thrust of having these officers out, as another poster expressed, is to reduce speed based on the reservations of either the council, the community, or both.

If you would agree that those who use services ought to be liable for paying for them, then I'm sure you'd also find the McKinney accident fee to be good policy. Otherwise, the cost of paying for emergency and accident-related services are borne by the those who live in the city on behalf of those who do not. In other words, if I am a McKinney citizen, my property tax and any sales tax I generate from shopping locally go towards paying the salary and program costs of accident-related services; I have in essence "paid my dues." If I live in Arlington, but get in an accident in McKinney, then I am getting the same service without paying for it. That is all the fee is intended to be - making sure those who use a service actually pay for it.

Thanks for the insight and the informative post. The Carrollton PD doesn't exactly have a good record in the public perception arena over the last 12 months.

Carrollton police employees fired for egg incident

Officer's appeal exposes problems on Carrollton police force

A Carrollton police officer was allegedly driving drunk with his two young children when he had an accident, according to the report issued last month by hearing examiner Milden J. Fox Jr. Another officer resigned with no department action after he allegedly pointed a gun at a resident involved in a road rage incident, according to the report.

Carrollton police officer fired over excessive-force case

Car dealer alleges Carrollton police roughed him up; incident reports differ

Also, it looks like the McKinney proposal is going to get voted down by the city council, but the revenue-generating rationale was clearly stated in the article I posted:

Kowalski said he's recommending the nonresident accident response fee as a way to generate revenue in a tight budget, and that's been the rationale in other cash-strapped cities.

---I guess you are implying in cold weather they don't want to get out of their car to give a ticket ... unlike in warm weather when they will.

Nope, that comment was made in direct reference to motorcycle cops, er officers...so I don't ruffle feathers more than I already have. I almost never see motorcycle police in rainy or cold weather but they are abundantly present on pleasant spring days.

---Sometimes speed limits/traffic signs make zero sense and some are a total surprise. 3-4 years ago they changed an intersection near my house into a four way stop.. Two days later a cop was sitting there writing tickets left and right.... Probably most cars had driven through it for years with no stop sign on their side... Seemed like a bit of a cheap shot to me. One street had about zero traffic from one side (only one house on it before it went to a dead end).

Or how about this guy who was ticketed by Texas DPS for doing 70 on George Bush where this sign was posted?

Street Squad: Strange PGBT Signs

UNT90 · February 16, 2011

Ticket quotas are expressly illegal. A peace officer may not be evaluated on a number or type of traffic citations, nor can they be required to issue a number or type of traffic citations within a certain period. Violating that is grounds for a removal of office or dismissal from their job. Having worked for local governments for years, I can tell you that we are far too busy to be concerned with the cloak and dagger - that stuff sounds great in papers, but it is usually nothing more than a sales driver. Personally, I find people in general much too tired, stupid, or busy to perpetrate grand schemes of conspiracy.

While there are certainly police chiefs (especially in smaller backwoods Texas towns) who may violate that regularly and get away with it, let me assure you that chiefs in the larger cities (particularly here in D/FW) are held to a much higher standard. Officers in the Metrocrest area (Carrollton, Addison, Farmers Branch, and Coppell) are particularly concerned with image and how they are viewed. Councils at three of the four cities have expressed concern within the last three years that an image of a "speed trap city" is something they'd rather avoid. Speed traps decrease speeding over time, but they also reduce traffic. Lower traffic counts kill business, and their tax payments are of far more gravity to area local governments than traffic fines.

Citations issued by motorcycle officers, as with the ones you observed, are usually just enough to cover the cost of hiring them. So, in the case you mentioned, it is more a a zero-sum game in terms of revenue. The main thrust of having these officers out, as another poster expressed, is to reduce speed based on the reservations of either the council, the community, or both.

If you would agree that those who use services ought to be liable for paying for them, then I'm sure you'd also find the McKinney accident fee to be good policy. Otherwise, the cost of paying for emergency and accident-related services are borne by the those who live in the city on behalf of those who do not. In other words, if I am a McKinney citizen, my property tax and any sales tax I generate from shopping locally go towards paying the salary and program costs of accident-related services; I have in essence "paid my dues." If I live in Arlington, but get in an accident in McKinney, then I am getting the same service without paying for it. That is all the fee is intended to be - making sure those who use a service actually pay for it.

Complete Bulsh here. This is just a way for a municipality to impose another tax on citizens of other communities. Nevermind that you might work in that community and pay sales taxes on numerous items that you purchase in the community. This is nothing more than a sorry attempt by a city government to make first responders the bad guy while they hide inside city hall. Taxes are already paid for police to do their job. What's next, a tax for a police response to an armed robbery if you aren't a resident of the community? How about a vehicle burglary tax for non-residents? Hey, come eat at our restaurants, but if our high crime rate strikes you, well, that's your problem, and here is another tax on top of losing your property (or in the case of an accident, having to repair yur vehicle). This is just complete crap, and a good way to keep me from spending any of my money in the City of McKinney (like I ever get up there anyway).

If you really believe departments like Fort Worth, Dallas, and Arlington do not put pressure EVERY DAY on their patrol officers to write tickets, you are sorely misinformed. They do, and it is completely about revenue (We are not talking about motorcycle cops, whose only job is to write tickets. Obviously, if they aren't writing tickets, they aren't doing their job). It has just become accepted by the rank and file.

Edited February 16, 2011 by UNT90

NT03 · February 16, 2011

Cop was all like "pullover!" and I was all like " No , it's a cardigan , but thanks for noticing... Killer boots man!"

LongJim · February 16, 2011

If you really believe departments like Fort Worth, Dallas, and Arlington do not put pressure EVERY DAY on their patrol officers to write tickets, you are sorely misinformed.

You are sorely misinformed. They do not put pressure on their officers to write tickets. They may have pressure to make "contact" with the public, but whether the officer writes tickets or not is at his discretion. I know for a first hand FACT that FW, Lewisville, Highland Village, Sansom Park, River Oaks, Westworth Village--and the DPS do NOT do this. The DPS in particular DOES have a policy for making contact with the public--and so do some PD's--in order to ensure they are doing their job. They are NOT required to write tickets. Ask any police officer if he has a ticket "quota" and he will either laugh in your face, or roll his eyes.

Gangrene: This whole thread got my hackles up because by its nature it insinuates that a lot of good people are basically unethical. I take exception to that, and don't like to see it go unaddressed. If people don't like cops--fine. Say so, move along, and go on with your bad self. I can accept that. If someone wants to insinuate that people putting themselves in harm's way to make the highways a little safer are somehow committing some sort of graft, I'm going to try to set the facts straight, that's all. That's the load of "bulsh" in this whole deal.

forevereagle · February 16, 2011

Someone put an APB out on Emmitt and get him in here. I am curious to hear what he has to say.

Also, speaking of that, where are our funny stories on being a police officer?

Edited February 16, 2011 by forevereagle

GreenMachine · February 16, 2011

Ask any police officer if he has a ticket "quota" and he will either laugh in your face, or roll his eyes.

I work in the mortgage industry and we are "encouraged" to do things that maybe we shouldn't. However, if you were to ask me about any of these type situations, I would laugh in your face, or roll my eyes.

LongJim · February 16, 2011

I work in the mortgage industry and we are "encouraged" to do things that maybe we shouldn't. However, if you were to ask me about any of these type situations, I would laugh in your face, or roll my eyes.

That's fine. The difference is the police aren't "encouraged" to write tickets. What I'm saying is that there is no "quota". If an officer tells you this, it is the truth. His boss may wonder why he's only written 4 tickets compared to his buddy's 25 during the day, and may view this as poor performance, but the officer can just as easily write a warning, which is what I was trying to point out in earlier posts. As long as he's showing he's contacting the public, he's doing his job.

He is not obligated or "pressured to write tickets", (although he *should* be writing his share) and police do not set up "speed traps" to "raise revenue". They do it to slow people down at dangerous places where there is rampant speeding or there has been public pressure to enforce the speed limit more closely at that location.

That's it. It's not some conspiracy. I'll bow out now. :thumbsu:

Coffee and TV · February 16, 2011

BTW, On I-10 west of Odessa the speed limit is 80. Helllll yeah.

MeanGreen61 · February 16, 2011

That's fine. The difference is the police aren't "encouraged" to write tickets. What I'm saying is that there is no "quota". If an officer tells you this, it is the truth. His boss may wonder why he's only written 4 tickets compared to his buddy's 25 during the day, and may view this as poor performance, but the officer can just as easily write a warning, which is what I was trying to point out in earlier posts. As long as he's showing he's contacting the public, he's doing his job.

He is not obligated or "pressured to write tickets", (although he *should* be writing his share) and police do not set up "speed traps" to "raise revenue". They do it to slow people down at dangerous places where there is rampant speeding or there has been public pressure to enforce the speed limit more closely at that location.

That's it. It's not some conspiracy. I'll bow out now.

Some folks will always bitch and moan about the police.....until the need one.

UNT90 · February 17, 2011

You are sorely misinformed. They do not put pressure on their officers to write tickets. They may have pressure to make "contact" with the public, but whether the officer writes tickets or not is at his discretion. I know for a first hand FACT that FW, Lewisville, Highland Village, Sansom Park, River Oaks, Westworth Village--and the DPS do NOT do this. The DPS in particular DOES have a policy for making contact with the public--and so do some PD's--in order to ensure they are doing their job. They are NOT required to write tickets. Ask any police officer if he has a ticket "quota" and he will either laugh in your face, or roll his eyes.

Gangrene: This whole thread got my hackles up because by its nature it insinuates that a lot of good people are basically unethical. I take exception to that, and don't like to see it go unaddressed. If people don't like cops--fine. Say so, move along, and go on with your bad self. I can accept that. If someone wants to insinuate that people putting themselves in harm's way to make the highways a little safer are somehow committing some sort of graft, I'm going to try to set the facts straight, that's all. That's the load of "bulsh" in this whole deal.

They absolutely do. Some even have large boards showing each officers production in the briefing rooms for all officers to see. I've seen boards that count a traffic ticket the same as a self initiated felony arrest. I've known guys who lead their shift in felony arrests, and still get called in and counseled on their lack of citations (which is completely legal as long as you don't put a number on it.) At some places, you can answer more calls than anyone on your shift for the month, yet still get a bad performance review for a lack of self initiated activity in traffic enforcement.

You apparently don't get (or didn't read) what I am saying. The vast majority of officers out there use traffic enforcement as a means to an end (find a violation on a car leaving a dope house, etc...) and could give a rats ass about writing productive members of society a ticket. There is no problem with the officers. Their administrations absolutely put pressure on these officers to write tickets. If you don't believe me, talk to your beat officer. Ask him if he is pressured.

MeanGreen61 · February 17, 2011

They absolutely do. Some even have large boards showing each officers production in the briefing rooms for all officers to see. I've seen boards that count a traffic ticket the same as a self initiated felony arrest. I've known guys who lead their shift in felony arrests, and still get called in and counseled on their lack of citations (which is completely legal as long as you don't put a number on it.) At some places, you can answer more calls than anyone on your shift for the month, yet still get a bad performance review for a lack of self initiated activity in traffic enforcement.

You apparently don't get (or didn't read) what I am saying. The vast majority of officers out there use traffic enforcement as a means to an end (find a violation on a car leaving a dope house, etc...) and could give a rats ass about writing productive members of society a ticket. There is no problem with the officers. Their administrations absolutely put pressure on these officers to write tickets. If you don't believe me, talk to your beat officer. Ask him if he is pressured.

Pardon me, but this doesn't compute.

Rudy · February 17, 2011

McKinney is even considering charging an "accident fee" of up to $215 for non-residents that have accidents in their city limits. McKinney considers accident fee for nonresidents Several members of McKinney's city council have said they are opposed to the proposal since that article was written.

Be careful driving out there. That money spent on a ticket would be much better served by investing in the Mean Green Club.

Then take that as a warning if it passes. If you have an accident in McKinney, or any city that has such a policy, Which I don't agree with, then don't call the police. Exchange your info and move on.

Usually, (and I'm not speaking for Mayberry-type municipalities where Sheriff BJ McGillicuddy is the law) these types of "traps" are set up for a couple of reasons:

Most of the "Mayberry" cities you speak of rarely have more than one officer on duty, thus speed traps are never seen. It is up to the lone officer on duty to run radar, look for probably cause stops, patrol, and answering calls for service. I have two favorite spots which are in plain view, and you would be shocked how many people speed right past me.

I was in the military and don't recall anybody (I'm sure there were some individuals) grossly overweight and out of shape. It's sad to see so many heavy set police officers today, guess they better be a good aim with a tazer because they aren't running anybody down on foot.

As an officer who is battling weight issues, I am sorry that you have such a narrow minded view that overwight cops are not effective at fighting crime. Im not going to jinx myself and say that Ive never been in a chase or a fight, but I will say that if you try to run on me or fight me, you will get dropped hard.

Cop was all like "pullover!" and I was all like " No , it's a cardigan , but thanks for noticing... Killer boots man!"

OK, if you used that one on me, its probably going to just be a warning. :lol:

OK, Now I have my popcorn and Im ready to watch the thread.

UNT90 · February 17, 2011

Pardon me, but this doesn't compute.

No doubt. Unfortunately, it doesn't make it any less true.

LongJim · February 17, 2011

They absolutely do. Some even have large boards showing each officers production in the briefing rooms for all officers to see. I've seen boards that count a traffic ticket the same as a self initiated felony arrest. I've known guys who lead their shift in felony arrests, and still get called in and counseled on their lack of citations (which is completely legal as long as you don't put a number on it.) At some places, you can answer more calls than anyone on your shift for the month, yet still get a bad performance review for a lack of self initiated activity in traffic enforcement.

I don't disagree with anything you just wrote, other than they are pressured to write tickets. I said in two of my posts that PD's monitor "public contact". You can say they are "pressured" to contact the public--which is their job. They are not pressured to write tickets as a rule. I will admit maybe you've seen some PD that does this, because I haven't been in every PD in Texas. It is not the norm. There are some who do what they want when they want, just as any other profession.

Every contact with the public--warning, whatever--counts the same. They are written up much the same way. Perhaps you've seen a department where there is pressure to write tickets. I have never seen this, and I listed departments I have been in personally, and departments where I personally know cops. I said they do not have quotas. They do not, as you mention above. *Some* departments use contact with the public as a measurement for performance--which is what the THP does, and was ruled legal by the Supreme Court. Citations are part of contact with the public. Not all of it. Traffic stops are important in law enforcement, as you mention and can lead to discovery of other crimes. There's no disputing this, and it's police 101.

It is also a straw man argument. This thread is about "speed traps, quotas, and generating revenue." Cops do not set up speed traps to generate revenue or to fill a quota. They use them to slow speeding down.

If you don't believe me, talk to your beat officer. Ask him if he is pressured.

This is kind of funny, 90. I talk to 2 almost every day. I mentioned this thread to them. They are weary of this topic. :lol:

MeanGreenTexan · February 17, 2011

I blame Bush.

I blame Adams. Both of them.

MeanGreen61 · February 17, 2011

They absolutely do. Some even have large boards showing each officers production in the briefing rooms for all officers to see. I've seen boards that count a traffic ticket the same as a self initiated felony arrest. I've known guys who lead their shift in felony arrests, and still get called in and counseled on their lack of citations (which is completely legal as long as you don't put a number on it.) At some places, you can answer more calls than anyone on your shift for the month, yet still get a bad performance review for a lack of self initiated activity in traffic enforcement.

You apparently don't get (or didn't read) what I am saying. The vast majority of officers out there use traffic enforcement as a means to an end (find a violation on a car leaving a dope house, etc...) and could give a rats ass about writing productive members of society a ticket. There is no problem with the officers. Their administrations absolutely put pressure on these officers to write tickets. If you don't believe me, talk to your beat officer. Ask him if he is pressured.

You are absolutely sure and say some depaertments count a traffic ticket and self initiated felony arrest as equal. NAME TWO DEPARTMENTS THAT YOU KNOW HAVE THIS POLICY PLEASE.

Edited February 17, 2011 by MeanGreen61

UNT90 · February 17, 2011

You are absolutely sure and say some depaertments count a traffic ticket and self initiated felony arrest as equal. NAME TWO DEPARTMENTS THAT YOU KNOW HAVE THIS POLICY PLEASE.

That's not ever going to happen on a public forum.

MeanGreen61 · February 17, 2011

That's not ever going to happen on a public forum.

You made the allegations on a public forum so why the reluctance to back up your claims ? You are posting using a "handle".

UNT90 · February 17, 2011

I don't disagree with anything you just wrote, other than they are pressured to write tickets. I said in two of my posts that PD's monitor "public contact". You can say they are "pressured" to contact the public--which is their job. They are not pressured to write tickets as a rule. I will admit maybe you've seen some PD that does this, because I haven't been in every PD in Texas. It is not the norm. There are some who do what they want when they want, just as any other profession.

Every contact with the public--warning, whatever--counts the same. They are written up much the same way. Perhaps you've seen a department where there is pressure to write tickets. I have never seen this, and I listed departments I have been in personally, and departments where I personally know cops. I said they do not have quotas. They do not, as you mention above. *Some* departments use contact with the public as a measurement for performance--which is what the THP does, and was ruled legal by the Supreme Court. Citations are part of contact with the public. Not all of it. Traffic stops are important in law enforcement, as you mention and can lead to discovery of other crimes. There's no disputing this, and it's police 101.

It is also a straw man argument. This thread is about "speed traps, quotas, and generating revenue." Cops do not set up speed traps to generate revenue or to fill a quota. They use them to slow speeding down.

This is kind of funny, 90. I talk to 2 almost every day. I mentioned this thread to them. They are weary of this topic.

No doubt about it. But, in a previous post, you defended the policy of taxing a non-resident who is involved in a teraffic accident while implying that Cities never put pressure on their officers to write tickets. Isn't it apparent that they are attempting to use a seperate police function (working accidents) to raise revenue, yet you think there is no way they would try to use police, in other ways, to raise revenue? Administrations are smart enough to apply pressure in an indirect way and not violate the law against quotas. Make no mistake, the pressure is still there.

It is not just about public contact. In a perfect world where everyone did what they were suppose to do, it would be. Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world.

I'm sure the officers are weary of this topic. That doesn't surprise me one bit

forevereagle · February 17, 2011

That's not ever going to happen on a public forum.

UNT90 · February 17, 2011

You made the allegations on a public forum so why the reluctance to back up your claims ? You are posting using a "handle".

I'll be at the game Saturday and in the MGC room before if you want to discuss this further. KRAM and Emmitt know who I am, just have them point me out. I'd be more than happy to talk in person about this subject.

LongJim · February 17, 2011

No doubt about it. But, in a previous post, you defended the policy of taxing a non-resident who is involved in a teraffic accident while implying that Cities never put pressure on their officers to write tickets.

Which post was that? I did not defend that policy.

Edited February 17, 2011 by LongJim

UNT90 · February 17, 2011

Which post was that? I did not defend that policy.

My apologies. That would have been another poster.

Still, the point remains. If a city government is willing to openly tax people involved in accidents, do you not think that they would put pressure on the officers to generate more revenue in bad economic times (or good, for that matter)?

MeanGreen61 · February 17, 2011

I'll be at the game Saturday and in the MGC room before if you want to discuss this further. KRAM and Emmitt know who I am, just have them point me out. I'd be more than happy to talk in person about this subject.

Well, guess I won't have the pleasure since I live over 400 miles away and won't be attending.