How Long's The Leash

[shaft]

Flomo just keeps making the same statement regardless of what anyone responds. (Maybe he's related to Plumm).

UNT doesn't have a culture of losing. A culture of losing implies losing is acceptable.

How many more examples do you need to school and fans demanding more from the team?

-Coaching changes

-Mid-season coaching changes

-Improved salaries

-Improved facilities

-New Stadium

-Strong attendance (for the conference)

[FloMoGrad]

Not at all sir, I just believe it'll take the man a minute, as our friend from Iowa was saying as well and as they (Iowa St.) experienced in Dan's last stop. I'm as excited as anybody and respect and praise the efforts of the administration, as I made an entire post about it: http://www.gomeangreen.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=57912&st=0&p=536225&hl=excitement&fromsearch=1&#entry536225

I haven't mentioned Culture of losing in about 5 posts now. I can agree to disagree, all good, but read my post before you call me out.

[GrandGreen]

I understand where you are coming from regarding the salary. After re-reading what i posted, i didn't explain what I was trying to say very well.

Basically, no matter what you pay the man, he's not working with his players yet. At this point in time, his salary is being earned by hiring quality assistants, selling the program to current players and alumni, recruiting, soliciting donations, etc. This will still be the case next year. He is of course expected to do his best with the players he has, but the win/loss results next fall will not be a completely accurate assessment of the "value" you are getting for the money he is being paid. That is what i was trying to say. If he comes out next year and goes 4-8 I hope you guys don't say, "he's the highest paid coach in the history of the SBC... we should get better than that". Heck, the first time he makes a bad call on a play and it backfires - you'll hear the money brought up. Trust me, all fan bases do that.

Just for reference, here are the Iowa State records prior to Mac getting hired:

3-8

5-6

6-5

4-6-1

3-7-1

4-7

3-8

0-10-1 (we sang the fight song in the locker room after we tied Oklahoma State the last game of the year for Christ's sake...)

Mac got hired:

3-8

2-9

1-10

3-8

4-7

9-3

7-5 (lost 4 games in OT this year... GUTWRENCHING season)

and so on

You can see that it took him a while to get the ship going in the right direction. Granted, it should be easier to get UNT cranked up and winning in the SBC than it was for I-State in the Big 12, but still... We saw VISIBLE improvement in the team, even though we didn't win as much as we wanted.

If I was vested in the UNT program (season tickets, donations, whatever), i'd say the guy has three years before an accurate evaluation of his total job performance can be made. After that, he better be earning his 500K + in the win-loss column.

Appreciate your insight, but I think NT is probably much closer to being a championship team in the Belt than ISU was in the B12. Canales basically demonstrated that in his brief HC stint. NT was in every ball game except a bad performance against ULM, and could have easily won against the conference co-champ Troy and B12 Kansas State. NT will have the best returning back in the Belt and the State and some other talented players. No the team is nowhere close to being equal to even a mediocre AQ school, but it doesn't have to be in the Belt. The Belt won't be easy for NT because there are a lot of teams returning more than NT but I believe until proven wrong that NT has assembled a heck of a coaching staff. I am happy that NT got McCarney but I am also very happy with the coaching staff that McCarney has recruited. I do think that NT will win a few that they should not talent wise because of the coaching staff.

[FirefightnRick]

UNT doesn't have a culture of losing. A culture of losing implies losing is acceptable.

How many more examples do you need to school and fans demanding more from the team?

-Coaching changes

-Mid-season coaching changes

-Improved salaries

-Improved facilities

-New Stadium

-Strong attendance (for the conference)

I agree. There are folks who have seen nothing but losing since they have been here and may feel that is all that goes on here, although they would have had to of ignored the men's basketball program to be in that mind set. BostonSportsFan has yet to see a win at home, so football wise, his group may think this way. But most of us were here in the Fry years, the Corky years, the Simon Conference Championship season and the Dickey years and saw some great winning traditions. We don't see a culture of losing, we see our program in a slump. But we have also seen our school recently up the expectation level, facility and coaching wise, which to me solidifies a tone set for a new and improved culture of winning.

Rick

Edited December 16, 2010 by FirefightnRick

[TheColonyEagle]

If we don't win the Sunbelt next year I will be disappointed.

[eulessismore]

I think our record next year depends on how well we recruit defensive tackles and cornerbacks between now and national signing day.

[UNTLifer]

No, we didn't.

We were competetive, but in no way, shape or form did we almost beat Kansas St.

Up by 13 in the first half. Outside of a bad punt providing good field position to KSU and allowing them to take the lead just prior to the half, we should have been up 20-14 or maybe even 20-7 at halftime. Not sure what game you watched, but the outcome could have gone either way, and if we would have realized they were running to the right 95% of the time and set up some indication of a defense to stop this we would have won.

[Cerebus]

I think we should at least give him to halftime of the first game to get things turned around.

This is exactly the kind of mollycoddling that has kept the giant asleep all these years!

[UNTLifer]

I think we should at least give him to halftime of the first game to get things turned around.

He should be forced to walk barefoot from Denton to Ames if we aren't up by 50, no 55 by halftime and playing our scout team.

[UNT90]

Up by 13 in the first half. Outside of a bad punt providing good field position to KSU and allowing them to take the lead just prior to the half, we should have been up 20-14 or maybe even 20-7 at halftime. Not sure what game you watched, but the outcome could have gone either way, and if we would have realized they were running to the right 95% of the time and set up some indication of a defense to stop this we would have won.

Sick and tired of the "we were up in the first half" moral victories, the "if only we hadn't shanked a punt" or "if only our defense hadn't given up 300 yards rushing" justifications.

We were down 2 scores in the 3rd quarter and never got closer than 8 points.

But, lets play your game for a second. Riley went out of the game with 10 minutes left in the 4th. Kansas St. went way conservative on offense, knowing that we had no passing threat and they could completely key on the run. Whose to say that they don't come right back down the field and score after we cut it to 8 (like they had all day) if Riley is not hurt? See how fun playing "if and buts" can be?

Don't get me wrong, I was very glad that it was a competitive game, but to say we "almost won" is just not true.

Edited December 16, 2010 by UNT90

[Yellow Snow]

I am, and 3 yrs is fair enough in my mind, even 4.

4-8 next yr is a success in a lot of ways next year, and provided we're actually building with young talent and seeing improvement, I'll be happy with the slow build methodology.

And for reference, our last 6 yrs:

2-9

3-9

2-10

1-11

2-10

3-9

I will say there has been improvement since the 1-11 season where we were just not competitive, but it hasn't translated to wins. We had a ton of close games the past 2 yrs, at least 4 in 09, that we lost on last drive, final play type of scores, to lose a lead and the game.

4-8 is absolutely possible, we have playmakers, on both sides of the ball, and should have a surge of support that will at least translate to adrenaline. We could go 6-6 very easily as well, the SBC is so close, we beat the conference champs this yr. It'll be fun no matter what and I expect an immediate impact on the defensive side of the ball. Our offense under Canales tenure really expanded and seems ready to be explosive like we expected as well.

All in all, exciting time to be a Mean Green Fan and I can't wait till Sept!

I think you are right. There is probably a lot more parity in the SBC than in the Big 12, which should speed up the turnaround process. However, the flip side to this is that there are more toss up games each season. Nobody outclasses you, but at the same time, nobody is a sure win either. It’ll be interesting to see how these games go this fall.

At Iowa State, Mac was handicapped by the fact that we had 2 or 3 built in losses (sometimes 4) on the schedule before we even played a game. He beat Iowa half the time, so that wasn’t a sure loss like it was for the prior coaching staff (we lost 15 in a row before Mac). It’s hard to show win/loss progress playing a schedule like this. Hopefully UNT doesn’t have to schedule many “unwinnable” games each year.

Which brings up a point... I know you guys have some pay for play road games. Hopefully with improved fan support and the new stadium you won’t have to do that much anymore. Every win helps to build the program. Money losses really don’t do anything but cement the fact that you aren’t on the same level as the teams you get money to play… at least from my outside perspective.

Start kicking everybody’s ass in the SBC first and earn credibility with recruits. That way you have no problem telling a guy, “Yea... we could beat (insert AQ team here), look at our conference championships, etc.” You could say this because you haven’t proved you couldn’t by playing and losing. If you play the money game and get rolled there’s no doubt. Kind of like what you guys say SMU does to you. They talk like they could kick your ass, but don't play and prove it. As long as they don’t play you, they’ll keep saying that to recruits, media, whomever…

We went through that this year. We added Utah to the non-con. to bump up the competition. Our fans were clamoring for better opponents than Northern Illinois… Well, Utah stomped us 68-27 at our place on national tv. It was embarrassing… That hurt WAAAY more than it helped. We went 5-7 and missed a bowl game.

Sure you could win one of these games, but the chances of getting destroyed by teams like Alabama are much greater than winning them. You’ll make the ESPN highlight clips mostly chasing guys into the end-zone. Before Mac, I lived through I-State making sportscenter every Saturday night because we had just gotten rolled by somebody. That to me is bad publicity and sticks in people’s minds much, much longer than close losses to teams like K-State. Again… this is just my honest perspective. Hopefully, with the increase in revenue UNT won't have to play these types of games in the future.

Stop and think about it for a second. What is your perception of Iowa State football and how did you reach that opinion? The bottom line is that we spent a long time getting publically drubbed by everybody. That is what people remember. On the other hand, what do you think the highest AP rating Iowa State has achieved in the last decade?

We were ranked 9th in the nation 8 games into the 2001 season. Bet you didn’t know that

Edited December 16, 2010 by Yellow Snow

[FloMoGrad]

I think you are right. There is probably a lot more parity in the SBC than in the Big 12, which should speed up the turnaround process. However, the flip side to this is that there are more toss up games each season. Nobody outclasses you, but at the same time, nobody is a sure win either. It’ll be interesting to see how these games go this fall.

At Iowa State, Mac was handicapped by the fact that we had 2 or 3 built in losses (sometimes 4) on the schedule before we even played a game. He beat Iowa half the time, so that wasn’t a sure loss like it was for the prior coaching staff (we lost 15 in a row before Mac). It’s hard to show win/loss progress playing a schedule like this. Hopefully UNT doesn’t have to schedule many “unwinnable” games each year.

Which brings up a point... I know you guys have some pay for play road games. Hopefully with improved fan support and the new stadium you won’t have to do that much anymore. Every win helps to build the program. Money losses really don’t do anything but cement the fact that you aren’t on the same level as the teams you get money to play… at least from my outside perspective.

Start kicking everybody’s ass in the SBC first and earn credibility with recruits. That way you have no problem telling a guy, “Yea... we could beat (insert AQ team here), look at our conference championships, etc.” You could say this because you haven’t proved you couldn’t by playing and losing. If you play the money game and get rolled there’s no doubt. Kind of like what you guys say SMU does to you. They talk like they could kick your ass, but don't play and prove it. As long as they don’t play you, they’ll keep saying that to recruits, media, whomever…

We went through that this year. We added Utah to the non-con. to bump up the competition. Our fans were clamoring for better opponents than Northern Illinois… Well, Utah stomped us 68-27 at our place on national tv. It was embarrassing… That hurt WAAAY more than it helped. We went 5-7 and missed a bowl game.

Sure you could win one of these games, but the chances of getting destroyed by teams like Alabama are much greater than winning them. You’ll make the ESPN highlight clips mostly chasing guys into the end-zone. Before Mac, I lived through I-State making sportscenter every Saturday night because we had just gotten rolled by somebody. That to me is bad publicity and sticks in people’s minds much, much longer than close losses to teams like K-State. Again… this is just my honest perspective. Hopefully, with the increase in revenue UNT won't have to play these types of games in the future.

Stop and think about it for a second. What is your perception of Iowa State football and how did you reach that opinion? The bottom line is that we spent a long time getting publically drubbed by everybody. That is what people remember. On the other hand, what do you think the highest AP rating Iowa State has achieved in the last decade?

We were ranked 9th in the nation 8 games into the 2001 season. Bet you didn’t know that

My perception of Iowa State football is proably higher than most, I remember the 2001 season, and '02, little guy named Seneca Wallace had the nation and Big XII buzzing and I would have guessed 15th national ranking, didn't realize you had climbed as high as 9th.

I have a cousin in Ankeny (sp) and he keeps me tuned in... But great point, perceptions don't change over night, everybody thought Boise was a one-hit wonder 2 yrs ago when they knocked off Oklahoma... Funny how that works...

We would love to drop off those "Payout" games and I agree, increased revenues from the stadium, luxury boxes, club level, should help to offset our expenditures and allow us to re-examine that policy.

All-in-all, we're so much closer to where everyone sees this program going and wants it to be, than we ever have in the past, and I have the utmost confidence we'll see an immediate improvement. Hell, Miami (Oh) went 1-11 last year and turned it around to 9-4 this year and a bowl game... There's no reason we can't hope and expect for similar returns on our investment.

But good points nonetheless...

Edited December 16, 2010 by FloMoGrad

[Adub4ever]

i think Riley is the key to our success next year. he improved alot this year, so if we dont find a stud JUCO he will be driving the ship. im hoping coach mac can bring in some talent on the defense where we are hurting the most... but the Dodge - Dunbar connection will be in its prime next season... our offense was explosive at time this season, just wait until next year...im praying in the next few weeks we can bring in a 3* DT or LB... really anything we get on defense at this point will go a long way to help us win games next year... i think 6 wins should be everyones expectation... Houston and Indiana are very winnable games if like coach mac said, "we play good defense, good special teams, and good kicking...

Edited December 16, 2010 by Adub4ever

[Adub4ever]

I think you are right. There is probably a lot more parity in the SBC than in the Big 12, which should speed up the turnaround process. However, the flip side to this is that there are more toss up games each season. Nobody outclasses you, but at the same time, nobody is a sure win either. It’ll be interesting to see how these games go this fall.

At Iowa State, Mac was handicapped by the fact that we had 2 or 3 built in losses (sometimes 4) on the schedule before we even played a game. He beat Iowa half the time, so that wasn’t a sure loss like it was for the prior coaching staff (we lost 15 in a row before Mac). It’s hard to show win/loss progress playing a schedule like this. Hopefully UNT doesn’t have to schedule many “unwinnable” games each year.

Which brings up a point... I know you guys have some pay for play road games. Hopefully with improved fan support and the new stadium you won’t have to do that much anymore. Every win helps to build the program. Money losses really don’t do anything but cement the fact that you aren’t on the same level as the teams you get money to play… at least from my outside perspective.

Start kicking everybody’s ass in the SBC first and earn credibility with recruits. That way you have no problem telling a guy, “Yea... we could beat (insert AQ team here), look at our conference championships, etc.” You could say this because you haven’t proved you couldn’t by playing and losing. If you play the money game and get rolled there’s no doubt. Kind of like what you guys say SMU does to you. They talk like they could kick your ass, but don't play and prove it. As long as they don’t play you, they’ll keep saying that to recruits, media, whomever…

We went through that this year. We added Utah to the non-con. to bump up the competition. Our fans were clamoring for better opponents than Northern Illinois… Well, Utah stomped us 68-27 at our place on national tv. It was embarrassing… That hurt WAAAY more than it helped. We went 5-7 and missed a bowl game.

Sure you could win one of these games, but the chances of getting destroyed by teams like Alabama are much greater than winning them. You’ll make the ESPN highlight clips mostly chasing guys into the end-zone. Before Mac, I lived through I-State making sportscenter every Saturday night because we had just gotten rolled by somebody. That to me is bad publicity and sticks in people’s minds much, much longer than close losses to teams like K-State. Again… this is just my honest perspective. Hopefully, with the increase in revenue UNT won't have to play these types of games in the future.

Stop and think about it for a second. What is your perception of Iowa State football and how did you reach that opinion? The bottom line is that we spent a long time getting publically drubbed by everybody. That is what people remember. On the other hand, what do you think the highest AP rating Iowa State has achieved in the last decade?

We were ranked 9th in the nation 8 games into the 2001 season. Bet you didn’t know that

man you just blew my mind with that one... i had no idea ISU were ranked #9??? i watch alot of football and i dont even remember that...

[Got5onIt]

I'm expecting a winning season within 3 years. 4-5 wins next year would be good start, IMO.

[Mean Green 93-98]

By expecting a bowl game or a conference title in the next couple of years you are basically saying your previous coach took conference champion talent and won 3 games.

I don't know about conference champion talent, but I would put our talent in the top 3 of the Belt, top 4 at worst. There is little doubt that we underperformed our talent.

[Graddean]

Cerebus, you are a hard man. Were you one of my chemistry profs.

[Mean Green 93-98]

Cerebus, you are a hard man. Were you one of my chemistry profs.

I don't know--what do you say, Jack?

[shaft]

I don't know about conference champion talent, but I would put our talent in the top 3 of the Belt, top 4 at worst. There is little doubt that we underperformed our talent.

6-6 is top three in the Belt. And I think that's realistic for next year.

[jimbob]

i think Riley is the key to our success next year. he improved alot this year, so if we dont find a stud JUCO he will be driving the ship. im hoping coach mac can bring in some talent on the defense where we are hurting the most... but the Dodge - Dunbar connection will be in its prime next season... our offense was explosive at time this season, just wait until next year...im praying in the next few weeks we can bring in a 3* DT or LB... really anything we get on defense at this point will go a long way to help us win games next year... i think 6 wins should be everyones expectation... Houston and Indiana are very winnable games if like coach mac said, "we play good defense, good special teams, and good kicking...

The coaching staff will be grooming Thompson at QB next year. Riley could make a run at QB if they let him (doubt it). I'm a little confused on the wins at Houston & Indiana; those are "maybes" at best. Stick to our conference; that's where we'll see wins if we can put together a winning mentality. In any event, the defense will have to come up a good bit to win many games. Looking at last year; the final 5 games we were 2-3, but we probably could've won 2 of the lost 3 if Canales dictated the culture earlier in the season. This is going to be interesting and fun! THE KEY IS D!