How Long's The Leash

[MeanGreenTexan]

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I never said the cupboard was bare, just in some spots. You telling me DT looks strong for next year? QB? LB? Secondary? O-Line?

I'm going to say this position looks strong next year barring another catastrophic, injury-plagued year. Riley is the man and Thompson will be a very capable backup.

[oldguystudent]

We were competetive, but in no way, shape or form did we almost beat Kansas St.

The Kansas St coaches seemed to have disagreed with you. I believe the quote walking out of the booth was something along the lines of, "I don't care what the scoreboard says. You guys beat us today."

[Mean Green 93-98]

It seems like one question is being asked, and another is being answered.

The questions sounds to me as if you are asking what is considered successful enough to keep Coach Mac around. I assume his contract is 5 years, and for the dollar amount it is, I don't see us buying out more than one year of it regardless of how badly he might underperform. So he's pretty well guaranteed 4 years to try to turn this thing around.

But personally, I would like to see improvement a whole lot quicker. We'll return a lot of pieces, but the loss of Shavod and Kelvin at the DTs is huge. Losing Craig Robertson is pretty big too, but I think we've got enough players to come close to compensating. We should be returning a lot of players who didn't play most of this season--getting Steven Ford back will be huge. I think it is very reasonable to expect a 6-6 season next year, and by Coach Mac's third year he should be expected to win the Sun Belt. Failing to do either of those things won't get him fired, but I hope he has set expectations at least as high for himself.

[Monkeypox]

Every year, the goals are the same.

1) Win the Sun Belt

2) Get in a Bowl Game

I think both are achievable next year, if only because the Sun Belt was so craptastic this year that there's no one there to really scare you. That said, when the most wins you've had the last umpteen years is 3, I think setting the bar for next year at a 6-win/Bowl Game season is probably more realistic.

Next year, we'd better be .500. It isn't that hard. But it's not like I'll be calling for a new staff's heads if we only win 4.

But I think Mac gets at least 4 years, unless the first 2 are as abysmal as the last 2. I just really don't see any way that happens with this staff and facilities and committment.

Once you start regularly competing, you increase the goals of the team. At some point, we'll have to start winning OOC and bowl games. We're just sadly not there yet. I think we could easily get there in the next few years. But you gotta put things in their proper order.

[UNT90]

The Kansas St coaches seemed to have disagreed with you. I believe the quote walking out of the booth was something along the lines of, "I don't care what the scoreboard says. You guys beat us today."

Gracious, indeed.

But the only thing that matters IS what the scoreboard said, and it said we lost by 8 points. Let's all not forget that any chance of winning that game was carted off the field with 10 minutes left in the 4th quarter.

Now, If we had missed on 4th and goal from the K St. 2 yard line with 20 seconds left in a 4 point game, then THAT would be a "almost beat" of K St.

As it stands, we didn't even almost TIE Kansas St. in regulation.

[Monkeypox]

Gracious, indeed.

But the only thing that matters IS what the scoreboard said, and it said we lost by 8 points. Let's all not forget that any chance of winning that game was carted off the field with 10 minutes left in the 4th quarter.

Now, If we had missed on 4th and goal from the K St. 2 yard line with 20 seconds left in a 4 point game, then THAT would be a "almost beat" of K St.

As it stands, we didn't even almost TIE Kansas St. in regulation.

Correct.

I also have a problem believing that a K-State coach didn't actually care what the scoreboard said. Maybe someone can call him up and see if they'd like to protest their win and forfeit it to us, since we beat them that day in all the categories that don't matter, like hearts and minds.

[FloMoGrad]

Every year, the goals are the same.

1) Win the Sun Belt

2) Get in a Bowl Game

I think both are achievable next year, if only because the Sun Belt was so craptastic this year that there's no one there to really scare you. That said, when the most wins you've had the last umpteen years is 3, I think setting the bar for next year at a 6-win/Bowl Game season is probably more realistic.

Next year, we'd better be .500. It isn't that hard. But it's not like I'll be calling for a new staff's heads if we only win 4.

But I think Mac gets at least 4 years, unless the first 2 are as abysmal as the last 2. I just really don't see any way that happens with this staff and facilities and committment.

Once you start regularly competing, you increase the goals of the team. At some point, we'll have to start winning OOC and bowl games. We're just sadly not there yet. I think we could easily get there in the next few years. But you gotta put things in their proper order.

Kind of what I was thinking and where I was trying to steer things... Solid post and thoughts.

[UNTP1]

I'm going to say this position looks strong next year barring another catastrophic, injury-plagued year. Riley is the man and Thompson will be a very capable backup.

Gagree, I think we have 2 solid options at QB.

[FloMoGrad]

Gagree, I think we have 2 solid options at QB.

Dodge hasn't made it thru a season yet, and with a history of back and shoulder issues, I don't believe he will. That's far from a solid option.

Let me give you 2010 stats for D Thompson:

Comp Att Yds Comp % Yds/Att Td's Ints Rating

Derek Thompson 11 18 83 61.1 4.61 0 1 88.7

That is so far from solid I don't know how you could even make that statement.

Riley is a solid QB, but his consistent and long term injury issues don't make him a solid option in my mind.

QB is an area of need or we wouldn't be looking at bringing in a Juco QB for 2 yrs.

[eulesseagle]

Had it been up to me, I would have shown him the door about 5mins after those words left his mouth.

IMHO, I think you were really ready to show him the door when you spoke to Ramon Flannigan in the stands.

[NT71]

My 2 cents is that Mac is being paid to be the CEO of the UNT Football Team. It is his responsibility to bring in both a coaching staff who can coach but also recruit. I firmly believe that given the parameters set forth, and his offensive coordinator, UNT games are going to be exciting! His defensive coordinator will get the most out of his existing players and special teams will greatly improve.

Now for my expectations nine wins!!

I base that on those coaches who are being hired and speculation of those athletes coming to play football at UNT.

[UNTP1]

Dodge hasn't made it thru a season yet, and with a history of back and shoulder issues, I don't believe he will. That's far from a solid option.

Let me give you 2010 stats for D Thompson:

Comp Att Yds Comp % Yds/Att Td's Ints Rating

Derek Thompson 11 18 83 61.1 4.61 0 1 88.7

That is so far from solid I don't know how you could even make that statement.

Riley is a solid QB, but his consistent and long term injury issues don't make him a solid option in my mind.

QB is an area of need or we wouldn't be looking at bringing in a Juco QB for 2 yrs.

As far as Riley is concerned I think that his injuries of the past are not as much of an issue as many people believe for 2 reasons.

1)Canales knows how to use him as he showed in the second half of the with Riley being able play through a bad wrist without anymore injury other than the incident at the end of the K-state game.

2) Another year of getting stronger under a trusted strength and conditioning coach will make him even more durable.

[FloMoGrad]

As far as Riley is concerned I think that his injuries of the past are not as much of an issue as many people believe for 2 reasons.

1)Canales knows how to use him as he showed in the second half of the with Riley being able play through a bad wrist without anymore injury other than the incident at the end of the K-state game.

2) Another year of getting stronger under a trusted strength and conditioning coach will make him even more durable.

Back and Shoulder injuries don't go away. You dislocate a shoulder, and you are forever more likely to dislocate it again. Back issues, just a nightmare from the start.

Canales knows how to use him, ie don't let him run the ball, but that doesn't stop him from taking big hits while working from the shotgun or under center.

Ankle issue, or knee problem, and I agree whole heartedly with you. But I watched my brother battle shoulder issues every year when he was at Kilgore and then at Marshall, and 5 yrs later, he still has shoulder issues and is looking at rotator cuff surgery in the next few years, as soon as the pain gets to be unbearable.

[CMJ]

I'm thinking 4-5 wins in Year 1, and a conference title (or at least in contention) in Year 2.

[shaft]

I'm not sure a bad record is the same as a culture of losing.

[FloMoGrad]

I'm not sure a bad record is the same as a culture of losing.

What about 6 straight years of terrible records? We're not talking about an off year. We're talking about some of the worst performances in the 70 plus years of UNT football.

We haven't found a way to win, with any consistency, so what else is left. If you lose, year in, year out, for 6 straight years, thru 2 different coaches, countless #'s of different players and even several different presidents, then my friend, you are left with a culture of losing. Again, all it takes is one winning season and the culture is changed.

Do I think Coach Mac changes that culture, absolutely, but do not discount it, the culture of UNT football is losing, regardless of the efforts made to change it. Winning is the only way to remedy and change that culture. Period.

[ColoradoEagle]

If I knew someone contemplating suicide, I would not direct them to this thread.

[Dr. Seuss]

A bowl game, the sun belt isnt that great of a conference where you need 3-4 star players. As long as the coaches prepare the players we can beat anyone, anything less will be a disapointment. You think RV wants to have a losing season opening up the new stadium? The only way they will start selling season tickets is if they win, and they will win!! GMG

[GrandGreen]

But how can you say you will be disappointed if this team doesn't fight for a conference championship and then back it up with he will at least get 4-5 yrs?

My argument is that the leash might be even shorter, because commitment levels have risen so much in the past 5 yrs. More investment, means higher expectations for returns on those investments.

I never said the cupboard was bare, just in some spots. You telling me DT looks strong for next year? QB? LB? Secondary? O-Line?

Never said we didn't have talent, but there are obvious holes the previous staff chose not to address. Again, not as bad as when TD took over, but not leaps and bounds better?

But then again, if memory serves me correct, TD did inherit a national rushing champ?

Define leash, NT is not about to buy out a 500k a year contract, no matter how bad it gets. So he will have plenty of time to build the program, but my expectations are that he will do much better than that. As far as the team looking strong next year, you can argue that ether way; Chancellor, Dunbar, Olin, Dodge, Carey, Phillips gives NT a fairly strong base plus all the injured that should return: Johnson, Leppio, Atterberry, Cook, Thompson, Brown, Hamington, Sashington, Ford and others.

No defensive tackle appears very weak, but QB should be much better with a healthy Thompson and hopefully stronger Dodge. LB lacks numbers, but Orr and Phillips should be strong and Herron, Johnson have experience. Secondary should be much stronger than this year losing only one player Ira Smith who did not start at the end of the year. McCord, Ford, Hill, Jackson, Downing, Cook, Shorter, Wright and Graham all return. The offensive line lost standouts Santiago, Gill and a hobbled Drake. They return Leppio, Johnson, Freeley, Tomlinson, Fortenberry who have all started.

Actually the team that Dodge took over should have been pretty good on the defensive side. Dodge's reliance on jucos will hurt next years team because there is little depth. However, the new staff will bring in some good players this year that hopefully will fill most of the holes.

[Graddean]

I think we should at least give him to halftime of the first game to get things turned around.

[FloMoGrad]

Define leash, NT is not about to buy out a 500k a year contract, no matter how bad it gets. So he will have plenty of time to build the program, but my expectations are that he will do much better than that. As far as the team looking strong next year, you can argue that ether way; Chancellor, Dunbar, Olin, Dodge, Carey, Phillips gives NT a fairly strong base plus all the injured that should return: Johnson, Leppio, Atterberry, Cook, Thompson, Brown, Hamington, Sashington, Ford and others.

No defensive tackle appears very weak, but QB should be much better with a healthy Thompson and hopefully stronger Dodge. LB lacks numbers, but Orr and Phillips should be strong and Herron, Johnson have experience. Secondary should be much stronger than this year losing only one player Ira Smith who did not start at the end of the year. McCord, Ford, Hill, Jackson, Downing, Cook, Shorter, Wright and Graham all return. The offensive line lost standouts Santiago, Gill and a hobbled Drake. They return Leppio, Johnson, Freeley, Tomlinson, Fortenberry who have all started.

Actually the team that Dodge took over should have been pretty good on the defensive side. Dodge's reliance on jucos will hurt next years team because there is little depth. However, the new staff will bring in some good players this year that hopefully will fill most of the holes.

Great Post. I'm extremely optimistic about our future, including next year, regardless of the tone I might come across with. Was looking for some good insight as to the reality of our situation, think you summed it up well.

[Yellow Snow]

Interesting discussion. This is the exact same conversation we had when Dan came to Ames. What would be a reasonable amount of time to give him to get things turned around?

I have seen several people comment on Mac's salary and the expectations that come along with it. His salary really shouldn't be a consideration in the discussion. Whether he is making 50k a year or 500k a year... he should be expected to win either way. He took the job after all. It's not like he'd try harder if he got paid more.

The investment UNT has made in athletics, football specifically, will certainly help Mac do his job. He is a great recruiter, and having first rate facilities to sell is a big advantage. That said, you guys won't see the fruits of this brand new stadium in recruiting for a couple of years. The guys he'll sign this spring will either be commits to the previous staff he convinces to stay, or last minute guys available to fill certain positional needs. He'll need time to get the UNT brand out to high schoolers in FUTURE recruiting classes. THAT is where your facilities and commitment to football come in to play. He'll hold padded football camps for high school juniors and high school coaches. They'll come to campus and see the stadium, locker rooms, etc. That's RECRUITING... i don't know if your prior staff did this, but Mac made it a HUGE priority at I-State. He'd have upwards of 120 high school guys in Ames for camps... a recruiting infomercial... He's never seen ANY of your current players work out it person. It is unreasonable to expect him to be able to identify deficiencies without having full knowledge of the existing personnel.

That's where schools like Iowa State and UNT make their money. Get on kids early, show them love, and build trust. This takes a bit of time, but the long term payoff is way better than throwing out a ton of offers to guys that aren't going to sign with you anyway. You may come in 2nd to Oklahoma for a 5 star recruit... what does that get you in the end? Mac LIVES off of identifying guys that are solid players and getting on them early. At I-State we would lose a few guys here and there that "blew up" their senior year and Nebraska would offer, but overall - the loyalty factor between the kid and Mac inked a lot of talented kids at I-State that could have played anywhere. In order to dominate the SBC you don't NEED to beat OU and Baylor for guys... yet anyway...

I think some of you are a bit optimistic talking about winning the conference, bowl games, etc. in the next couple of years. There is a reason that you haven't won more than 3 games in a while. No matter how much you X and O as a coach - there's only so much you can do. By expecting a bowl game or a conference title in the next couple of years you are basically saying your previous coach took conference champion talent and won 3 games.

Anyhoo... here's to a good off season and some kick ass spring football!

GMG!

[FloMoGrad]

Interesting discussion. This is the exact same conversation we had when Dan came to Ames. What would be a reasonable amount of time to give him to get things turned around?

...

I think some of you are a bit optimistic talking about winning the conference, bowl games, etc. in the next couple of years. There is a reason that you haven't won more than 3 games in a while. No matter how much you X and O as a coach - there's only so much you can do. By expecting a bowl game or a conference title in the next couple of years you are basically saying your previous coach took conference champion talent and won 3 games.

Anyhoo... here's to a good off season and some kick ass spring football!

GMG!

Absolutely appreciate the 3rd party perspective with a unique vantage point. This has to have a deja vu feel for you?

We're ultra optimistic by nature, kind of takes that perspective to be a Mean Green Fan the last few years.

Reason we feel like expectation should be SBC champs, is b/c frankly, this isn't the Big XII. The gap between the top team and bottom team is not that wide and we were close in a lot of games the past 2 years, so many close losses it's beyond comprehension. I, for one, feel like we've just been missing the ability to find a way to win. Canales made an immediate impact, that was noticeable to all, and we feel like with some better defensive game plans and utilization of the current talent, we can compete for a SBC title immediately, which really isn't that far of a reach.

I'd be thrilled with 6-6 and that's ultra achievable, but in reality, any improvement, even if it's 4-8, will be appreciated and viewed, at least by me, as progress.

But I disagree, like any position, the more you pay, the more you expect. You expect all coaches to come in and compete and expect their teams to win and compete each week. Just like you expect all employees to come in and work hard every day. But to those you pay more, more is expected.

[Yellow Snow]

Absolutely appreciate the 3rd party perspective with a unique vantage point. This has to have a deja vu feel for you?

We're ultra optimistic by nature, kind of takes that perspective to be a Mean Green Fan the last few years.

Reason we feel like expectation should be SBC champs, is b/c frankly, this isn't the Big XII. The gap between the top team and bottom team is not that wide and we were close in a lot of games the past 2 years, so many close losses it's beyond comprehension. I, for one, feel like we've just been missing the ability to find a way to win. Canales made an immediate impact, that was noticeable to all, and we feel like with some better defensive game plans and utilization of the current talent, we can compete for a SBC title immediately, which really isn't that far of a reach.

I'd be thrilled with 6-6 and that's ultra achievable, but in reality, any improvement, even if it's 4-8, will be appreciated and viewed, at least by me, as progress.

But I disagree, like any position, the more you pay, the more you expect. You expect all coaches to come in and compete and expect their teams to win and compete each week. Just like you expect all employees to come in and work hard every day. But to those you pay more, more is expected.

I understand where you are coming from regarding the salary. After re-reading what i posted, i didn't explain what I was trying to say very well.

Basically, no matter what you pay the man, he's not working with his players yet. At this point in time, his salary is being earned by hiring quality assistants, selling the program to current players and alumni, recruiting, soliciting donations, etc. This will still be the case next year. He is of course expected to do his best with the players he has, but the win/loss results next fall will not be a completely accurate assessment of the "value" you are getting for the money he is being paid. That is what i was trying to say. If he comes out next year and goes 4-8 I hope you guys don't say, "he's the highest paid coach in the history of the SBC... we should get better than that". Heck, the first time he makes a bad call on a play and it backfires - you'll hear the money brought up. Trust me, all fan bases do that.

Just for reference, here are the Iowa State records prior to Mac getting hired:

3-8

5-6

6-5

4-6-1

3-7-1

4-7

3-8

0-10-1 (we sang the fight song in the locker room after we tied Oklahoma State the last game of the year for Christ's sake...)

Mac got hired:

3-8

2-9

1-10

3-8

4-7

9-3

7-5 (lost 4 games in OT this year... GUTWRENCHING season)

and so on

You can see that it took him a while to get the ship going in the right direction. Granted, it should be easier to get UNT cranked up and winning in the SBC than it was for I-State in the Big 12, but still... We saw VISIBLE improvement in the team, even though we didn't win as much as we wanted.

If I was vested in the UNT program (season tickets, donations, whatever), i'd say the guy has three years before an accurate evaluation of his total job performance can be made. After that, he better be earning his 500K + in the win-loss column.

[FloMoGrad]

If I was vested in the UNT program (season tickets, donations, whatever), i'd say the guy has three years before an accurate evaluation of his total job performance can be made. After that, he better be earning his 500K + in the win-loss column.

I am, and 3 yrs is fair enough in my mind, even 4.

4-8 next yr is a success in a lot of ways next year, and provided we're actually building with young talent and seeing improvement, I'll be happy with the slow build methodology.

And for reference, our last 6 yrs:

2-9

3-9

2-10

1-11

2-10

3-9

I will say there has been improvement since the 1-11 season where we were just not competitive, but it hasn't translated to wins. We had a ton of close games the past 2 yrs, at least 4 in 09, that we lost on last drive, final play type of scores, to lose a lead and the game.

4-8 is absolutely possible, we have playmakers, on both sides of the ball, and should have a surge of support that will at least translate to adrenaline. We could go 6-6 very easily as well, the SBC is so close, we beat the conference champs this yr. It'll be fun no matter what and I expect an immediate impact on the defensive side of the ball. Our offense under Canales tenure really expanded and seems ready to be explosive like we expected as well.

All in all, exciting time to be a Mean Green Fan and I can't wait till Sept!