What Unt Doesnt Bring

Dr. Seuss · December 7, 2010

To be taken really seriously in football UNT needs out of the SunBelt, plain and simple. Conference membership is status, much more than stadium size or name of head coach.

The new stadium will be a wonderful, long-needed upgrade and the hiring of a qualified head coach is a step in the right diredtion too. But overall image is everything. To potential new customers the SunBelt does not have good brand appeal. Just look at the articles flaunting new season tickets...Houston is the lead bait as opponent, no mention of the home SBC schedule.

We have secured two of three marketing priorities, we should keep a vigorus pace toward the third.

Winning football games is how we get out untill then, ill see you in hot springs

Dr. Seuss · December 7, 2010

I was using USA Today which is a couple years out of date, however I doubt too much has changed.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/ncaa-finances.htm

Whats wrong with making oh 5-10 mil for going to a conference championship game, or a good bowl game. Maybe even selling out your basketball and football stadium, apperal, TV coverage. Schools are advertising with their sports team everyone wants a winner, alabama had their highest freshman applactions and admissions last year. Is it because they got a great Science school, im quite certain to say that I highly doubt it. Everything cost money but it how much you make is what matters. People need to look at PROFIT, no cost or revenue but PROFIT. When schools start losing money on sports then we can talk about our spending.

jazzer88 · December 7, 2010

I honestly hope the UNT culture is changing, but the overriding discussion here is about money. Unfortunately, this may one of the worst times in UNT's history to look for funding. ARG! Times are really getting tough all over.

http://www.statesman.com/news/texas-politics/texas-colleges-universities-bracing-for-deep-budget-cuts-1047820.html?viewAsSinglePage=true&sms_ss=email&at_xt=4cfe87cf3b744b26%2C0

jtm0097 · December 7, 2010

I recently just had my last business policy class, which is the last business class you have to take before graduation. Anyways my professor Grant Miles was encouraging us to all one day if we can give back to the university. I thought that was kind of awesome, because I have not heard any professors say that.

meangreenacct · December 7, 2010

Whats wrong with making oh 5-10 mil for going to a conference championship game, or a good bowl game. Maybe even selling out your basketball and football stadium, apperal, TV coverage. Schools are advertising with their sports team everyone wants a winner, alabama had their highest freshman applactions and admissions last year. Is it because they got a great Science school, im quite certain to say that I highly doubt it. Everything cost money but it how much you make is what matters. People need to look at PROFIT, no cost or revenue but PROFIT. When schools start losing money on sports then we can talk about our spending.

You do realize that most athletics programs operate at a loss, right? This is especially true when direct institutional support is taken out.

I don't think you can judge the schools athletics program on profit and loss, that ignores the intangible benefits like additional exposure due to a successful program, how connected alumni feel to their university, etc.

TodgeRodge · December 7, 2010

Always so positive...thanks for your input. So, what actual data tells you that the law school will be a disaster? I am just curious as I have not seen any data on that point. If so, that means everyone involved with trying to start the UNT Law School is an idiot and have their heads up their rear ends, right? They must have done absolutely ZERO pre-planning and pre-study and the approving boards all fell asleep and just rubber-stamped the thing, right? Really, I don't know, but this sort of thinking leads to the idea that UNT is "second rate" in its leadership and is looking to "fail". It is also the sort of comments that I refer to when I state that way too many people want to only see the negative and bad in everything UNT does. While no expert on law schools, I would think that a public law school in the north Texas area would have a better than average chance of being successful as there is no other public law school in the area.

yes not only have I seen data.....I have seen data right from the THECB.....and the US Bureau of Labor Statistics

so yes I do 100% think those that wanted to start the UNT dallas college of law are idiots

they did plenty of pre-planning and pre-studying on the law school and 100% of that came back and told them there was no need for an additional law school in Texas and especially in the dfw metromess......and they ignored 100% of that

and the THECB would not have approved the law school......but in The State of Texas if the legislators create, approve, and fund something then it becomes out of the control of the THECB as far as being approved or not

please do a quick study of legal employment now and into the future...law firms are starting to out source work to India as we speak and this will only further crush the legal hiring environment.....only the top students from the top 15 or 20 law schools still have any certain chance of getting a legal job that will pay their loans and allow them to live.....the rest are fighting for scraps.....UNT will start out as the lowest tier of law school and it will stay that way for the foreseeable future.....because it is going to be very poorly funded, it will have horrible facilities, and it is going to be located in an area that already attracts a great deal of top flight law school graduates from in and out of state

SMU has plenty of financial aid available for any QUALIFIED student.....I believe that TWU law offers 100% tuition deferral for students.....so cost is not an obstacle to legal education in Texas.....unless you are a very marginal applicant

http://www.thecb.state.tx.us/files/dmfile/IVJFeasibilityofEstablisihingaPublicLawSchool.pdf

The supply of Texas law school graduates and lawyers imported from other states appears to be more than sufficient to meet the current demand for new lawyers in Texas. There were 1,837 attorneys who passed the Texas Bar exam in 2009, and the Texas Workforce Commission projects 1,660 new lawyers will be hired per year through 2016.

Texas has fewer lawyers per 100,000 population (303) than the median of the 10 most populous states (328), although the major urban areas of Houston, Dallas/Fort Worth, and Austin exceed this median.

The number of duplicated applications to Texas law schools declined 11 percent since 2004.

While there is no standard for an ideal ratio of lawyers to population, in 2009 the Texas average of 303 lawyers per 100,000 population was lower than the average of the 10 most populous states (328). However, there is no conclusive evidence to suggest that Texas as a whole is in immediate need of more lawyers now or in the near future, although there are certainly rural areas of Texas that are underserved. Over the next five years, the number of lawyers is projected to grow at a faster rate than the increase in population.3 Since the number of law school graduates exceeds the number of projected annual job openings, this expanding workforce need is likely to be met even though the number of law school graduates in Texas is not keeping pace with population growth.

The Coordinating Board does not recommend the creation of a new law school at this time. Existing public law schools have the capacity to expand enrollments and provide greater opportunities for students from all regions of the state and across all demographic groups.

Like many other professions, the legal profession has changed drastically in the last several

years. It, too, is a casualty of the recession. Many large firms have lain off associates and even

partners, while many others have delayed making offers to newly minted lawyers. As Thomas

Morgan puts it in his 2010 The Vanishing American Lawyer, “(M)any lawyers now have doubts

about their economic future … Over 4,000 lawyers—some of them experienced partners—have

lost their positions at major American firms in 2009. Job offers to many 2009 law graduates

have been „deferred‟ to a later, unspecified date. Law firm partners have tried to keep their own

earnings steady, but as the chair of one firm put it, „We can‟t beat the donkeys any harder.‟ In

short says another writer wryly, „a law degree isn‟t necessarily a license to print money these

days.‟”

These gloomy anecdotal accounts are borne out by the United States Department of Labor‟s

Bureau of Labor Statistics. The Bureau of Labor Statistics currently projects that although there will be a 13 percent growth in the number of jobs for lawyers between 2008 and 2018, “Competition for job openings should continue to be keen because of the large number of students graduating from law school each year.”9 At the same time the number of students increases, demand is likely to decline for discretionary legal services such as planning estates, drafting wills, and handling real estate transactions due to “do it yourself” websites and publications that walk consumers through the steps to complete these basic legal services. Corporations are also less likely to litigate cases when declining sales and profits restrict their budgets, and “growth in demand for lawyers will be constrained as businesses increasingly use large accounting firms and paralegals to perform some of the same functions that lawyers do.”10 As a result, much of the projected job growth will be “concentrated in salaried jobs as businesses and all levels of government employ a growing number of staff attorneys.” Fewer lucrative positions as associates or partners will be open, and more graduates will be forced to take lower-paying salaried positions at organizations other than legal firms and the public sector or even lower-paying contract positions. The Bureau of Labor Statistics also notes that the “number of self-employed lawyers is expected to grow slowly, reflecting the difficulty of establishing a profitable new practice in the face of competition from larger, established law firms.” And, although more lawyers may become involved in offering services as contract employees, the profitability of these services is small compared to the earnings that attorneys in independent practice or the corporate setting might make. The silver lining of this economy for the legal profession, however, is that “during recessions, for example, individuals and corporations face other legal problems, such as bankruptcies, foreclosures, and divorces—all requiring legal action.”11

Graduates with superior academic records from highly regarded law schools will have the best job opportunities. Perhaps as a result of competition for attorney positions, lawyers are increasingly finding work in less traditional areas for which legal trainings is an asset, but not normally a requirement. As in the past, some graduates may have to accept positions outside of their field of interest or for which they feel overqualified. Some recent law school graduates who have been unable to find permanent positions are turning to the growing number of temporary staffing firms that place attorneys in short-term jobs.12

The applicant growth at Texas institutions is not uniform, however; between 2000 and 2009 all nine Texas law schools experienced significant growth in the number of applications, ranging from 36 percent growth at The University of Texas at Austin to 127 percent growth at Texas Southern University. However, when application trends are looked at for the last two years worth of available data, 2007-2009, a very different trend emerges. During this period, four of the nine Texas law schools actually experienced decreases in applications while the remaining schools experienced only slight increases (see Figure 5). 21 This indicates a strong possibility that fewer students are currently interested in attending law school in Texas.

The Coordinating Board does not recommend the creation of a new law school at this time. Existing public law schools have the capacity to expand enrollments and provide greater opportunities for students from all regions of the state and across all demographic groups

here is more reading

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1887270,00.html

untjim1995 · December 7, 2010

yes not only have I seen data.....I have seen data right from the THECB.....and the US Bureau of Labor Statistics

so yes I do 100% think those that wanted to start the UNT dallas college of law are idiots

they did plenty of pre-planning and pre-studying on the law school and 100% of that came back and told them there was no need for an additional law school in Texas and especially in the dfw metromess......and they ignored 100% of that

and the THECB would not have approved the law school......but in The State of Texas if the legislators create, approve, and fund something then it becomes out of the control of the THECB as far as being approved or not

please do a quick study of legal employment now and into the future...law firms are starting to out source work to India as we speak and this will only further crush the legal hiring environment.....only the top students from the top 15 or 20 law schools still have any certain chance of getting a legal job that will pay their loans and allow them to live.....the rest are fighting for scraps.....UNT will start out as the lowest tier of law school and it will stay that way for the foreseeable future.....because it is going to be very poorly funded, it will have horrible facilities, and it is going to be located in an area that already attracts a great deal of top flight law school graduates from in and out of state

SMU has plenty of financial aid available for any QUALIFIED student.....I believe that TWU law offers 100% tuition deferral for students.....so cost is not an obstacle to legal education in Texas.....unless you are a very marginal applicant

http://www.thecb.state.tx.us/files/dmfile/IVJFeasibilityofEstablisihingaPublicLawSchool.pdf

The supply of Texas law school graduates and lawyers imported from other states appears to be more than sufficient to meet the current demand for new lawyers in Texas. There were 1,837 attorneys who passed the Texas Bar exam in 2009, and the Texas Workforce Commission projects 1,660 new lawyers will be hired per year through 2016.

Texas has fewer lawyers per 100,000 population (303) than the median of the 10 most populous states (328), although the major urban areas of Houston, Dallas/Fort Worth, and Austin exceed this median.

The number of duplicated applications to Texas law schools declined 11 percent since 2004.

While there is no standard for an ideal ratio of lawyers to population, in 2009 the Texas average of 303 lawyers per 100,000 population was lower than the average of the 10 most populous states (328). However, there is no conclusive evidence to suggest that Texas as a whole is in immediate need of more lawyers now or in the near future, although there are certainly rural areas of Texas that are underserved. Over the next five years, the number of lawyers is projected to grow at a faster rate than the increase in population.3 Since the number of law school graduates exceeds the number of projected annual job openings, this expanding workforce need is likely to be met even though the number of law school graduates in Texas is not keeping pace with population growth.

The Coordinating Board does not recommend the creation of a new law school at this time. Existing public law schools have the capacity to expand enrollments and provide greater opportunities for students from all regions of the state and across all demographic groups.

Like many other professions, the legal profession has changed drastically in the last several
years. It, too, is a casualty of the recession. Many large firms have lain off associates and even
partners, while many others have delayed making offers to newly minted lawyers. As Thomas
Morgan puts it in his 2010 The Vanishing American Lawyer, “(M)any lawyers now have doubts
about their economic future … Over 4,000 lawyers—some of them experienced partners—have
lost their positions at major American firms in 2009. Job offers to many 2009 law graduates
have been „deferred‟ to a later, unspecified date. Law firm partners have tried to keep their own
earnings steady, but as the chair of one firm put it, „We can‟t beat the donkeys any harder.‟ In
short says another writer wryly, „a law degree isn‟t necessarily a license to print money these
days.‟”
These gloomy anecdotal accounts are borne out by the United States Department of Labor‟s
Bureau of Labor Statistics. The Bureau of Labor Statistics currently projects that although there will be a 13 percent growth in the number of jobs for lawyers between 2008 and 2018, “Competition for job openings should continue to be keen because of the large number of students graduating from law school each year.”9 At the same time the number of students increases, demand is likely to decline for discretionary legal services such as planning estates, drafting wills, and handling real estate transactions due to “do it yourself” websites and publications that walk consumers through the steps to complete these basic legal services. Corporations are also less likely to litigate cases when declining sales and profits restrict their budgets, and “growth in demand for lawyers will be constrained as businesses increasingly use large accounting firms and paralegals to perform some of the same functions that lawyers do.”10 As a result, much of the projected job growth will be “concentrated in salaried jobs as businesses and all levels of government employ a growing number of staff attorneys.” Fewer lucrative positions as associates or partners will be open, and more graduates will be forced to take lower-paying salaried positions at organizations other than legal firms and the public sector or even lower-paying contract positions. The Bureau of Labor Statistics also notes that the “number of self-employed lawyers is expected to grow slowly, reflecting the difficulty of establishing a profitable new practice in the face of competition from larger, established law firms.” And, although more lawyers may become involved in offering services as contract employees, the profitability of these services is small compared to the earnings that attorneys in independent practice or the corporate setting might make. The silver lining of this economy for the legal profession, however, is that “during recessions, for example, individuals and corporations face other legal problems, such as bankruptcies, foreclosures, and divorces—all requiring legal action.”11

Graduates with superior academic records from highly regarded law schools will have the best job opportunities. Perhaps as a result of competition for attorney positions, lawyers are increasingly finding work in less traditional areas for which legal trainings is an asset, but not normally a requirement. As in the past, some graduates may have to accept positions outside of their field of interest or for which they feel overqualified. Some recent law school graduates who have been unable to find permanent positions are turning to the growing number of temporary staffing firms that place attorneys in short-term jobs.12

The applicant growth at Texas institutions is not uniform, however; between 2000 and 2009 all nine Texas law schools experienced significant growth in the number of applications, ranging from 36 percent growth at The University of Texas at Austin to 127 percent growth at Texas Southern University. However, when application trends are looked at for the last two years worth of available data, 2007-2009, a very different trend emerges. During this period, four of the nine Texas law schools actually experienced decreases in applications while the remaining schools experienced only slight increases (see Figure 5). 21 This indicates a strong possibility that fewer students are currently interested in attending law school in Texas.

The Coordinating Board does not recommend the creation of a new law school at this time. Existing public law schools have the capacity to expand enrollments and provide greater opportunities for students from all regions of the state and across all demographic groups

here is more reading

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1887270,00.html

If anyone reads this entire post, I just want you to know that I really feel sorry for you and will keep you in my prayers...

FloMoGrad · December 7, 2010

Whats wrong with making oh 5-10 mil for going to a conference championship game, or a good bowl game. Maybe even selling out your basketball and football stadium, apperal, TV coverage. Schools are advertising with their sports team everyone wants a winner, alabama had their highest freshman applactions and admissions last year. Is it because they got a great Science school, im quite certain to say that I highly doubt it. Everything cost money but it how much you make is what matters. People need to look at PROFIT, no cost or revenue but PROFIT. When schools start losing money on sports then we can talk about our spending.

PS - From the numbers in this article, we operated in about a 6 million dollar deficit for '08-'09... That's not healthy at all...

And why are we comparing numbers with UH... They're operating budget is roughly 3 times the size of ours, and they break even seemingly year in and year out.. .Notice the 5x higher revenue from ticket sales and donations. We've seen revenues grow extremely nominal levels while spending has increased dramatically. That's called investing. Increasing our investment, knowing the returns are right around the corner.

Personally, I'd like to think all those club level seats and Luxury Suites, in addition to all the naming rights and sponsorship opportunity's give our revenue stream a significant kick to the pants, along with the additional money from Student fees which kicks in next year if I'm not mistaken. Realistically, we should see the spending deficit on our athletics program drop significantly and all but disappear by 2012-2013. This will be the point where all of our efforts start to pay off and we really see the fruits of our labors.

When trying to change the culture and perspective of an entire university, its students, faculty and alumni, people without vision tend to fail to grasp the intended movement. Regardless of what SpoogeStooge says or thinks, we are marketable and there is a desire by other conferences to gain a foothold into the D/FW metorplex. Plenty of decision makers are waiting for just a few years success in FB and we'll see the offers for upgrade come rolling in.

My friends, don't let the short sided and myopic thinking of the minority sway our efforts to drive this ship where we want to see it. Eagle up, give whatever you can to the MGC, put an arse in the seat and eagle up for some season tickets. If you fail to do any of those, shut your damn trap and get back to us when you do.

Good Day. I said Good day!

TodgeRodge · December 7, 2010

If anyone reads this entire post, I just want you to know that I really feel sorry for you and will keep you in my prayers...

yes because important topics like higher education and the long term direction of a 36K student university should be left to

+1 and :ph34r:

and no one should read a state funded study specifically dealing with law schools and the need for a new one when talking about the specific law school that prompted the study

Edited December 7, 2010 by TodgeRodge

FloMoGrad · December 7, 2010

yes not only have I seen data.....I have seen data right from the THECB.....and the US Bureau of Labor Statistics

so yes I do 100% think those that wanted to start the UNT dallas college of law are idiots

they did plenty of pre-planning and pre-studying on the law school and 100% of that came back and told them there was no need for an additional law school in Texas and especially in the dfw metromess......and they ignored 100% of that

and the THECB would not have approved the law school......but in The State of Texas if the legislators create, approve, and fund something then it becomes out of the control of the THECB as far as being approved or not

please do a quick study of legal employment now and into the future...law firms are starting to out source work to India as we speak and this will only further crush the legal hiring environment.....only the top students from the top 15 or 20 law schools still have any certain chance of getting a legal job that will pay their loans and allow them to live.....the rest are fighting for scraps.....UNT will start out as the lowest tier of law school and it will stay that way for the foreseeable future.....because it is going to be very poorly funded, it will have horrible facilities, and it is going to be located in an area that already attracts a great deal of top flight law school graduates from in and out of state

SMU has plenty of financial aid available for any QUALIFIED student.....I believe that TWU law offers 100% tuition deferral for students.....so cost is not an obstacle to legal education in Texas.....unless you are a very marginal applicant

http://www.thecb.state.tx.us/files/dmfile/IVJFeasibilityofEstablisihingaPublicLawSchool.pdf

The supply of Texas law school graduates and lawyers imported from other states appears to be more than sufficient to meet the current demand for new lawyers in Texas. There were 1,837 attorneys who passed the Texas Bar exam in 2009, and the Texas Workforce Commission projects 1,660 new lawyers will be hired per year through 2016.

Texas has fewer lawyers per 100,000 population (303) than the median of the 10 most populous states (328), although the major urban areas of Houston, Dallas/Fort Worth, and Austin exceed this median.

The number of duplicated applications to Texas law schools declined 11 percent since 2004.

While there is no standard for an ideal ratio of lawyers to population, in 2009 the Texas average of 303 lawyers per 100,000 population was lower than the average of the 10 most populous states (328). However, there is no conclusive evidence to suggest that Texas as a whole is in immediate need of more lawyers now or in the near future, although there are certainly rural areas of Texas that are underserved. Over the next five years, the number of lawyers is projected to grow at a faster rate than the increase in population.3 Since the number of law school graduates exceeds the number of projected annual job openings, this expanding workforce need is likely to be met even though the number of law school graduates in Texas is not keeping pace with population growth.

The Coordinating Board does not recommend the creation of a new law school at this time. Existing public law schools have the capacity to expand enrollments and provide greater opportunities for students from all regions of the state and across all demographic groups.

Like many other professions, the legal profession has changed drastically in the last several
years. It, too, is a casualty of the recession. Many large firms have lain off associates and even
partners, while many others have delayed making offers to newly minted lawyers. As Thomas
Morgan puts it in his 2010 The Vanishing American Lawyer, “(M)any lawyers now have doubts
about their economic future … Over 4,000 lawyers—some of them experienced partners—have
lost their positions at major American firms in 2009. Job offers to many 2009 law graduates
have been „deferred‟ to a later, unspecified date. Law firm partners have tried to keep their own
earnings steady, but as the chair of one firm put it, „We can‟t beat the donkeys any harder.‟ In
short says another writer wryly, „a law degree isn‟t necessarily a license to print money these
days.‟”
These gloomy anecdotal accounts are borne out by the United States Department of Labor‟s
Bureau of Labor Statistics. The Bureau of Labor Statistics currently projects that although there will be a 13 percent growth in the number of jobs for lawyers between 2008 and 2018, “Competition for job openings should continue to be keen because of the large number of students graduating from law school each year.”9 At the same time the number of students increases, demand is likely to decline for discretionary legal services such as planning estates, drafting wills, and handling real estate transactions due to “do it yourself” websites and publications that walk consumers through the steps to complete these basic legal services. Corporations are also less likely to litigate cases when declining sales and profits restrict their budgets, and “growth in demand for lawyers will be constrained as businesses increasingly use large accounting firms and paralegals to perform some of the same functions that lawyers do.”10 As a result, much of the projected job growth will be “concentrated in salaried jobs as businesses and all levels of government employ a growing number of staff attorneys.” Fewer lucrative positions as associates or partners will be open, and more graduates will be forced to take lower-paying salaried positions at organizations other than legal firms and the public sector or even lower-paying contract positions. The Bureau of Labor Statistics also notes that the “number of self-employed lawyers is expected to grow slowly, reflecting the difficulty of establishing a profitable new practice in the face of competition from larger, established law firms.” And, although more lawyers may become involved in offering services as contract employees, the profitability of these services is small compared to the earnings that attorneys in independent practice or the corporate setting might make. The silver lining of this economy for the legal profession, however, is that “during recessions, for example, individuals and corporations face other legal problems, such as bankruptcies, foreclosures, and divorces—all requiring legal action.”11

Graduates with superior academic records from highly regarded law schools will have the best job opportunities. Perhaps as a result of competition for attorney positions, lawyers are increasingly finding work in less traditional areas for which legal trainings is an asset, but not normally a requirement. As in the past, some graduates may have to accept positions outside of their field of interest or for which they feel overqualified. Some recent law school graduates who have been unable to find permanent positions are turning to the growing number of temporary staffing firms that place attorneys in short-term jobs.12

The applicant growth at Texas institutions is not uniform, however; between 2000 and 2009 all nine Texas law schools experienced significant growth in the number of applications, ranging from 36 percent growth at The University of Texas at Austin to 127 percent growth at Texas Southern University. However, when application trends are looked at for the last two years worth of available data, 2007-2009, a very different trend emerges. During this period, four of the nine Texas law schools actually experienced decreases in applications while the remaining schools experienced only slight increases (see Figure 5). 21 This indicates a strong possibility that fewer students are currently interested in attending law school in Texas.

The Coordinating Board does not recommend the creation of a new law school at this time. Existing public law schools have the capacity to expand enrollments and provide greater opportunities for students from all regions of the state and across all demographic groups

here is more reading

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1887270,00.html

With unemployment where it's currently at, and using your logic and style of thinking, it makes sense to close the Comp Science School, Engineering School, Business School and pretty much every other degree field as the entire workplace is flooded at this point with more qualified and willing applicants than positions. A Law School raises the status and perception of the entire University and begins to erode some of the "teachers School" and "Liberal Arts" monikers.

And if you're trying to tell me SMU's law school is accessible to anyone, you are completely clueless. Nothing could be further from the truth. Affordable, every school offers financial aid and with FAFSA, any amount of money can be borrowed to cover your costs, this doesn't make it accessible.

We also graduate more doctors than positions are available for, we should look at closing the lower tiered medical schools asap.

Outsourcing has touched every field and profession in America, but that still doesn't stand as a reason to stop producing candidates in those fields. And honestly, besides the paralegal work, do you expect to have some trainee in India handling mediation or contract negotiation, or divorce proceedings, criminal defense, or any of the other hands on, face-to-face functions necessary of a lawyer?

Some will never see the wheels of progress in motion, heads are stuck too far up their own arses... All good.

Dr. Seuss · December 7, 2010

You do realize that most athletics programs operate at a loss, right? This is especially true when direct institutional support is taken out.

I don't think you can judge the schools athletics program on profit and loss, that ignores the intangible benefits like additional exposure due to a successful program, how connected alumni feel to their university, etc.

The article talked about how mcuh colleges are spending on their athletics. I do know that some colleges operate in the red. But I was talking about the ones top tier programs that win consistently and profit. I also know that Football is the most expensive program but it also has the most opportunity to make more money back, and the NCAA tourney.

The whole point is that if you win football games not only does it make money back, its makes everything a lot more simpler

FloMoGrad · December 7, 2010

The whole point is that if you win football games not only does it make money back, its makes everything a lot more simpler

Understatement of the year, though not sure how your original post made that point. Getting out of the sunbelt is our key to profitability and long term success. One BCS game generates 16 million or so for their respective conference. Our 3 bowl game tie-ins for the Belt don't generate but maybe 2 million. It's about bowl games, tv right and deals and sold-out stadiums week in and week out. But agreed, win some games and "its makes everything a lot more simpler"

Dr. Seuss · December 7, 2010

Understatement of the year, though not sure how your original post made that point. Getting out of the sunbelt is our key to profitability and long term success. One BCS game generates 16 million or so for their respective conference. Our 3 bowl game tie-ins for the Belt don't generate but maybe 2 million. It's about bowl games, tv right and deals and sold-out stadiums week in and week out. But agreed, win some games and "its makes everything a lot more simpler"

I realize that, but my whole point is that it wont happen until we win games. Trust me I want out of the Sun Belt to but people trying to compare what UNT has is nothing in the big picture. Potential means nothing, it something that people tell you bc they feel bad and want you to get better. At the end of the day its about Wins, Fan support, and Money. Its the only way we will ever leave

Dr. Seuss · December 7, 2010

PS - From the numbers in this article, we operated in about a 6 million dollar deficit for '08-'09... That's not healthy at all...

And why are we comparing numbers with UH... They're operating budget is roughly 3 times the size of ours, and they break even seemingly year in and year out.. .Notice the 5x higher revenue from ticket sales and donations. We've seen revenues grow extremely nominal levels while spending has increased dramatically. That's called investing. Increasing our investment, knowing the returns are right around the corner.

Personally, I'd like to think all those club level seats and Luxury Suites, in addition to all the naming rights and sponsorship opportunity's give our revenue stream a significant kick to the pants, along with the additional money from Student fees which kicks in next year if I'm not mistaken. Realistically, we should see the spending deficit on our athletics program drop significantly and all but disappear by 2012-2013. This will be the point where all of our efforts start to pay off and we really see the fruits of our labors.

When trying to change the culture and perspective of an entire university, its students, faculty and alumni, people without vision tend to fail to grasp the intended movement. Regardless of what SpoogeStooge says or thinks, we are marketable and there is a desire by other conferences to gain a foothold into the D/FW metorplex. Plenty of decision makers are waiting for just a few years success in FB and we'll see the offers for upgrade come rolling in.

My friends, don't let the short sided and myopic thinking of the minority sway our efforts to drive this ship where we want to see it. Eagle up, give whatever you can to the MGC, put an arse in the seat and eagle up for some season tickets. If you fail to do any of those, shut your damn trap and get back to us when you do.

Good Day. I said Good day!

Whats wrong with making oh 5-10 mil for going to a conference championship game, or a good bowl game. Maybe even selling out your basketball and football stadium, apparel, TV coverage. Schools are advertising with their sports team everyone wants a winner, Alabama had their highest freshman application and admissions last year. Is it because they got a great Science school, im quite certain to say that I highly doubt it. Everything cost money but it how much you make is what matters. People need to look at PROFIT, no cost or revenue but PROFIT. When schools start losing money on sports then we can talk about our spending.

1) Where did I talk about UH?? The only I ever said about UH is in my original post and why are we bringing them here for the first game, why not bring in someone not as talented and have a better opportunity to get the much need first win of the season

2) I wasnt talking about UNT profit or loss at all. I was talking about TOP TIER CONFERENCES and Conference Championship games bring in anywhere from 3-10 mil, bowl games start at 300k-18 mil. For the final time if you dont win you dont make money, the more you win the more you make.

3) My whole point is not to focus on the future its to focus on what we have right now and this year. I would be shocked if CUSA or MWC call us and ask to join. After we have some winning seasons under our belt the people/ recruits will come. Then we wont ever have to be in the red again

Mean Green Matt · December 8, 2010

yes not only have I seen data.....I have seen data right from the THECB.....and the US Bureau of Labor Statistics

so yes I do 100% think those that wanted to start the UNT dallas college of law are idiots

they did plenty of pre-planning and pre-studying on the law school and 100% of that came back and told them there was no need for an additional law school in Texas and especially in the dfw metromess......and they ignored 100% of that

and the THECB would not have approved the law school......but in The State of Texas if the legislators create, approve, and fund something then it becomes out of the control of the THECB as far as being approved or not

please do a quick study of legal employment now and into the future...law firms are starting to out source work to India as we speak and this will only further crush the legal hiring environment.....only the top students from the top 15 or 20 law schools still have any certain chance of getting a legal job that will pay their loans and allow them to live.....the rest are fighting for scraps.....UNT will start out as the lowest tier of law school and it will stay that way for the foreseeable future.....because it is going to be very poorly funded, it will have horrible facilities, and it is going to be located in an area that already attracts a great deal of top flight law school graduates from in and out of state

SMU has plenty of financial aid available for any QUALIFIED student.....I believe that TWU law offers 100% tuition deferral for students.....so cost is not an obstacle to legal education in Texas.....unless you are a very marginal applicant

http://www.thecb.state.tx.us/files/dmfile/IVJFeasibilityofEstablisihingaPublicLawSchool.pdf

The supply of Texas law school graduates and lawyers imported from other states appears to be more than sufficient to meet the current demand for new lawyers in Texas. There were 1,837 attorneys who passed the Texas Bar exam in 2009, and the Texas Workforce Commission projects 1,660 new lawyers will be hired per year through 2016.

Texas has fewer lawyers per 100,000 population (303) than the median of the 10 most populous states (328), although the major urban areas of Houston, Dallas/Fort Worth, and Austin exceed this median.

The number of duplicated applications to Texas law schools declined 11 percent since 2004.

While there is no standard for an ideal ratio of lawyers to population, in 2009 the Texas average of 303 lawyers per 100,000 population was lower than the average of the 10 most populous states (328). However, there is no conclusive evidence to suggest that Texas as a whole is in immediate need of more lawyers now or in the near future, although there are certainly rural areas of Texas that are underserved. Over the next five years, the number of lawyers is projected to grow at a faster rate than the increase in population.3 Since the number of law school graduates exceeds the number of projected annual job openings, this expanding workforce need is likely to be met even though the number of law school graduates in Texas is not keeping pace with population growth.

The Coordinating Board does not recommend the creation of a new law school at this time. Existing public law schools have the capacity to expand enrollments and provide greater opportunities for students from all regions of the state and across all demographic groups.

Like many other professions, the legal profession has changed drastically in the last several
years. It, too, is a casualty of the recession. Many large firms have lain off associates and even
partners, while many others have delayed making offers to newly minted lawyers. As Thomas
Morgan puts it in his 2010 The Vanishing American Lawyer, “(M)any lawyers now have doubts
about their economic future … Over 4,000 lawyers—some of them experienced partners—have
lost their positions at major American firms in 2009. Job offers to many 2009 law graduates
have been „deferred‟ to a later, unspecified date. Law firm partners have tried to keep their own
earnings steady, but as the chair of one firm put it, „We can‟t beat the donkeys any harder.‟ In
short says another writer wryly, „a law degree isn‟t necessarily a license to print money these
days.‟”
These gloomy anecdotal accounts are borne out by the United States Department of Labor‟s
Bureau of Labor Statistics. The Bureau of Labor Statistics currently projects that although there will be a 13 percent growth in the number of jobs for lawyers between 2008 and 2018, “Competition for job openings should continue to be keen because of the large number of students graduating from law school each year.”9 At the same time the number of students increases, demand is likely to decline for discretionary legal services such as planning estates, drafting wills, and handling real estate transactions due to “do it yourself” websites and publications that walk consumers through the steps to complete these basic legal services. Corporations are also less likely to litigate cases when declining sales and profits restrict their budgets, and “growth in demand for lawyers will be constrained as businesses increasingly use large accounting firms and paralegals to perform some of the same functions that lawyers do.”10 As a result, much of the projected job growth will be “concentrated in salaried jobs as businesses and all levels of government employ a growing number of staff attorneys.” Fewer lucrative positions as associates or partners will be open, and more graduates will be forced to take lower-paying salaried positions at organizations other than legal firms and the public sector or even lower-paying contract positions. The Bureau of Labor Statistics also notes that the “number of self-employed lawyers is expected to grow slowly, reflecting the difficulty of establishing a profitable new practice in the face of competition from larger, established law firms.” And, although more lawyers may become involved in offering services as contract employees, the profitability of these services is small compared to the earnings that attorneys in independent practice or the corporate setting might make. The silver lining of this economy for the legal profession, however, is that “during recessions, for example, individuals and corporations face other legal problems, such as bankruptcies, foreclosures, and divorces—all requiring legal action.”11

Graduates with superior academic records from highly regarded law schools will have the best job opportunities. Perhaps as a result of competition for attorney positions, lawyers are increasingly finding work in less traditional areas for which legal trainings is an asset, but not normally a requirement. As in the past, some graduates may have to accept positions outside of their field of interest or for which they feel overqualified. Some recent law school graduates who have been unable to find permanent positions are turning to the growing number of temporary staffing firms that place attorneys in short-term jobs.12

The applicant growth at Texas institutions is not uniform, however; between 2000 and 2009 all nine Texas law schools experienced significant growth in the number of applications, ranging from 36 percent growth at The University of Texas at Austin to 127 percent growth at Texas Southern University. However, when application trends are looked at for the last two years worth of available data, 2007-2009, a very different trend emerges. During this period, four of the nine Texas law schools actually experienced decreases in applications while the remaining schools experienced only slight increases (see Figure 5). 21 This indicates a strong possibility that fewer students are currently interested in attending law school in Texas.

The Coordinating Board does not recommend the creation of a new law school at this time. Existing public law schools have the capacity to expand enrollments and provide greater opportunities for students from all regions of the state and across all demographic groups

here is more reading

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1887270,00.html

You do realize that bolding well over half of your post completely defeats the purpose of bolding anything right? They must not teach common sense at SMU...you know...the school you have no affiliation with at all... :ph34r:

UNT90 · December 8, 2010

yes not only have I seen data.....I have seen data right from the THECB.....and the US Bureau of Labor Statistics

so yes I do 100% think those that wanted to start the UNT dallas college of law are idiots

they did plenty of pre-planning and pre-studying on the law school and 100% of that came back and told them there was no need for an additional law school in Texas and especially in the dfw metromess......and they ignored 100% of that

and the THECB would not have approved the law school......but in The State of Texas if the legislators create, approve, and fund something then it becomes out of the control of the THECB as far as being approved or not

please do a quick study of legal employment now and into the future...law firms are starting to out source work to India as we speak and this will only further crush the legal hiring environment.....only the top students from the top 15 or 20 law schools still have any certain chance of getting a legal job that will pay their loans and allow them to live.....the rest are fighting for scraps.....UNT will start out as the lowest tier of law school and it will stay that way for the foreseeable future.....because it is going to be very poorly funded, it will have horrible facilities, and it is going to be located in an area that already attracts a great deal of top flight law school graduates from in and out of state

SMU has plenty of financial aid available for any QUALIFIED student.....I believe that TWU law offers 100% tuition deferral for students.....so cost is not an obstacle to legal education in Texas.....unless you are a very marginal applicant

http://www.thecb.sta...icLawSchool.pdf

The supply of Texas law school graduates and lawyers imported from other states appears to be more than sufficient to meet the current demand for new lawyers in Texas. There were 1,837 attorneys who passed the Texas Bar exam in 2009, and the Texas Workforce Commission projects 1,660 new lawyers will be hired per year through 2016.

Texas has fewer lawyers per 100,000 population (303) than the median of the 10 most populous states (328), although the major urban areas of Houston, Dallas/Fort Worth, and Austin exceed this median.

The number of duplicated applications to Texas law schools declined 11 percent since 2004.

While there is no standard for an ideal ratio of lawyers to population, in 2009 the Texas average of 303 lawyers per 100,000 population was lower than the average of the 10 most populous states (328). However, there is no conclusive evidence to suggest that Texas as a whole is in immediate need of more lawyers now or in the near future, although there are certainly rural areas of Texas that are underserved. Over the next five years, the number of lawyers is projected to grow at a faster rate than the increase in population.3 Since the number of law school graduates exceeds the number of projected annual job openings, this expanding workforce need is likely to be met even though the number of law school graduates in Texas is not keeping pace with population growth.

The Coordinating Board does not recommend the creation of a new law school at this time. Existing public law schools have the capacity to expand enrollments and provide greater opportunities for students from all regions of the state and across all demographic groups.

Like many other professions, the legal profession has changed drastically in the last several
years. It, too, is a casualty of the recession. Many large firms have lain off associates and even
partners, while many others have delayed making offers to newly minted lawyers. As Thomas
Morgan puts it in his 2010 The Vanishing American Lawyer, "(M)any lawyers now have doubts
about their economic future … Over 4,000 lawyers—some of them experienced partners—have
lost their positions at major American firms in 2009. Job offers to many 2009 law graduates
have been „deferred‟ to a later, unspecified date. Law firm partners have tried to keep their own
earnings steady, but as the chair of one firm put it, „We can‟t beat the donkeys any harder.‟ In
short says another writer wryly, „a law degree isn‟t necessarily a license to print money these
days.‟"
These gloomy anecdotal accounts are borne out by the United States Department of Labor‟s
Bureau of Labor Statistics. The Bureau of Labor Statistics currently projects that although there will be a 13 percent growth in the number of jobs for lawyers between 2008 and 2018, "Competition for job openings should continue to be keen because of the large number of students graduating from law school each year."9 At the same time the number of students increases, demand is likely to decline for discretionary legal services such as planning estates, drafting wills, and handling real estate transactions due to "do it yourself" websites and publications that walk consumers through the steps to complete these basic legal services. Corporations are also less likely to litigate cases when declining sales and profits restrict their budgets, and "growth in demand for lawyers will be constrained as businesses increasingly use large accounting firms and paralegals to perform some of the same functions that lawyers do."10 As a result, much of the projected job growth will be "concentrated in salaried jobs as businesses and all levels of government employ a growing number of staff attorneys." Fewer lucrative positions as associates or partners will be open, and more graduates will be forced to take lower-paying salaried positions at organizations other than legal firms and the public sector or even lower-paying contract positions. The Bureau of Labor Statistics also notes that the "number of self-employed lawyers is expected to grow slowly, reflecting the difficulty of establishing a profitable new practice in the face of competition from larger, established law firms." And, although more lawyers may become involved in offering services as contract employees, the profitability of these services is small compared to the earnings that attorneys in independent practice or the corporate setting might make. The silver lining of this economy for the legal profession, however, is that "during recessions, for example, individuals and corporations face other legal problems, such as bankruptcies, foreclosures, and divorces—all requiring legal action."11

Graduates with superior academic records from highly regarded law schools will have the best job opportunities. Perhaps as a result of competition for attorney positions, lawyers are increasingly finding work in less traditional areas for which legal trainings is an asset, but not normally a requirement. As in the past, some graduates may have to accept positions outside of their field of interest or for which they feel overqualified. Some recent law school graduates who have been unable to find permanent positions are turning to the growing number of temporary staffing firms that place attorneys in short-term jobs.12

The applicant growth at Texas institutions is not uniform, however; between 2000 and 2009 all nine Texas law schools experienced significant growth in the number of applications, ranging from 36 percent growth at The University of Texas at Austin to 127 percent growth at Texas Southern University. However, when application trends are looked at for the last two years worth of available data, 2007-2009, a very different trend emerges. During this period, four of the nine Texas law schools actually experienced decreases in applications while the remaining schools experienced only slight increases (see Figure 5). 21 This indicates a strong possibility that fewer students are currently interested in attending law school in Texas.

The Coordinating Board does not recommend the creation of a new law school at this time. Existing public law schools have the capacity to expand enrollments and provide greater opportunities for students from all regions of the state and across all demographic groups

here is more reading

http://www.time.com/...1887270,00.html

That's all well and good, but you forgot this very, very important piece of research.

PlummMeanGreen · December 8, 2010

I realize that, but my whole point is that it wont happen until we win games. Trust me I want out of the Sun Belt to but people trying to compare what UNT has is nothing in the big picture. Potential means nothing, it something that people tell you bc they feel bad and want you to get better. At the end of the day its about Wins, Fan support, and Money. Its the only way we will ever leave

I think UNT consultant Chuck Neinas would disagree with you on your Big Picture philosophy.

For instance, when a university closing in on 40,000 students reaches its potential wouldn't it be much more impressive when that translates to much larger attendance numbers overall, ie, butts in seats, than when a school with around 7,000 undergraduate students reaches their potential?

We have wasted many years at UNT due to poor leadership that just didn't get it when it came to NCAA intercollegiate athletics. Most of those presidents preceeded the late UNT Prez' Dr. Norval Pohl, too, and we all know who they were.

In my minds eye, we are still about 25 years behind where we could have been with all this. Can you imagine if we had a president with a new stadium vision 25 years ago where this program could be today in light of what response we are already seeing from our new football palace which is not even completed yet?

GMG!

Dr. Seuss · December 8, 2010

I think UNT consultant Chuck Neinas would disagree with you on your Big Picture philosophy.

For instance, when a university closing in on 40,000 students reaches its potential wouldn't it be much more impressive when that translates to much larger attendance numbers overall, ie, butts in seats, than when a school with around 7,000 undergraduate students reaches their potential?

We have wasted many years at UNT due to poor leadership that just didn't get it when it came to NCAA intercollegiate athletics. Most of those presidents preceeded the late UNT Prez' Dr. Norval Pohl, too, and we all know who they were.

In my minds eye, we are still about 25 years behind where we could have been with all this. Can you imagine if we had a president with a new stadium vision 25 years ago where this program could be today in light of what response we are already seeing from our new football palace which is not even completed yet?

GMG!

Well a lot of people disagree with you too Mr. Prince of Darkness

There're 36000 students and 28k are undergrad and maybe 15-20k live in denton. How many of the Cool Beans, Rips or Lous people go out to North Texas Football games?? Just because their are 28k undergrads doesnt mean that even half will go. I hope so, they need to come out and support their school.

Basically I do agree with you on one point, we have over 100 years of athlethics but only the last 10 mean anything(besides the great hayden fry era). We are a old school with a new tradition that is translating away from NTSTC and into a true NORTH TEXAS Unveristy!!!

GMG

Aquila_Viridis · December 8, 2010

I really disagree that the path to a better conference is winning in a poor conference. The path to a better conference is a compelling economic proposition. Fortunately UNT is uniquely situated to altogether change the economic proposition it can offer JUST by being in a better conference. It is a rare synergy; someone eventually will notice it.

UNT faces three principal obstacles:

- an internal one that is a long-standing faction that wants UNT perceived as a tiny arts school, a vision totally at odds with reality and the needs of the state

- billions of extra dollars heaped on UT and AM systems, one of the biggest travesties ever and I can't believe no one talks about it

- fearful and desperate nearby private institutions and their supporters that lobby along with UT and AM to make sure that state money does not come North (except to UTA and UTD - there's your @#$%^&* UTD endowment, *&^%$#). You all up there are being robbed and so are the rest of us since now a student has to be in top 8% to get into UT-Austin and we don't have other similarly respected state institutions as alternatives. You ought to start writing in your papers and to your congressmen and tell your friends and neighbors to demand change, all the time, until it happens. See how many of your UT buddies think their kids are gonna get into UT.

FirefightnRick · December 8, 2010

, we have over 100 years of athlethics but only the last 10 mean anything(besides the great hayden fry era).

Don't forget many of us, including the very man who owns and has run this website the past 14 years learned to be Mean Green during the 1-AA Corky years.

Rick

stebo · December 8, 2010

Dr. Seuss,

I am just curious. What is your major? I really hope it is not English or NT is in BIG trouble

Just playing around... seriously, glad to have you as a new fan. The best way out of the Belt is a combination of winning and our potential. The WAC has now invited us 3 times. 1 of those invites was made when Fresno, Hawaii, and Nevada were still in the league. Another invite came while Boise was still committed to the WAC. We are an attractive school with lots of "potential" - with wins and full stands, we will be unstoppable. It all comes in Baby Steps. The Belt was actually a step down from the Big West in terms of competitive football. Those BW teams were salty and rarely lost their bowl. The Belt is always going to be held back by some of the poor schools. As long as the Belt has member schools like ULM, with their run down stadium, $8 million dollar budget, and $160K coach - the Belt will always be perceived as a Southern MAC. North Texas, FAU, FIU, MTSU - we are all upping the ante and those dollars will eventually pay off.

I keep seeing comments about NT finally making the commitment that it should have years ago (with a big hire like Coach Mac) - well, the student fee will be paying for our new Coach. RV has tried several times to get the fee in place. It's not like we haven't tried - the interest has just been low. I really wish that I could take you back to 1996-2000.. heck, even into the first couple of bowl years of 2001 and 2002... we have come a LONG way. Tailgating did not exist, it was actually illegal to drink in the parking lot before games before RV got here. There was a small group from this very message board that actually brought BACK the Mean Green Club. The fund raising arm of the Athletic Department was called the Mean Green Club in the 70's but like most things at NT - some jackhole came along and wanted to change it and make it more "current"... That lack of tradition has really hurt the school over the years. Our program had the NT Foundation as a fundraising arm but the school would not share alumni names with the program because they didn't want anyone to divert funding to the athletic department (from the academic side). We were the Eagles, then the Mean Green, then the Mean Green Eagles, then we went back to Mean Green. We have changed our school name three times in my lifetime - I am sure that there are posters on this board that have seen the school name change a 4th time.

All that being said - you are in the right place at the right time. I can remember standing in the rain during a Big West game with about 30 fans and the band. We were lucky to get a couple thousand to a game. There was one year where a couple of the fans/donors and I stood on the Mean Green Club Deck and looked out over a crowd of less than 1,000. We actually counted the people and I am too embarrased to post the amount. The deck was about 1/5th the size back then - I think that the capacity was about 150. It was like a deck that you would build onto the back of your house. Ben E Keith has renovated and expanded it over the years but it started out as a donor deck with free beer. I was able to be on it because I was a radio sponsor for my bar during those years - it was the best deal in the world. I think that I paid about $1200 bucks a year and was treated like royalty. Not only did I have a radio commercial during every sporting event (played over and over) - the department threw in tickets to various events, deck time, press box passes, field passes, and I even got to travel with the team for some road games. THAT is where we were a decade ago. We have come a LONG way. We have a long way to go; but to understand how proud some of us are (re: the crowds, tailgating, and current fan support) - and not confuse that pride with being content - you just had to be there.

Hopefully you will have your own stories someday. I hope that you are still cheering for the Mean Green and I sincerely hope that you will be explaining to some new Freshman or Sophomore how things were SOOOO much different when you were in college. And they will give you a reply - very similar to the one that you will post after you read this - with their recipe for the next level. Just smile and encourage them to "keep it up" - we need all the fans that we can get, now and 10 years from now

Edited December 8, 2010 by stebo