Unt Baseball

[TheColonyEagle]

But how much money would it take to start a program? Anyone know?

Also, how close did we get a few years ago when we almost partnered with the semi-pro team?

[ColoradoEagle]

After building a $7-10m ballpark, it's basically like adding another basketball team.

[Eastwood Eagle]

I dream of the day we have baseball...

[McKinneyMiner]

After building a $7-10m ballpark, it's basically like adding another basketball team.

In terms of student athletes it would be more like adding 2+ basketball teams...

Rice has 35 players on their baseball roster...

[ColoradoEagle]

In terms of student athletes it would be more like adding 2+ basketball teams...

Rice has 35 players on their baseball roster...

The maximum number of scholarships for college baseball is 11.7. For basketball, it's 13. The coaching staff is about the same size, but how much they cost obviously depends.

[OldTimer]

But how much money would it take to start a program? Anyone know?

Also, how close did we get a years ago when we almost partnered with the semi-pro team?

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When I was VP at El Paso CC about 10 years ago, they added a baseball program...spent $350,000 in one year not counting coaches salary.

[McKinneyMiner]

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When I was VP at El Paso CC about 10 years ago, they added a baseball program...spent $350,000 in one year not counting coaches salary.

Bob Stull told me that the experience EPCC had with starting the baseball program, and Title IX, is why UTEP will never add baseball back...

I remember the first year of EPCC baseball where the players were doing some construction and maintenance on the field...

For 99% of all colleges and universities, baseball is a financial anchor...

[McKinneyMiner]

The maximum number of scholarships for college baseball is 11.7. For basketball, it's 13. The coaching staff is about the same size, but how much they cost obviously depends.

I wasn't sure about the scholarships, but the team needs to be equipped for a full roster...

Most D1 baseball programs carry between 20-35 players on the team...

And what about insurance...??

What would the university's liability be for the players that are not on scholarship...??

I'm not being snide, I really don't know the answer...

[oldguystudent]

We've been crunching a lot of numbers out west because Cal announced that it is dropping baseball after this coming season. The numbers that keep popping up are around $1.2 million of present day dollars to keep the program running. A Sun Belt baseball coach probably isn't making much over $175,000 if that. Baseball coaches don't make as much as football or basketball by a long shot. LSU is far and away the highest funded baseball program in the nation, and their head coach, Paul Mainieri, makes $625,000. The prominent coaches in the Big West are pushing not quite $300,000. So you've got 11.7 scholarships and travel as pretty much the only expenses. Probably costs less than basketball, all things told.

[McKinneyMiner]

Probably costs less than basketball, all things told.

It probably does, but it also brings in pretty much zero revenue...

[NT80]

We've been crunching a lot of numbers out west because Cal announced that it is dropping baseball after this coming season. The numbers that keep popping up are around $1.2 million of present day dollars to keep the program running. A Sun Belt baseball coach probably isn't making much over $175,000 if that. Baseball coaches don't make as much as football or basketball by a long shot. LSU is far and away the highest funded baseball program in the nation, and their head coach, Paul Mainieri, makes $625,000. The prominent coaches in the Big West are pushing not quite $300,000. So you've got 11.7 scholarships and travel as pretty much the only expenses. Probably costs less than basketball, all things told.

I would like to see baseball added next, even at the expense of perhaps dropping some other men's sports to make it happen. The Sunbelt has a quality baseball league.

A facility is a big startup cost, but we have the land. I'm sure travel, ships, salaries, facility upkeep and equipment make up the bulk of expense. Texas is a good recruiting area for baseball. Title IX would also be an issue, thus the need to take men's ships from other areas.

If UTA and Dallas Baptist can afford it why not UNT?

Edited December 2, 2010 by NT80

[UNTcrazy727]

I would like to see baseball added next, even at the expense of perhaps dropping some other men's sports to make it happen. The Sunbelt has a quality baseball league.

A facility is a big startup cost, but we have the land. I'm sure travel, ships, salaries, facility upkeep and equipment make up the bulk of expense. Texas is a good recruiting area for baseball. Title IX would also be an issue, thus the need to take men's ships from other areas.

If UTA and Dallas Baptist can afford it why not UNT?

Might have something to do with the fact they don't field a football team.

But I'd be willing to bet we'll have some baseball being played in Denton in about 5 years. (Fingers crossed)

[NT80]

Might have something to do with the fact they don't field a football team.

But I'd be willing to bet we'll have some baseball being played in Denton in about 5 years. (Fingers crossed)

OK, then how can these schools fund baseball? (notice any school missing here?)

2011 STANDINGS Sun Belt

Win Sun Belt Loss Sun Belt % Games Back Overall Win Overall Loss Overall % Last 10 Streak Next Game

Arkansas State 0 0 0.000 -- 0 0 0.000 0-0

at Auburn (2/18)

Arkansas-Little Rock 0 0 0.000 -- 0 0 0.000 0-0

at Stephen F. Austin (2/18)

Florida Atlantic 0 0 0.000 -- 0 0 0.000 0-0

Hofstra (2/18)

Florida International 0 0 0.000 -- 0 0 0.000 0-0

Southeastern Louisiana (2/18)

Louisiana-Lafayette 0 0 0.000 -- 0 0 0.000 0-0

Southeast Missouri State (2/18)

Louisiana-Monroe 0 0 0.000 -- 0 0 0.000 0-0

UTSA (2/18)

Middle Tennessee State 0 0 0.000 -- 0 0 0.000 0-0

Portland (2/18)

South Alabama 0 0 0.000 -- 0 0 0.000 0-0

Tennessee-Martin (2/18)

Troy 0 0 0.000 -- 0 0 0.000 0-0

High Point (2/18)

Western Kentucky

[GrandGreen]

I would like to see baseball added next, even at the expense of perhaps dropping some other men's sports to make it happen. The Sunbelt has a quality baseball league.

A facility is a big startup cost, but we have the land. I'm sure travel, ships, salaries, facility upkeep and equipment make up the bulk of expense. Texas is a good recruiting area for baseball. Title IX would also be an issue, thus the need to take men's ships from other areas.

If UTA and Dallas Baptist can afford it why not UNT?

Unless you want to drop football or basketball you are not going to fund baseball with those savings. The track program can't be dropped because in NCAA numbers you would be dropping three sports which would put NT below the required minimum of 16 sports. Golf with 4 ships would not fund much and you would be eliminating our historically best program as well as the best now. Last I heard Dallas Baptist and UTA didn't have football teams, but there are plenty of schools that do that manage to have a baseball team.

RV has consistently stated he wants a baseball program so it will probably happen. He has also stated that NT is in such good shape with Title Nine that he would not have to add a woman's sport. But I for one would like to get all our current sports up to a highly performing standard before that is addressed. I think we are getting there with most teams performing at a high Belt level. I think football is poised to turn the corner and new coaching hires in track may help there. Note, track is not a bad program just not one of the top ones in the Belt. WBB is the most down program right now but I don't think that a function of resources.

[NT80]

Unless you want to drop football or basketball you are not going to fund baseball with those savings. The track program can't be dropped because in NCAA numbers you would be dropping three sports which would put NT below the required minimum of 16 sports. Golf with 4 ships would not fund much and you would be eliminating our historically best program as well as the best now. Last I heard Dallas Baptist and UTA didn't have football teams, but there are plenty of schools that do that manage to have a baseball team.

See my above post with 9 football-playing SBC members able to also have baseball. Are they all in non-compliance with Title IX? I didn't research their sports offerings but I believe most are similar to UNT's.

[Mean Green Matt]

After years and years of near perfect Title IX compliance, it's time we just add baseball and not worry about Title IX (assuming we had the start up money available). After baseball I would like to see men's soccer, but at that point we would probably need to add a women's sport with it. Arkansas State has women's bowling...I can't imagine that is all that expensive to start up.

Edited December 2, 2010 by Mean Green Matt

[Green Mean]

I don't think the issue is actually starting a program...from the RV podcast a few weeks ago he said that if we are going to do it....we are going to do it right. So rather than doing it half assly I think RV is going to make sure all of the ducks are in a row as far as money etc and w hen they are ready to go, the new stadium and all the added facilities they need will be built and brought in as well. The stadium is done, the upgraded FB HC salary is done, the athletics fee going into effect next year is done....really the next will be baseball. Only way I see Baseball getting delayed is if RV decides to maybe renovate/improve the Super Pit and significantly raise JJ's salary so he doesn't leave. Other than that I think the only thing we need is patience as I see baseball coming in the next 3-5 years.

[ColoradoEagle]

I don't think the issue is actually starting a program...from the RV podcast a few weeks ago he said that if we are going to do it....we are going to do it right.

I'm glad to hear that. A few years ago it looked like we were just looking to do it, including a drawing of one of the worst ballparks I've ever seen.

[NT80]

I don't think the issue is actually starting a program...from the RV podcast a few weeks ago he said that if we are going to do it....we are going to do it right. So rather than doing it half assly I think RV is going to make sure all of the ducks are in a row as far as money etc and w hen they are ready to go, the new stadium and all the added facilities they need will be built and brought in as well. The stadium is done, the upgraded FB HC salary is done, the athletics fee going into effect next year is done....really the next will be baseball. Only way I see Baseball getting delayed is if RV decides to maybe renovate/improve the Super Pit and significantly raise JJ's salary so he doesn't leave. Other than that I think the only thing we need is patience as I see baseball coming in the next 3-5 years.

I agree with this. RV has done everything he has built first class, I can wait for baseball because I know he'll do it right.

[oldguystudent]

from the RV podcast a few weeks ago he said that if we are going to do it....we are going to do it right.

Baseball is a sport in which that is actually possible. Oregon kicked the crap out of baseball last year in only its second season. It takes facilities and a coach who knows what the hell he's doing. Oregon hired George Horton, who would be waaaaay out of UNT's price range, but then UAB got Ron Polk, legendary Miss St. coach for FREE! In this area of the country, there is a shite ton of talent in both players and coaches, and a lot of the older coaches will work for next to nothing just to keep themselves on the field and active.

It's also pretty easy to build an immediate OOC schedule that ramps up RPI. Here, series and/or weekday games against Texas, TCU, Arkansas, Baylor, LSU, Oklahoma, Oklahoma St., Dallas Baptist, Oral Roberts, Southern Miss, A&M would all be really easy to set up. For some of those (except LSU who NEVER leaves home for OOC games), with adequate facilities in Denton, a home and home is by no means out of the equation. TCU would probably do a four game home and home weekday series no problem..

And let me tell you, I've been to several Big XII and SEC schools for baseball, and they are an experience. Smaller scale than football, but much more knowledgeable and less douchey fanbases. Even TCU, with a much smaller joint than the big boys, is a fun way to spend a weekend. I recommend checking out the series against Fullerton this spring to get a feel for college ball. That will match two national powers against each other in an early season weekend series that will have big RPI implications come selection time.

Edit: The big six conferences in baseball are SEC (far and away the biggest, baddest, most funded conference in baseball), and in not particular order, PAC-10, Big XII, Big West, ACC and CUSA. The Sun Belt is #7, although having seen a couple belt teams play down in Baylor, my honest assessment is that there is a significant talent drop-off at present. However, look at the geography of those schools and think of the opportunity for UNT to take on all comers and make something of itself quickly.

Edited December 2, 2010 by oldguystudent

[oldguystudent]

Oh, and just a general primer for those who may not be too familiar with college baseball:

Baseball typically runs four games a week. There are three-game weekend series, which like football, typically start OOC or in tournaments early in the season, and against conference teams later in the season. The fourth game is a mid-week game, usually on Tuesday, that is ALWAYS considered OOC even if the teams are in the same conference.

Really good teams have three legit starts with #1 going on Friday night through #3 on Sunday. Mediocre teams start running into depth problems on Sunday. If you look at box scores, this is why you'll see Friday games coming in at 6-5 with Sunday games at 22-15.

There really isn't such a thing as a Tuesday starter. You'll typically see a lot of experimentation going on with feeling out new pitchers for future potential and putting in younger position players. These games do count come selection Sunday and they do count for RPI, but for teams who know they're going to the post season (pretty much winning teams from the big six), these games are opportunity for younger players to get much needed experience should their services be required in the post season.

Some conferences have a tournament and some don't. The Sun Belt does with the winner receiving the auto-bid to the post season. Unlike basketball, though, the Sun Belt got three bids to the tournament last year, so a random throw of the dice is not nearly as likely to destroy the body of work over a great regular season.

College ball uses metal bats. Many were accusing certain SEC and Big XII schools of "rolling" composite bats to make them perform better. If you were to watch SEC games over the past several years, it looked more like a session at the driving range than a baseball game. Safety concerns have led to new bat standards beginning this year. While the bats are still metal, they are designed to perform like wood. Reports from fall practice are that home runs are waaaay down. We speculate a new era of small ball in college baseball with an eventual move to wood bats once and for all (although bat manufacturer endorsement checks going directly into coaches' pockets slow this considerably).

That's all I can think of right now for the basics. Any questions?

Edit: The regular season has a uniform start date in the middle of February now (southern schools used to start in January). The regular season is 56 games long with two exceptions. If you play an inter-team scrimmage in the fall, it counts against your game limit. On the other hand, if you make a road trip to play Hawaii, you can play up to four games that don't count against the limit, thereby raising your regular season game limit to 60 games.

The post season is 64 teams divided into 16 regionals of four teams each. The four teams play a double elimination format tournament until one team is left standing. Then, the regional winners are paired up in super-regionals (the sweet 16). They play a best 2 out of 3 series with the winner advancing to the world series in Omaha. Omaha is split into two 4-team brackets that play a double elimination format. The winner of each bracket meet in the championship for a best 2 of 3 series to declare the champion. Up until Omaha, all post season games are hosted on campus. The #1 seeds in the regionals typically host. Among those there are 8 national seeds. They typically host the super-regionals, assuming they make it through their regional.

Edited December 2, 2010 by oldguystudent

[TheTastyGreek]

Your college baseball knowledge intrigues me, and I would like to someday subscribe to your newsletter.

Also, when we do get our team going here... I think you will have to come back and explain all that again. It's the law. On the internet. If you don't, you hate North Texas.

[oldguystudent]

Your college baseball knowledge intrigues me, and I would like to someday subscribe to your newsletter.

Also, when we do get our team going here... I think you will have to come back and explain all that again. It's the law. On the internet. If you don't, you hate North Texas.

Some useful sites to whet your appetite:

Boyd's World -- College baseball stat heaven run by Boyd Nation, a Miss St. alum, and the source of my data for my stats presentation in 2009.

Rivals -- National coverage of college baseball run by Austin resident (And I believe A&M alum) Kendall Rogers. Very active message board consisting mostly of west coast player parents and hard core SEC fans.

College Baseball Today -- Very quirky blog with national coverage by a somewhat insane, borderline alcoholic guy named Eric Sorenson who literally grew up in the stands of Rosenblatt Stadium in Omaha because his parents didn't want to deal with him, so they'd drop him off there every day for two weeks each year. Some of the best photos and analysis of the game available anywhere.

D1Baseball -- The motherload. Current scores, standings, schedules, rankings, and historical information for everything in the universe related to college baseball. It's updated live during the season. It's run by one guy. I'll try to look up his name to give due credit as it escapes me right now.

At present, the college baseball community is pretty small and close-knit. All of the guys above cooperate with each other in providing the best, up-to-date information. They're all easily accessible online and in person.

Another great facet of college baseball is that it's super easy to get face-to-face conversations with legendary coaches. Imagine being able to just walk up to Nick Saban after a game and asking if he wants to go grab a beer. Yeah, that's what college baseball is like. The coaching fraternity has a lot of great coaches with common ancestry, so even when they're bitter rivals on the field, they're very close friends off the field. A big one started with Augie Garrido of Texas who begat George Horton of Oregon who begat Dave Serrano of Fullerton who is friends with Mike Gillespie who came up under Rod Dedeaux. All of these guys will look back to Wally Kincaid of Cerritos College as the patriarch of it all. There's a whole crop of current assistants under these guys waiting to take the reigns.

[flyonthewall]

Hmmmmm. Scattershooting at 2:30 in the morning wondering how much I paid to get this dissertation posted to the interweb......... Dec. 2nd, 11:02 a.m. We need to sell something for gosh sakes........

[oldguystudent]

Hmmmmm. Scattershooting at 2:30 in the morning wondering how much I paid to get this dissertation posted to the interweb......... Dec. 2nd, 11:02 a.m. We need to sell something for gosh sakes........

Just getting the fan base at large excited about the future of UNT athletics, sir.