Texas Arlington (11/30/10)

UNT90 · December 1, 2010

Criticize away, but keep a sense of perspective and acknowledge that where it ultimately matters, we're doing brilliantly.

I think we all know this is a good team, but we want them to be better. Such is the nature of fandom, especially in the message board world.

The scary thing is the lack of depth now throughout the roster. If, god forbid, Hogans or George goes down, there is no one right now that can fill their shoes.

And basketball tip 101 for the board. When a team plays a 2-3 defense against you, put one post high and the other low on the opposite side. Impossible to cover both. So frustrating to NEVER see this happen with this team.

Edited December 1, 2010 by UNT90

TheTastyGreek · December 2, 2010

I think we all know this is a good team, but we want them to be better. Such is the nature of fandom, especially in the message board world.

+1.

Last year, that wasn't the vibe I felt from a lot of the criticism we saw on the forum. But since the end of year streak started and we got the NCAA bid that sort of validated the first one as "earned"... I think that what your saying has become the general tone here.

Nothing wrong with wanting better. Wanting better is what makes you better. But, at least now 90-95% of the people here are really acknowledging that "better" is going to be better than pretty damn good.

The sky is falling crowd seems to have largely come around. When people are trying to figure out how to build the tower higher instead of patrolling for chunks of falling sky, that's awesome.

McKinneyMiner · December 2, 2010

I guess JJ is following the Dean Smith model - which Roy Williams might do to an even larger degree than his mentor. The Dean was FAMOUS for saving TO's till the end of game situation.

Don Haskins at UTEP hung onto his timeouts as well...

In fact, if his team needed a breather or a shake-up he would sometimes argue with the refs for a while and try and get a technical so he could gather his team together during the hub bub...

I have seen his star pupil, Tim Floyd, do it to a much lesser degree this season...

You don't see that much anymore...

Andrew · December 2, 2010

Because arguably four of our five best players are the guards, and one of them already starts on the bench?

Because Tristan and Josh and George have already spent most of their recent careers here averaging 30+ mpg and, at least for the time being, subbing them out isn't really a worry unless we have foul trouble?

Because Hogans is elevating himself to double balls status (currently he is the balls-and-a-half, with each game that he shows improved scoring touch pushing him closer to that elite double balls ranking)?

It seems to me that we're 5-1 and our only loss came to a contender for an NCAA 1 seed, and we don't really need to go tinkering too much at all with what we're doing. I'd like to get the guys a little more rest, but if we need them on the floor to win, we have to keep putting them out and leaving them there.

Here's a better question: How about we just enjoy yet another strong start to what looks like yet another strong year, and quit trying to be nit pick superfans that refuse to appreciate the success that's happening?

If JJ gets a new job after the season, send in your resume and tell them how you'll coach your ass off. Shanice had a binder, a baby, and a winning smile, and it got her a coaching job here. I wouldn't completely write off your chances.

Our best players are guards? Shorter and White are sadly over rated and never consistent. Now George and Tristan they lead our team.... Dom is a better point then Josh and will always be. Josh is not aggressive enough and is getting to slow.

-- Yes, we still have a good team and should have at least ten wins before we start conference ball, but anyone who knows anything about basketball would tell you we need depth and a bench and any team that has starters playing 30 minutes night in night out with 7 man rotation will lose... I believe you sir need some research to do, I do not know much about football... but basketball that is my sport research it Kansas, Duke Uconn, any top team throughout time... play up to ten players and no one avegrages 30 minutes by this point not until its game time in the playoffs

TheTastyGreek · December 2, 2010

Our best players are guards? Shorter and White are sadly over rated and never consistent. Now George and Tristan they lead our team.... Dom is a better point then Josh and will always be. Josh is not aggressive enough and is getting to slow.

-- Yes, we still have a good team and should have at least ten wins before we start conference ball, but anyone who knows anything about basketball would tell you we need depth and a bench and any team that has starters playing 30 minutes night in night out with 7 man rotation will lose... I believe you sir need some research to do, I do not know much about football... but basketball that is my sport research it Kansas, Duke Uconn, any top team throughout time... play up to ten players and no one avegrages 30 minutes by this point not until its game time in the playoffs

John Chaney says a 7 man rotation and a slate of starters averaging 30+ through the season can work out just fine. Just fine.

Andrew · December 2, 2010

Skiver, welcom to the board . I hate that you had to learn the hard way that criticizing anything JJ does is a no no on this board. He can do absolutely no wrong here. Lesson learned.

And I love that we are 5-1 as well and hope we continue to improve.

Rick

It was not criticizing but more an opinion/ suggestion. How many team honestly run a 6 man lineup playing 35 minutes with starters and are sucesful in the post season or even make it to the post season? Look on espn and find Kansas stats.. see what their starts are averaging at this point. Yes... they will play more as season progresses but not for many weeks to months to come. By then our legs will be dead and our depth will drop off because Holmon or Edwards will not have experience riding the bench. We need to play them early and often during non-conference games especially when we are up 20 and sit are starters. As for the lineup. Dom shorter and Hogans makes perfect sense off the bench. A lot of teams still dont start their top 5 right?

CMJ · December 2, 2010

Our best players are guards? Shorter and White are sadly over rated and never consistent. Now George and Tristan they lead our team.... Dom is a better point then Josh and will always be. Josh is not aggressive enough and is getting to slow.

-- Yes, we still have a good team and should have at least ten wins before we start conference ball, but anyone who knows anything about basketball would tell you we need depth and a bench and any team that has starters playing 30 minutes night in night out with 7 man rotation will lose... I believe you sir need some research to do, I do not know much about football... but basketball that is my sport research it Kansas, Duke Uconn, any top team throughout time... play up to ten players and no one avegrages 30 minutes by this point not until its game time in the playoffs

Ummm...there have been many recent years in where Coach K had a very short bench. It's actually one of the things that probably hurt him come March, but nonetheless.

White may not be our "best" player -- but there's no one more clutch than him. He has double the big time plays in his career than TT or Odufuwa put together.

Andrew · December 2, 2010

Our players just already look sluggish and having two games rest playing those minutes and then jumping into grambling wont be good. I am not saying we will lose, or even only win by say 15 points. But it will take its toll.

Andrew · December 2, 2010

Ummm...there have been many recent years in where Coach K had a very short bench. It's actually one of the things that probably hurt him come March, but nonetheless.

White may not be our "best" player -- but there's no one more clutch than him. He has double the big time plays in his career than TT or Odufuwa put together.

Yes possibly clutch though I rather have the ball in Thompsons hands at the end of a game.

CMJ · December 2, 2010

Yes possibly clutch though I rather have the ball in Thompsons hands at the end of a game.

Oh hell no.

It's kinda like our team from four years ago. Calvin Watson might have been the "better" player (but that's up for debate)...but I wanted Kendrick Davis to have the ball at the end of the game.

Andrew · December 2, 2010

Oh hell no.

It's kinda like our team from four years ago. Calvin Watson might have been the "better" player (but that's up for debate)...but I wanted Kendrick Davis to have the ball at the end of the game.

Josh is not aggressive enough and will end up getting blocked... Yes he is great player! BUT far overrated... You will see Tristan or George getting offers when they are done and Josh will be lucky to play overseas. You will see

emmitt01 · December 2, 2010

Yes possibly clutch though I rather have the ball in Thompsons hands at the end of a game.

Ummm NO.

Youll find no bigger TT fan than me but I want the ball in his hands from opening tip til about the 1:20 mark. Then I want the ball in Josh's hands.

TheTastyGreek · December 2, 2010

I believe you sir need some research to do...

Kansas, Duke Uconn, any top team throughout time... play up to ten players and no one avegrages 30 minutes by this point not until its game time in the playoffs

Last year, Duke and Butler met in the finals. Duke had three guys average more than 35.5 minutes per game last year through a 40 game season (Nolan Smith only played 38). Fatigue didn't stop them from winning the national championship. Butler had four guys average over 30 minutes per game playing 37 or 38 games apiece. Butler only had 8 guys total average more than 5.6 minutes per game.

The last time Kansas won a national championship was 2008. They had 8 guys average more than 10 minutes per game. I don't know where you get that they had a 10 man bench... Only 10 guys even made appearances in at least 75% of their games.

Uconn's last national championship came in 2004. If you take out Marcus Williams, who was suspended for much of the year and only saw action in 16 out of 39 games... They had exactly seven guys play more than 10 minutes per game. Three of their starters averaged over 30 minutes per game.

Who else should I research? Did you mention any other top teams that I missed?

CMJ · December 2, 2010

Josh is not aggressive enough and will end up getting blocked... Yes he is great player! BUT far overrated... You will see Tristan or George getting offers when they are done and Josh will be lucky to play overseas. You will see

I don't care about pro potential? As a college player Josh is a first ballot HOF'er at NT. I am sure Tristan gets in, but not sure it'll be his first year eligible. Josh will almost certainly. I've followed this program for some years now, and I'd say he's one of the best 4-5 I've ever seen. Obviously I don't back as far as those that saw the Blakeley or MVC days, but still..I go back 20 some odd years!

I mean Brandon Kennedy was our best football player in the early 2000's. I don't care if he never played in the NFL and we had other guys that did. Pro success has nothing to do with how good a guy is in college.

Edited December 2, 2010 by CMJ

emmitt01 · December 2, 2010

It was not criticizing but more an opinion/ suggestion. How many team honestly run a 6 man lineup playing 35 minutes with starters and are sucesful in the post season or even make it to the post season? Look on espn and find Kansas stats.. see what their starts are averaging at this point. Yes... they will play more as season progresses but not for many weeks to months to come. By then our legs will be dead and our depth will drop off because Holmon or Edwards will not have experience riding the bench. We need to play them early and often during non-conference games especially when we are up 20 and sit are starters. As for the lineup. Dom shorter and Hogans makes perfect sense off the bench. A lot of teams still dont start their top 5 right?

Apparently you've never heard of the 95-96 Umass squad. All five starters played 30 plus minutes. Gee, hope we dont end up like them in the Final Four.

TheTastyGreek · December 2, 2010

Apparently you've never heard of the 95-96 Umass squad. All five starters played 30 plus minutes. Gee, hope we dont end up like them in the Final Four.

It's the damnedest thing... Apparently, there are all sorts of way to win, depending on your team's strengths and available assets.

If only we had someone with the wisdom to figure out the best way for us to succeed with this year's lineup...

jimmyjames_99 · December 2, 2010

It's the damnedest thing... Apparently, there are all sorts of way to win, depending on your team's strengths and available assets.

If only we had someone with the wisdom to figure out the best way for us to succeed with this year's lineup...

+1

KoldBeer · December 2, 2010

Last year, Duke and Butler met in the finals. Duke had three guys average more than 35.5 minutes per game last year through a 40 game season (Nolan Smith only played 38). Fatigue didn't stop them from winning the national championship. Butler had four guys average over 30 minutes per game playing 37 or 38 games apiece. Butler only had 8 guys total average more than 5.6 minutes per game.

The last time Kansas won a national championship was 2008. They had 8 guys average more than 10 minutes per game. I don't know where you get that they had a 10 man bench... Only 10 guys even made appearances in at least 75% of their games.

Uconn's last national championship came in 2004. If you take out Marcus Williams, who was suspended for much of the year and only saw action in 16 out of 39 games... They had exactly seven guys play more than 10 minutes per game. Three of their starters averaged over 30 minutes per game.

Who else should I research? Did you mention any other top teams that I missed?

I'm a Kansas fan and Self wants an 8 to 9 player rotation. Right now KU is playing a lot of players but I assume he'll tighten the rotation up as the season goes along. Roy Williams liked a larger rotation (at least at Kansas). In the NCAA, bench isn't an issue because the TV timeouts are longer.

I think we'd all like a couple of more guys for North Texas but I don't know where we're going to get it. That's why we have to keep the recruiting up. At this point, we have to roll with what we've got.

With regards to White, I haven't watched as many games as people on this board, but from what I've seen he's a great player. I don't care what happens at the next level (lots of great undersized players don't make it to next level), but he can play on my team any day. I trust him with the ball at the end of the game.

Mean Green Matt · December 2, 2010

As long as we win the game, I don't care. If we beat a bad team by 1, then go out a couple nights later and beat a good team by 1, it is all the same to me.

In my opinion, the best thing to take from these 4 games against D1 teams is that this team knows how to win. They have gotten themselves into some difficult scenarios this year, but so far have always found a way to win.

GrandGreen · December 2, 2010

I am not sure criticism of the team is the same as not appreciating the job JJ has done and the great players this team has. Sure NT is 5-1 at this point and that is the best anyone could have asked. The issue with me is I envisioned this team as capable of being the very best at NT of all time. With the big three and Johnson and Hogans back, this could be that special team. Unfortunately, NT had a horrible year recruiting and I don't think anyone can challenge that. The season ending injury to Williams has further exposed a team with no apparent depth. I see a lot of references to team winning big with small rotations and starters playing big minutes. A lot of coaches believe in that philosophy and it works well for them. Your stars may be more tired but they are still better than their backups. The difference at NT is that it is not the preferable style, it is out of necessity and it is not a 7 or 8 man rotation, it is six. The odds of NT going through the rest of the season without injuries that require one of those six to be out a game or two are small. As most of you know it is not only that you may lose a player to foul problems but the fact that the players know the situation and the defense becomes timid because of fear of fouling out and having to play with an out of position or weaker player. Your ability to press and play up-tempo is also tempered.

I can see with this current class that JJ may not have wanted to give a scholarship to a weaker player and forgo someone much better next year, but I do think he has severely jeopardized this season with that decision. Water under the bridge at this point, but I think we are all gotten be really disappointed with the season unless someone develops. Edwards is a mystery. I don't know if he is injured or extremely immobile. Knox looks like he has regressed instead of demonstrating all this potential that keeps being touted. I don't know what is up with Holmen, he has played ten total minutes in the last two games. He is obviously in the doghouse. I think or at least hope that one of the three begins to contribute a lot more.The guards are all good and as long as they all remain healthy and can play 30 minutes or more a game, NT will be stretched at guard but should be alright.

JJ and this team has always came through, and I think they will this year. However, I don't see a top 50 team that could have been.

Army of Dad · December 2, 2010

It's the damnedest thing... Apparently, there are all sorts of way to win, depending on your team's strengths and available assets.

If only we had someone with the wisdom to figure out the best way for us to succeed with this year's lineup...

Yes there are and I trust in the Johns (to borrow a Vitoism), but we could also win like George Mason did during their Final Four run. I seem to recall they used most of their timeouts in conjunction with the media timeouts to play their starters most of the game and still keep them somewhat fresh.

Though I do love having these types of discussions with a 5-1 record!

Quoner · December 2, 2010

I am not sure criticism of the team is the same as not appreciating the job JJ has done and the great players this team has. Sure NT is 5-1 at this point and that is the best anyone could have asked. The issue with me is I envisioned this team as capable of being the very best at NT of all time. With the big three and Johnson and Hogans back, this could be that special team. Unfortunately, NT had a horrible year recruiting and I don't think anyone can challenge that. The season ending injury to Williams has further exposed a team with no apparent depth. I see a lot of references to team winning big with small rotations and starters playing big minutes. A lot of coaches believe in that philosophy and it works well for them. Your stars may be more tired but they are still better than their backups. The difference at NT is that it is not the preferable style, it is out of necessity and it is not a 7 or 8 man rotation, it is six. The odds of NT going through the rest of the season without injuries that require one of those six to be out a game or two are small. As most of you know it is not only that you may lose a player to foul problems but the fact that the players know the situation and the defense becomes timid because of fear of fouling out and having to play with an out of position or weaker player. Your ability to press and play up-tempo is also tempered.

I can see with this current class that JJ may not have wanted to give a scholarship to a weaker player and forgo someone much better next year, but I do think he has severely jeopardized this season with that decision. Water under the bridge at this point, but I think we are all gotten be really disappointed with the season unless someone develops. Edwards is a mystery. I don't know if he is injured or extremely immobile. Knox looks like he has regressed instead of demonstrating all this potential that keeps being touted. I don't know what is up with Holmen, he has played ten total minutes in the last two games. He is obviously in the doghouse. I think or at least hope that one of the three begins to contribute a lot more.The guards are all good and as long as they all remain healthy and can play 30 minutes or more a game, NT will be stretched at guard but should be alright.

JJ and this team has always came through, and I think they will this year. However, I don't see a top 50 team that could have been.

I think you've unlocked a mystery here. You've listed out valid concerns and did it in an intelligent fashion. No matter how we bluster on the board, we are all worried about these issues -- some just seem to look for them and wave them in everyone's face at every opportunity.

I appreciate a non-popular stance as much as the next guy, but the folks who are yelling "why did I get a -1?" usually aren't doing it the way you just did.

forevereagle · December 2, 2010

I don't care about pro potential? As a college player Josh is a first ballot HOF'er at NT. I am sure Tristan gets in, but not sure it'll be his first year eligible. Josh will almost certainly. I've followed this program for some years now, and I'd say he's one of the best 4-5 I've ever seen. Obviously I don't back as far as those that saw the Blakeley or MVC days, but still..I go back 20 some odd years!

I mean Brandon Kennedy was our best football player in the early 2000's. I don't care if he never played in the NFL and we had other guys that did. Pro success has nothing to do with how good a guy is in college.

Ryan Leaf, Akili Smith, Matt Leinart, Hasheem Thabeet, Adam Morrison, and Shawn Bradley agree.