Wku No Longer Has Nationally Ranked Class

[SUMG]

WKU lost it's national recruiting ranking....when their top recruit Cezar Guerrero backed out of a commitment:

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/recruiting/player-Cezar-Guerrero-82492

[greeninok]

I sure hate that for the Toppers

Guess that makes us have #1 class in the Belt

[MeanGreenTexan]

Wow. This is huge news. I wonder why he backed out? Either way, it's good for us.

[Censored by Laurie]

Wow. This is huge news. I wonder why he backed out? Either way, it's good for us.

No. No, it's not.

[jdennis82]

No. No, it's not.

i agree. that guy's already a look-a-like thread dream!

[All About UNT]

No. No, it's not.

elaborate CBL... I think I know where you are going with this but want to hear it from you.

[Censored by Laurie]

elaborate CBL... I think I know where you are going with this but want to hear it from you.

Anything bad that happens to our conference mates hurts us as well. A good WKU is good for us...same goes for the other 10 schools. If they improve their level of talent, we need to continue to do so as well...and I certainly feel with this incoming class that we have.

We can't celebrate WKU losing a top recruit...same goes for some who were relieved to not have to face Brandon Reed or Chris Gradnigo this season. All he's done to this point is re-open his recruitment...hopefully he still ends up in Bowling Green.

[MeanGreenTexan]

No. No, it's not.

I understand that we want our Belt foes to be very good so it elevates the rest of the conference (NT included), but WKY is going to be very good with or without Guerrero.

Now, if he were to sign with them and he is as-advertised, then UNT (as well as the rest of the belt) is in trouble of losing any kind of grip we could muster. WKY has a rich basketball history and that probably contributed to Guerrero's committment, but I will root against them starting up a dynasty with Guerrero as a cornerstone.

I agree that losing Reed and Gradnigo hurt the conference.

Edited November 22, 2010 by MeanGreenTexan

[Censored by Laurie]

I understand that we want our Belt foes to be very good so it elevates the rest of the conference (NT included), but WKY is going to be very good with or without Guerrero.

Now, if he were to sign with them and he is as-advertised, then UNT (as well as the rest of the belt) is in trouble of losing any kind of grip we could muster. WKY has a rich basketball history and that probably contributed to Guerrero's committment, but I will root against them starting up a dynasty with Guerrero as a cornerstone.

Sorry...I just don't think you can look at things like this. You're essentially setting a cap on where this conference...and by proxy, UNT can go. The mentality needs to be if WKU, or someone else, ups the talent level UNT needs to do the same.

[UNT90]

Anything bad that happens to our conference mates hurts us as well. A good WKU is good for us...same goes for the other 10 schools. If they improve their level of talent, we need to continue to do so as well...and I certainly feel with this incoming class that we have.

We can't celebrate WKU losing a top recruit...same goes for some who were relieved to not have to face Brandon Reed or Chris Gradnigo this season. All he's done to this point is re-open his recruitment...hopefully he still ends up in Bowling Green.

Maybe he just needs to come here and play with Williams.

It's a win-win for everyone... well, for us, anyway.

[Army of Dad]

I guess JJ will just have to step up and land another top recruit with one of our remaining 'ships and UNT will be the SBC team with a nationally ranked (top 25) class!

[MeanGreenTexan]

Sorry...I just don't think you can look at things like this. You're essentially setting a cap on where this conference...and by proxy, UNT can go. The mentality needs to be if WKU, or someone else, ups the talent level UNT needs to do the same.

I agree with this. Look at what FIU is building. Great!

I would love for Guerrero to change his committment to ARSt to replace Reed or LAL to replace Gradnigo. Really, I think it would be great for him to suit up on ANY SBC squad... just not WKY.

Maybe it's fear? But the last thing we need is to be the St. Mary's to WKY's Gonzaga.

To be clear, I don't want any team in the Belt to get worse or stay the same so that UNT can dominate a weak conference.

Right now, I think UNT is in a great position to grab this conference by the sack and run it for a very long time. WKY will always be good and will get better with guys like Peters and Dickerson continuing to come in. They will always challenge for the Eastern division and the conf championship. I just don't want a game-changer to put them over the top and prevent UNT from building the dynasty that we have started.

[Censored by Laurie]

I agree with this. Look at what FIU is building. Great!

I would love for Guerrero to change his committment to ARSt to replace Reed or LAL to replace Gradnigo. Really, I think it would be great for him to suit up on ANY SBC squad... just not WKY.

Maybe it's fear? But the last thing we need is to be the St. Mary's to WKY's Gonzaga.

To be clear, I don't want any team in the Belt to get worse or stay the same so that UNT can dominate a weak conference.

Right now, I think UNT is in a great position to grab this conference by the sack and run it for a very long time. WKY will always be good and will get better with guys like Peters and Dickerson continuing to come in. They will always challenge for the Eastern division and the conf championship. I just don't want a game-changer to put them over the top and prevent UNT from building the dynasty that we have started.

It's funny that you use that example...when I was initially writing my rebuttal I used the same analogy...though my statement was that St. Mary's LOVES what Gonzaga is and what they have done. Loves it. It has made that program significantly better and improved the appeal of the entire conference.

Add to that, I don't think Guerrero puts WKU way over the top...he's a good player, but not a program changer.

[MeanGreenTexan]

It's funny that you use that example...when I was initially writing my rebuttal I used the same analogy...though my statement was that St. Mary's LOVES what Gonzaga is and what they have done. Loves it. It has made that program significantly better and improved the appeal of the entire conference.

Add to that, I don't think Guerrero puts WKU way over the top...he's a good player, but not a program changer.

Great minds think alike... if not oppositely sometimes.

You might be right. Unless he changes his mind, I guess we'll never know.

[ntmeangreen11]

It's funny that you use that example...when I was initially writing my rebuttal I used the same analogy...though my statement was that St. Mary's LOVES what Gonzaga is and what they have done. Loves it. It has made that program significantly better and improved the appeal of the entire conference.

Add to that, I don't think Guerrero puts WKU way over the top...he's a good player, but not a program changer.

I agree, plus, you never know what is going to happen when you sign a kid from California and he's living all alone for the first time in Kentucky of all places. I don't know what kind of a town WKU is in, or even the name of it, but I'd be willing to bet he started to double think his decision on that alone.

[TheTastyGreek]

I agree, plus, you never know what is going to happen when you sign a kid from California and he's living all alone for the first time in Kentucky of all places. I don't know what kind of a town WKU is in, or even the name of it, but I'd be willing to bet he started to double think his decision on that alone.

They lost their star recruit last season to immaturity issues. I don't want them to be weak, because I want us to win a strong conference... But it isn't unprecedented for a highly regarded recruit to wash out completely (not just at WKU, but anywhere).

[GrandGreen]

Good, I don't want WKU or anyone else to get better recruits than NT. Yes, the better conference you are in the better your rpi is and hopefully NCAA pay outs. But sports is basically a zero sum activity, the name of the game is winning. You win by being better than your rivals. I could definitely stand for NT to be the Memphis equivalent in the Belt. Sure it would be nice for the Belt to have multiple teams get to the tournament, but most likely the Belt will remain a one ticket league. The only sure entry into the Tournament is by winning the Belt tourney. Being altruistic is nice, but NT chances are better the weaker the rest of the league is. Funny, I don't hear the Democrats hoping the Republicans will get a better candidate because the level of political discourse would be elevated.

[Censored by Laurie]

Good, I don't want WKU or anyone else to get better recruits than NT. Yes, the better conference you are in the better your rpi is and hopefully NCAA pay outs. But sports is basically a zero sum activity, the name of the game is winning. You win by being better than your rivals. I could definitely stand for NT to be the Memphis equivalent in the Belt. Sure it would be nice for the Belt to have multiple teams get to the tournament, but most likely the Belt will remain a one ticket league. The only sure entry into the Tournament is by winning the Belt tourney. Being altruistic is nice, but NT chances are better the weaker the rest of the league is. Funny, I don't hear the Democrats hoping the Republicans will get a better candidate because the level of political discourse would be elevated.

This statement drives me nuts on so many levels.

First, this is the basketball board...keep effing politics away from the last bastion of reasonable discourse on this board...especially when its such a terrible analogy.

Yes, wins are important...but wins against crap teams don't do a damned thing for your RPI, perception and thus eventual NCAA seeding. Memphis was a basketball power for years, went through a lull and then brought in a slimey guido to get them top 20 talent. They didn't build a program that was exceptionally better than C-USA, they bought one. We don't have that luxury...nor do we have their history to garner national regard that will give us 5 match-ups with top 15 teams to offset the terrible RPI of C-USA...or of this watered down Sun Belt you're proposing.

"The only sure entry into the Tournament is by winning the Belt tourney." - Thats the only SURE route for ANY team. However this league is 2 years removed from being a multi-bid league...and I think if UNT performs to our expectations and WKU gets things going in their tough OOC it could well happen again this year with some right breaks. Part of us needing those right breaks, though is that the rest of the conference is, at least to this point, not performing to expectations. Thats why you see everyday a new SBC games thread. Everything that happens to our conference mates happens to us as well.

The A-10 5-8 years ago was a 1 bid league. Now their schools refuse to participate in the mid-major poll and consistently put 3-5 teams in the tourney. The MVC puts multiple teams in on a regular basis. The WCC has built on Gonzaga success and St. Mary's, San Diego and Pepperdine have all made tourneys since '02.

I really feel this: Everything that happens to our conference mates happens to us as well. needs to be the mantra of every SBC school supporter.

[Censored by Laurie]

And furthermore...last year we were a 15 seed. We're a long way from being recognized as a burgeoning mid-major power...and a large part of that seeding last year was that the Sun Belt had an awful season. We were undoubtedly better than last year's 14 seeds Oakland, Montana, Sam Houston...and Ohio...you know, the Ohio team that beat Georgetown in the first round of the tourney...but perception of the Belt was that it was one of the worst 9 conferences in the country.

Anything above a 15 exponentially increases a schools chances of an upset. In order for that to happen though...and happen on a consistent basis...the conference as a whole needs to get better.

[GrandGreen]

And furthermore...last year we were a 15 seed. We're a long way from being recognized as a burgeoning mid-major power...and a large part of that seeding last year was that the Sun Belt had an awful season. We were undoubtedly better than last year's 14 seeds Oakland, Montana, Sam Houston...and Ohio...you know, the Ohio team that beat Georgetown in the first round of the tourney...but perception of the Belt was that it was one of the worst 9 conferences in the country.

Anything above a 15 exponentially increases a schools chances of an upset. In order for that to happen though...and happen on a consistent basis...the conference as a whole needs to get better.

Yes, you can argue ether way; a higher tide raises all boats, etc. The facts are NT has virtually nothing to do with how the other Belt schools recruit and if you want to fantasize that the Belt becomes a premier conference and sends multiple teams to the dance all with favorable seedings, have fun. You can speculate all you want about why NT has been a 15 seed, but that is all your doing. The facts are that NT has beat up a generally very poor oc schedule and as the case last year lost to some weak teams such as FIU and Boise . When it comes to tournament selection for a "mid major" is it better to have a higher rpi or a better record? Not as clear as you make it sound, because there are examples that support both. There is one thing for sure, don't lose and you are going to the NCAA tournament. There are many cases where high rpi teams are left at home as well as teams with sparkling win-loss records.

I like the Belt, it has been a good home for NT but I do believe that there are big limitations on how high and fast the conference can progress. It is never going to be in the upper echelon of conferences and in the near future; the only way to guarantee a birth in the NCAA tourney is to win the conference tournament. Once, you are in the tourney than the seeding is going to be based on how good your team is perceived. Is that perception better if you win 30 games against a bunch of patsies or struggle to be over .500 against an outstanding schedule?

I guess it is a definitely sign of progress that some are concerned more about the level of competition than the win column. I am really not concerned with who WKU or ULL recruits because it is beyond NT's control. I just think it is a little naive to believe that NT chances at post season success is enhanced by better conference competition. Because that is only true if NT gets into the NCAA tournament and better competition is definitely not going to improve those odds.

As far as bringing policies into a sports discussion, excuse me. It was an analogy there is no way that was a political statement.

Edited November 23, 2010 by GrandGreen

[TheTastyGreek]

Posted Today, 12:23 PM

It isn't speculation in the least. In '08 and '09 our conference tourney winner was a 12 seed (WKU both years) and we had an at large as a 10 seed in '08. UNT was a 15 in '07 b/c we won the tourney from the 5(?) seed...UNT was a 15 last year, yes IN PART b/c our OOC did us no favors..and IN PART b/c of some poor losses...but another PART of that equation was that the Sun Belt finished 21st of 31 conferences in RPI.

The conference FELL last year. All I'm hoping for with this want for improvement across the conference is to get it back in to the conversation with the Missouri Valley and the Colonial and the horizon...as it was as little as 2 seasons ago...and for it to be above the Ohio Valley, Big Sky, Big West ect...nobody is expecting ACC-level basketball...just the all round quality of a very short time ago.

Screw multiple bids, then. Better conference competition improves seeding...which as I said before, exponentially increases the odds of WINNING a tourney game. 15 seeds have won 4 times since the tourney went to 64 teams. 12 seeds win every year. When a 24 win SBC team gets a 15 seed its a sign that the conference and a 25 win SLC team gets a 14 its a significant sign that the Sun Belt regressed...and significantly.

Not sure why CBL's post evaporated, but I think (since it wasn't offensive or a personal attack or inappropriate in any way I could tell) it had something to do with the server thing.

Anyway, building on what he's saying... I'd rather see us win 20-24 games every year and make the NCAA tournament as a 12 seed every three years, cycling with WKU and Insert Other SBC Program, than see us win 20-24 games every year and be an annual NCAA fixture on the 15 seed line because of a weak conference.

I'm not saying people should share that view, just putting my personal preference out there.

[GrandGreen]

Lets beat this dead horse to death, I'm trying to throw in a trite cliche with every post. I'm getting a lot of arguments in my view that miss the point. I totally agree that the better the conference is, the more likely you are to get a better seed and conversely a better chance of winning in the tournament. The opposite and just as true concept is the better the conference, at least in a non-power conference is, the more difficult it is going to be to earn a spot in the NCAA's. I don't comprehend how anyone could argue with either statement. If you want to contend that a better conference greatly multiples your chance for multiple bids, there is no disagreement at all. The truth is however that the Belt has been an one bid conference for 9 of the ten years that NT has been involved. We can analyze forever whether WKU and USA relatively high seeds were do more to their impressive oc wins or the improvement in the conference during those years and not come up with a conclusive answer. The important point, again is that NT will play and hopefully beat teams they play against and has next to nothing to do with other teams' recruiting. I just find this debate, a little perplexing. I can't imagine for example many wanting NT's Belt foes on the football field to have better recruiting years were it would be much more difficult for NT to win, but maybe that would change if NT had four nine game winning seasons in a row.

[Mo Green]

JJ is the best coach UNT has ever had historically, so what if wku has the no 1 recruiting class in the belt,I was told on this forum that we would beat them anyway Grand.

[greenminer]

Hard to gauge or quantify, but I would hope that as any team has success, its competitors are going to do their darndest and figure out how to match/exceed them on the floor.

That would include upping the quality of coaching and recruits.

Pretty generic coach-speak. Sorry