Political Correctness And Player Discipline

[Got5onIt]

LOL! Not even close to a record like TD's tenure @ NT. So you think because our coaches didn't strike us in the face, curse at us, and slap us around, we grab assed at practice all day and sucked it up on Friday & Saturdays?? You guys think coaches don't discipline & run the $hit out of you if they don't act like the head caveman in practice?

Well, I will say that it could've happened with other positions coaches. I'll admit, maybe I didn't see that.....

As a side note, I went from 285lbs to 265lbs my freshman year in college during 2 a days. That was in the scorching heat of San Antonio, TX.

[UNT90]

LOL!! Really???

I'll send my son to a Dungy-like coach 10 times out of 10.

I saw that last post before you deleted it! So you admit that face mask grabbing and helmet slapping may have occurred with other position coaches besides your coach?

What were you, a field goal kicker?!?!

[Got5onIt]

I saw that last post before you deleted it! So you admit that face mask grabbing and helmet slapping may have occurred with other position coaches besides your coach?

What were you, a field goal kicker?!?!

I can't edit my posts for some reason. Had to delete & repost it. I was an OL. Tackle in HS, Guard in college.

[UNT90]

I can't edit my posts for some reason. Had to delete & repost it. I was an OL. Tackle in HS, Guard in college.

My last post was for cheap humor purposes, and not a shot.

How about this. You and I will coach the Gomeangreen.com bowl. I'll use the old school tactics, and you go with the touchy, feely new school tactics.

I can't wait to get the slap on!! I can promise you my players will go on to lead long, successful lives, while yours will sink into a drug addicted abyss.

[KRAM1]

Here is how far coaching has come in Texas...yes, I did play HS ball in the 60's...64-66 to be exact...AND, in a 2 hour practice we were not allowed even one water break! That was every practice...during the summer workouts...which would run over 2 hours for each two-a-day drill...we had one water break every practice. Ninety percent of the practices in the summer two-a-days were in full pads and helmets!

And, our school was no different than any other we played...just the way it was...and we had ZERO heat exhaustion or heat stroke problems. I have no real clue why, other than the fact that we were outside in the heat all the time-all summer. Many homes only had window unit A/C's or what they called evaporative coolers. So, maybe we were more used to the heat...who knows.

Look it was just different. And, yes, our coaches grabbed our face masks on a fairly regular basis (Most had face masks in the mid-60's, but not too many in HS had the full cage type...I played deep snapper and linebacker with a single bar one season. We thought absolutely nothing of it. There was some butt kicking as well...all in good fun...except if you were the one getting kicked because it might mean you wouldn't be playing Friday unless you shaped up.

Again, it was just different then. No parent ever thought of suing or complaining to the athletic director or principal. Heck, we would be major league embarrassed if they did, and our team members would kill us if our parents complained about a little display of discipline from the coach. Did they try to hurt us in any way...never, but discipline and "coaching moments" took on a whole different meaning than it does today.

Not better, not worse...just they way it was...kids today are in much better "football shape" and have much...MUCH...better equipment and facilities and are definitely handled much more carefully than in the "dark ages", but that does not mean they are "wusses" by any means. Heck, you know how it goes...it's hard to even cut a kid these days. In the "dark ages" you were selected or cut on a regular basis depending on what the coaches thought and that was the end of it! Today...everyone makes the team...one team or another...and at the younger ages everyone gets a ribbon or a trophy.

It's hard to compare the two because things are just different in so many ways. Both sides here have made some good points and maybe "missed" in a few areas...so what? Some like Bobby Knight ... some like Tony Dungey...both are good depending upon your perspective. Both have had a great deal of success and both have players who are very loyal to them. I'd let my kid make the decision as to where he/she wanted to play for a Knight or a Dungey type coach. Frankly, from what I know about both (and it isn't that much) I'd be OK with either as both stressed academics, sportsmanship on the field and life after college sports.

[UNTLifer]

1.So, grabbing a facemask or slapping a helmet out of anger for a missed assignment rates discipline??

2.Well, you better get out the discipline memos, because I promise you every college football coach in America, at one time or another, has committed this violation of university code.

3.Amazing how people can't see the hypocrisy.

1. If it isn't for discipline, then why are they grabbing a player's face mask?

2. Probably correct, but this still doesn't make it right and I would bet that these occurrences are less and less.

3. Where is the hypocrisy? A young man accepts that he will either; be hit or tackled within the rules of the game by other players if he is an offensive player, or the he will be blocked, within the rules of the game, by opposing players if he plays defense. This doesn't mean that he accepts the same type of actions from a coach as a form of discipline or to get his attention.

Bobby Knight or Tony Dungy? Really? I have zero respect for how Knight conducted himself during games. Arguing with an official is one thing, but throwing a chair across the floor is childish and uncalled for. I also have zero respect for how he treated some of his players. I'm sure you could contact some that didn't have nice things to say or fond memories of playing for him. I do respect the fact that his players attended class and graduated, but not much more.

BTW, I played baseball for 17 years, basketball for six years, football for six years and ran track for two years. I was never yanked around by my face mask by any of my coaches, ever. My father was a successful high school and college coach from the mid 40's through the mid 60's and he never did any of this and his players respected him. Respect is earned, not a right.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the "wussification" of America. An example of this is the P.E. classes in California that conducted jump rope without the rope because some students couldn't master the skill, and they didn't want them to feel bad.

[TheTastyGreek]

When I was a kid, I didn't play much in the way of organized team sports. I was a tournament kickboxer.

Training and practice consisted of a 30+ year old man (or his wife, or their advanced adult students) punching and kicking me in the chest, head, and face. That's what allowed me to get good enough to be successful when other 12-14 year olds would take their turns trying to punch and kick me in the chest, head, and face for fabulous prizes and awards.

That's how it worked, and there wasn't anything wrong with it. My parents would sit there as spectators and watch bigger and stronger adults beat on me for hours.

But if either of the instructors that ran that program would ever have put their hands around my neck or slapped me, especially outside the ring or off the mats where training and competition actually took place, that would have crossed a line.

Even when someone's literal responsibility as your coach is to hit you, it crosses a line of propriety to do what Leavitt was accused of doing.

I still want him as our coach. But if he did what a lot of people say he did, then he did something wrong. It isn't the sort of mistake that should define the man for the rest of his life, but it was a serious mistake.

We're not trying to fill a job opening for Saint. We're looking to replace a head football coach. This guy would be a great option for us. But we don't need to rationalize away what allegedly happened to justify hiring him.

[UNT90]

1. If it isn't for discipline, then why are they grabbing a player's face mask?

2. Probably correct, but this still doesn't make it right and I would bet that these occurrences are less and less.

3. Where is the hypocrisy? A young man accepts that he will either; be hit or tackled within the rules of the game by other players if he is an offensive player, or the he will be blocked, within the rules of the game, by opposing players if he plays defense. This doesn't mean that he accepts the same type of actions from a coach as a form of discipline or to get his attention.

Bobby Knight or Tony Dungy? Really? I have zero respect for how Knight conducted himself during games. Arguing with an official is one thing, but throwing a chair across the floor is childish and uncalled for. I also have zero respect for how he treated some of his players. I'm sure you could contact some that didn't have nice things to say or fond memories of playing for him. I do respect the fact that his players attended class and graduated, but not much more.

BTW, I played baseball for 17 years, basketball for six years, football for six years and ran track for two years. I was never yanked around by my face mask by any of my coaches, ever. My father was a successful high school and college coach from the mid 40's through the mid 60's and he never did any of this and his players respected him. Respect is earned, not a right.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the "wussification" of America. An example of this is the P.E. classes in California that conducted jump rope without the rope because some students couldn't master the skill, and they didn't want them to feel bad.

So, I repeat:

You are OK with sending 18-23 year olds onto a field to perform physical violence for your pleasure at a risk (a great risk if you are a UNT starter in 2010) of disabling injury, but you are offended to high heaven by a coach slapping a player (causing no injury at all) to get his attention about a mistake in a violent game played for your entertainment?

That is hypocrisy.

And it is the wussification of America. Otherwise, explain how anything other than that players feelings were hurt.

[MeanGreenTexan]

So, I repeat:

You are OK with sending 18-23 year olds onto a field to perform physical violence for your pleasure at a risk (a great risk if you are a UNT starter in 2010) of disabling injury, but you are offended to high heaven by a coach slapping a player (causing no injury at all) to get his attention about a mistake in a violent game played for your entertainment?

That is hypocrisy.

And it is the wussification of America. Otherwise, explain how anything other than that players feelings were hurt.

Sir, you are now so entrenched, it's silly and worthless for anyone to even argue anymore.

It's not a matter of "wussification", it's principle. If you cannot see that, then so be it. I'll hang up and listen...

[forevereagle]

My last post was for cheap humor purposes, and not a shot.

How about this. You and I will coach the Gomeangreen.com bowl. I'll use the old school tactics, and you go with the touchy, feely new school tactics.

I can't wait to get the slap on!! I can promise you my players will go on to lead long, successful lives, while yours will sink into a drug addicted abyss.

I am now unsure of what team I want to play for. Since this is a flag football game, I don't like the idea of getting slapped a lot, but I also don't want to sink into and drug addicted abyss. There is not a good choice here.

[Got5onIt]

When I was a kid, I didn't play much in the way of organized team sports. I was a tournament kickboxer.

Training and practice consisted of a 30+ year old man (or his wife, or their advanced adult students) punching and kicking me in the chest, head, and face. That's what allowed me to get good enough to be successful when other 12-14 year olds would take their turns trying to punch and kick me in the chest, head, and face for fabulous prizes and awards.

That's how it worked, and there wasn't anything wrong with it. My parents would sit there as spectators and watch bigger and stronger adults beat on me for hours.

But if either of the instructors that ran that program would ever have put their hands around my neck or slapped me, especially outside the ring or off the mats where training and competition actually took place, that would have crossed a line.

Even when someone's literal responsibility as your coach is to hit you, it crosses a line of propriety to do what Leavitt was accused of doing.

I still want him as our coach. But if he did what a lot of people say he did, then he did something wrong. It isn't the sort of mistake that should define the man for the rest of his life, but it was a serious mistake.

We're not trying to fill a job opening for Saint. We're looking to replace a head football coach. This guy would be a great option for us. But we don't need to rationalize away what allegedly happened to justify hiring him.

Excellent post. Funny as hell, too. I'm all for Leavitt, but the incident can't be swept under the rug for the sake of propping up your favorite candidate.

[EagleMBA]

Here is how far coaching has come in Texas...yes, I did play HS ball in the 60's...64-66 to be exact...AND, in a 2 hour practice we were not allowed even one water break! That was every practice...during the summer workouts...which would run over 2 hours for each two-a-day drill...we had one water break every practice. Ninety percent of the practices in the summer two-a-days were in full pads and helmets!

And, our school was no different than any other we played...just the way it was...and we had ZERO heat exhaustion or heat stroke problems. I have no real clue why, other than the fact that we were outside in the heat all the time-all summer. Many homes only had window unit A/C's or what they called evaporative coolers. So, maybe we were more used to the heat...who knows.

Look it was just different. And, yes, our coaches grabbed our face masks on a fairly regular basis (Most had face masks in the mid-60's, but not too many in HS had the full cage type...I played deep snapper and linebacker with a single bar one season. We thought absolutely nothing of it. There was some butt kicking as well...all in good fun...except if you were the one getting kicked because it might mean you wouldn't be playing Friday unless you shaped up.

Again, it was just different then. No parent ever thought of suing or complaining to the athletic director or principal. Heck, we would be major league embarrassed if they did, and our team members would kill us if our parents complained about a little display of discipline from the coach. Did they try to hurt us in any way...never, but discipline and "coaching moments" took on a whole different meaning than it does today.

Not better, not worse...just they way it was...kids today are in much better "football shape" and have much...MUCH...better equipment and facilities and are definitely handled much more carefully than in the "dark ages", but that does not mean they are "wusses" by any means. Heck, you know how it goes...it's hard to even cut a kid these days. In the "dark ages" you were selected or cut on a regular basis depending on what the coaches thought and that was the end of it! Today...everyone makes the team...one team or another...and at the younger ages everyone gets a ribbon or a trophy.

It's hard to compare the two because things are just different in so many ways. Both sides here have made some good points and maybe "missed" in a few areas...so what? Some like Bobby Knight ... some like Tony Dungey...both are good depending upon your perspective. Both have had a great deal of success and both have players who are very loyal to them. I'd let my kid make the decision as to where he/she wanted to play for a Knight or a Dungey type coach. Frankly, from what I know about both (and it isn't that much) I'd be OK with either as both stressed academics, sportsmanship on the field and life after college sports.

Amen to the above. I played in Indiana, 59 - 63. Roughly the same experience, just not as much heat. Lots of salt tablets! 59 was the last year for the leather helmets at my school. We had a single bar face mask. Played OG and linebacker; we went both ways, but it means something else now. If you got injured, coach told you to suck it up and fix it after practice.

I would not trade anything for the experience; it prepared me for life as it really is.

Edited October 25, 2010 by EagleMBA

[GrandGreen]

Jeez, what Leavitt allegedly did is not ok under any circumstances, but neither is it worthy of completely destroying a career. If he did do it as alleged, it cost him his job and probably a lot of money. The question is what is his character and going forward can he perform the job in the manner that NT needs. Again, if this did occur and is an isolated occurrence in a long career, then I believe it should be given little weight. However, if he has a history of questionable conduct than he is not NT's man.

Frankly, in the old days this would hardly be noticed; but in the days of openness, this has to be evaluated. There appear to be a lot of potential good applicants available and maybe Leavitt is not the best one, but he certainly should be looked at. He has a proven record of building a program with little limited resources. However, there is definitely a reason that USF wants him out.

[wardly]

makes you wonder how general george patton ever got fired for slapping a g.i. during ww2. now if he had been a football coach,........

[UNT90]

Out of all of the replies, no one gives a reason why Leavitt's actions are wrong or what harm came to the player. The basic response is "that crossed a line,'

Whose line? Who sets that line? Why has the line moved so much in the last 15 years?

I'm still waiting for an explanation as to what harm Leavitt's actions caused the player involved....

Edited October 25, 2010 by UNT90

[TheTastyGreek]

Out of all of the replies, no one gives a reason why Leavitt's actions are wrong or what harm came to the player. The basic response is "that crossed a line,'

Whose line? Who sets that line? Why has the line moved so much in the last 15 years?

I'm still waiting for an explanation as to what harm Leavitt's actions caused the player involved....

Nothing changed in 15 years.

The example I used was from 18 years ago.

I'm getting old.

[wardly]

Out of all of the replies, no one gives a reason why Leavitt's actions are wrong or what harm came to the player. The basic response is "that crossed a line,'

Whose line? Who sets that line? Why has the line moved so much in the last 15 years?

I'm still waiting for an explanation as to what harm Leavitt's actions caused the player involved....

why don't you ask the player? i'm sure you could track him down with all the information tools available now.

[FirefightnRick]

But if he did what a lot of people say he did, t

Just reminding, ONE person says he saw him hit another player, when asked then that player denied it. But once he talked with his dad and deacon/coach he changed his mind.

Rick

[FirefightnRick]

Again, if this did occur and is an isolated occurrence in a long career, then I believe it should be given little weight.

Excellent point. In everything I have read in all thelong lists of reports and bloggs on this it appears this is the only negative incident that ever occured in his 30 years of coaching.

Rick

[GrandGreen]

Out of all of the replies, no one gives a reason why Leavitt's actions are wrong or what harm came to the player. The basic response is "that crossed a line,'

Whose line? Who sets that line? Why has the line moved so much in the last 15 years?

I'm still waiting for an explanation as to what harm Leavitt's actions caused the player involved....

Well for one thing, I don't think the recruiting pitch "Come get slapped around at NT" would be very successful. As far as you wanting an explanation as to the harm inflected, I don't think anyone knows enough to answer that. IF the alleged incident took place, how hard was he hit, was it done in anger or just a bad motivation ploy, were actions like this common or was the player singled out? I wonder if Woody Hayes could answer your question.

[Green Dozer]

Okay, we all agree he hit somebody. It is an emotional game, so I can get past that this was an isolated incident. But, what about story he tried to get the witnesses to change their story or cover it up? So, that does not bring up any questions concerning his integrity? Some here do, some don't. You know, there sure is a lot of smoke for there to be no fire.

Somebody posted, Tasty I think, that RV was surprised about the negative comments made about Bower here. Wait until he reads this debate on Leavitt, all comments on Bower will be seen as positive.

Edited October 26, 2010 by Green Dozer

[UNTLifer]

I agree with FFR and GrandGreen regarding Levitt. It does appear to be one instance in a fairly long career.

90, there is zero hypocrisy on this board regarding your point. Hitting and tackling are legally PART OF THE GAME and head slaps and grabbing the face mask are considered against the rules resulting in a penalty. The above occur during the playing of the game and are ACCEPTED RISKS by the participants. Being head slapped, choked and having your head yanked around by a coach are not acceptable forms of coaching and are not an accepted risk by the players. These infractions can also result in a penalty against the coach, see Leach, Levitt, Woody Hayes, etc...for example. Two have had their career interrupted and the other is career ended by these needless acts.

[UNT90]

I agree with FFR and GrandGreen regarding Levitt. It does appear to be one instance in a fairly long career.

90, there is zero hypocrisy on this board regarding your point. Hitting and tackling are legally PART OF THE GAME and head slaps and grabbing the face mask are considered against the rules resulting in a penalty. The above occur during the playing of the game and are ACCEPTED RISKS by the participants. Being head slapped, choked and having your head yanked around by a coach are not acceptable forms of coaching and are not an accepted risk by the players. These infractions can also result in a penalty against the coach, see Leach, Levitt, Woody Hayes, etc...for example. Two have had their career interrupted and the other is career ended by these needless acts.

Uh.... Leach never touched the kid. He simply made him stand up in an air onditioned room. But I guess that is abuse since the players feelings were hurt.

[VideoEagle]

Uh.... Leach never touched the kid. He simply made him stand up in an air onditioned room. But I guess that is abuse since the players feelings were hurt.

This is still going. I think what Leavitt did was relatively minor but must be taken into account. The fact he tried to cover it up shows he felt there was something to hide. It should be factor into his hiring as a strong negative, but not something that completely rules him out.

Leach and Leavitt are very different situations. Leach made the mistake of punishing a player while that player had a concussion. Yes, I know Leach claims he wasn't punishing the player. But everyone - and I do mean everyone - else says he was. He wanted to humiliate the kid for being a jerk. I agree the kid was a jerk and if Leach had waited until the the concussion had healed he could probably have humiliated him without a problem. But Leach wouldn't wait and punished him anyway.

Unfortunately for Leach, he did this when the AMA, the NFL, the NFLPA, the NCAA and every other medical group was going on TV, radio, newspaper and the internet with the message that NOTHING can be done that COULD discourage a player in any sport in any way from not admitting to having a concussion. They have shown conclusively that for decade players have been told to "suck it up" or "shake it off" and go back in the game. Usually, there were no obvious ill effects. But now everyone knows there is permanent brain damage. It might be minor - lowering a person's IQ from 130 to 120. But there is still permanent brain damage in enough cases the rules had to change.

In Leach's case, there was a group just waiting for such a complete screw up and the pounced on their chance. If Leach had promptly apologized, agreed to never do anything like that again and did a series of commercials about the dangers of concussions he would have made it much more difficult to fire him. But his ego wouldn't let him do that.

While all Leach did to the player was hurt his feelings, his actions would probably cause another player to hesitate to admit to having a concussion and just "suck it up." If his family had an attorney - or one finds them - then the school could be found liable for a very large judgement. Note the "if" and "could." It's not certain, but it is clearly a risk.

[eulessismore]

why don't you ask the player? i'm sure you could track him down with all the information tools available now.

Do you really think that's a good idea? Actually, he's probably easy to find, like maybe on the roster of USF. He's had enough legal advice that he probably ain't talking to us. Maybe one of us could ask some of the assistant coaches not retained by Skip Holtz if they'd like to work for Leavitt again. Some of them seemed on a pretty good career path before all this went down, and their professional behavior in salvaging the USF recruiting class was duly noted by Holtz, although he wanted to bring in his own guys.

How the USF 2010 recruiting class was saved.

Edited October 26, 2010 by eulessismore