Political Correctness And Player Discipline

The Fake Lonnie Finch · October 25, 2010

In my high school days, it was ok to be grabbed by the facemask or have a coach slap you upside the helmet when trying to get your attention. Unfortunately, society does not accept that any more. It is why the Mangino's, Leaches, Leavitt's, etc are out of jobs because they were to "tough" on somebody's little baby. Just watch how parents treat their kids in public, and for those of you over 30, make a comparison to your youth. Brent Venables, assistant at OU and a coach often mentioned here, is very intense but has been called out more than once for how he deals with players on the sidelines. As for Patterson, it would be handled differently in his case if TCU were not so far up the mountain for now due to the attention concussions and hard hits are getting recently. But at least Patterson was honest when asked about his actions when he described himself as very intense and that it was well documented. I still don't have a problem with the incident, but Leavitt trying to change the story of what took place was the wrong that was committed. All he had to do was man up in this incident, and I just do not understand his reasoning. After all, this is a violent game, and the adults that you say have to keep their cool are human to. And again, if Rawlins and RV get a satisfactorily explanation and do not feel it will have a negative impact on our program, then I have to trust in the decision.

This, I agree with.

In fact, alot of what is happening in Leavitt's case is simply posturing. Unnecessary posturing.

Joel Miller asked for an apology. Leavitt's attorneys said no. His attorneys said no.

Here's the thing that is vexing to me: If, after the incident, Leavitt had just admitted to what he did quickly and apologized, I don't think he'd have even been fired. I think USF would probably have put him on some kind of probation as discipline.

The problem, as is usually the case, is that Leavitt is letting his attorney call all of his shots. The clips I've seen with Leavitt and his attorney are ridiculous. Leavitt appears to just be a bystander.

Franchione is clear. Mangino is clear. Leavitt...he's still in limbo because he's apparently been advised not to take any deal and to fight until the end.

Unfortunately for Leavitt, that has meant going almost a full year without a paycheck. It's crazy. He's got about two dozen witnesses against him already and his attorney is keeping him sidelined.

I have no doubt that if they had settled in February, his name would be coming up in any number of BCS vacancies that are popping open. He's too good coach not to have his name mentioned.

And, of course he's going to be "interested" in our open job. Anybody currently drawing $0.00 is going to be interested in a job.

No matter what the profession, it rarely does anyone - except the attorney being paid - well to drag out a matter. I wish Leavitt would settle and move on. We could really use him.

Edited October 25, 2010 by The Fake Lonnie Finch

meaniegreenie · October 25, 2010

What about Butt Slaps?? Could a coach be brought up on Sexual Harassment charges for that age-old tradition?

I've noticed that the Cheerleaders/Dancers don't seem to be motivated enough. I am going to personally take on the position of Motivational Leader for these groups. I'll even provide this as a purely volunteer effort. Note: I think the male cheerleaders are motivated enough and won't need the obligatory butt-slap.

UNT90 · October 25, 2010

The locker room is different. Players don't expect to be choked and slapped by their coaches. Nor does a university expect that their employees and representative will do such to a student.

In short, hitting is expected on the field of play; it is explicitly forbidden by university code off the field. You are logical enough to understand the difference.

But, even so, hitting on the field has it's parameters as well.

I'm sure tackling a student is forbidden by the university code, as is slapping a student on the butt and grabbing a student by the shoulders.

But they simply aren't applicable in a football situation. Football is a physical game. Coaches use physical methods to get the attention of their players, always have, always will.

I'm sure the player was grabbed by the neck, but I seriously doubt he was choked. There is a huge difference. The slap in the face was to get the players attention. Leavitt should not have lied about the allegations.

Do you seriously think the school did not want him out for other reasons? That is just naive. They had a "victim" that said the event didn't happen. If they wanted to keep Leavit, the investigation ends there.

The Fake Lonnie Finch · October 25, 2010

The player CLOSEST to the action was the player himself. He was quoated as saying that it was no big deal.

So putting football in the text of the law, every single time someone is making a tackle or blocking someone, they are committing assault.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone, it just seems that the wussification of America has trickled into college football.

The player did say Leavitt choked and hit him:

http://ncaafootball.fanhouse.com/2010/01/14/south-floridas-joel-miller-wants-leavitt-to-admit-what-happene/

http://ncaafootball.fanhouse.com/2010/03/04/joel-miller-wont-sue-former-south-florida-coach-jim-leavitt/

http://www.tampabay.com/sports/college/joel-miller-former-usf-walk-on-at-center-of-jim-leavitt-controversy-earns/1116866

UNT90 · October 25, 2010

Teaching fundamentals is one thing, hitting, slapping, grabbing out of anger to discipline a player is another. When you can grasp that concept this will all sink in. Maybe.

So, grabbing a facemask or slapping a helmet out of anger for a missed assignment rates discipline??

Well, you better get out the discipline memos, because I promise you every college football coach in America, at one time or another, has committed this violation of university code.

Amazing how people can't see the hypocrisy.

Got5onIt · October 25, 2010

So, grabbing a facemask or slapping a helmet out of anger for a missed assignment rates discipline??

Well, you better get out the discipline memos, because I promise you every college football coach in America, at one time or another, has committed this violation of university code.

Amazing how people can't see the hypocrisy.

What's so hard to understand about choking a player then slapping him over grabbing a facemask or shoulder pads??? First of all, this wussification crap idiots preach about is stupid. You are held accountable for your actions. I played football from little league all the way into college. Never ONCE did I witness an idiot coach grab a player by the facemask out of anger, sling a player around by facemasks or shoulder pads out of anger, or strike a player out of anger. NEVER. Now, I've seen coaches yell at players and get in their faces and yell at the top of their lungs, but never any sort of physical contact.

You're an idiot if you think putting your hands on a player in any manner out of ANGER is ok. Also, you're an idiot if you think doing so can be compared to contact on the field of play.

Like I said, I'm all for Leavitt being teh next NT head coach. But I do want to hear a clear explanation on the events that occurred directly from Jim's mouth.

UNT90 · October 25, 2010

The head coach is in a position of power and authority just like the boss at your place of employment. Were your boss to grab you about the throat and slap you in front of a room of your fellow employees would you shrug it off as nothing?

Flip the script. Say the player walks up to the coach and, out of frustration, chokes/slaps him. How many 2nd chances does he get at the D1 level?

None of us participate in controlled violence in the work place as an everyday occurrence. Plus, the workplace analogy doesn't work, because this isn't these kid's jobs. A teacher/student analogy would be better.

Students (in increasingly less and less districts) still face a paddling for discipline problems. Which is worse, paddling the butt of a 15 year old or slapping a 21 year old that participates in a violent game by choice?

UNT90 · October 25, 2010

What's so hard to understand about choking a player then slapping him over grabbing a facemask or shoulder pads??? First of all, this wussification crap idiots preach about is stupid. You are held accountable for your actions. I played football from little league all the way into college. Never ONCE did I witness an idiot coach grab a player by the facemask out of anger, sling a player around by facemasks or shoulder pads out of anger, or strike a player out of anger. NEVER. Now, I've seen coaches yell at players and get in their faces and yell at the top of their lungs, but never any sort of physical contact.

You're an idiot if you think putting your hands on a player in any manner out of ANGER is ok. Also, you're an idiot if you think doing so can be compared to contact on the field of play.

Like I said, I'm all for Leavitt being teh next NT head coach. But I do want to hear a clear explanation on the events that occurred directly from Jim's mouth.

So grabbing the face mask to demonstrate a face mask penalty is ok, as long as you are not mad?

So now, being mad is the issue? We can't get mad at the little players and hurt there wittle feelings? Jeez!!

I don't believe you were never grabbed by the facemask or shoulder pads for a coach to make a point. I do believe you don't remember it BECAUSE IT WASNT A BIG DEAL.

Edited October 25, 2010 by UNT90

Got5onIt · October 25, 2010

So grabbing the face mask to demonstrate a face mask penalty is ok, as long as you are not mad?

So now, being mad is the issue? We can't get mad at the little players and hurt there wittle feelings? Jeez!!

I don't believe you were never grabbed by the facemask or shoulder pads for a coach to make a point. I do believe you don't remember it BECAUSE IT WASNT A BIG DEAL.

Well, this is a subject matter we just have to disagree on.

When your son is given an athletic scholarship by the Bobby Knights of the world vs the Tony Dungys, who are you going to pick???? It's not even a question one should have trouble answering, IMO.

Let me make clear, that I in no way am implying Leavitt is a Bob Knight. This is a hypothetical Q aimed right at UNT90.

Green P1 · October 25, 2010

None of us participate in controlled violence in the work place as an everyday occurrence. Plus, the workplace analogy doesn't work, because this isn't these kid's jobs. A teacher/student analogy would be better.

Students (in increasingly less and less districts) still face a paddling for discipline problems. Which is worse, paddling the butt of a 15 year old or slapping a 21 year old that participates in a violent game by choice?

You win. I'd avoided allowing myself to be sucked into stupidity for so long... Not sure how your thread got to me. I'll credit you with pulling a bit and show myself to the door.

Censored by Laurie · October 25, 2010

You win. I'd avoided allowing myself to be sucked into stupidity for so long... Not sure how your thread got to me. I'll credit you with pulling a bit and show myself to the door.

He has a better cadence than Kevin Kolb, I suppose.

GreenMachine · October 25, 2010

What's so hard to understand about choking a player then slapping him over grabbing a facemask or shoulder pads??? First of all, this wussification crap idiots preach about is stupid. You are held accountable for your actions. I played football from little league all the way into college. Never ONCE did I witness an idiot coach grab a player by the facemask out of anger, sling a player around by facemasks or shoulder pads out of anger, or strike a player out of anger. NEVER. Now, I've seen coaches yell at players and get in their faces and yell at the top of their lungs, but never any sort of physical contact.

You're an idiot if you think putting your hands on a player in any manner out of ANGER is ok. Also, you're an idiot if you think doing so can be compared to contact on the field of play.

Like I said, I'm all for Leavitt being teh next NT head coach. But I do want to hear a clear explanation on the events that occurred directly from Jim's mouth.

you sure are calling a lot of people idiots. you can show a little more intelligence when expressing your belief or opinion.

October 25, 2010

I have no problem grabbing a facemask or slapping a helmet, I think it is good for the coach to get a little aggressive. But that is on the field only, don't carry that into the locker room and don't try to embarrass a player in front of his teammates.

Got5onIt · October 25, 2010

you sure are calling a lot of people idiots. you can show a little more intelligence when expressing your belief or opinion.

Is this the wussification of America I keep hearing about?

First of all, I'm not directly calling UNT90 an idiot. If you read my post in it's entirety, I'm insinuating a person in general, is an idiot for thinking these things.

Now, can I directly insult your intelligence since you did not comprehend the intentions of my post? <_< :rolleyes:

GreenMachine · October 25, 2010

Is this the wussification of America I keep hearing about?

First of all, I'm not directly calling UNT90 an idiot. If you read my post in it's entirety, I'm insinuating a person in general, is an idiot for thinking these things.

Now, can I directly insult your intelligence since you did not comprehend the intentions of my post?

"this wussification crap idiots preach about is stupid."

I think we are wussifying many things here in America. Maybe since I'm not an ordained minister my wussification talk can't be construed as preaching. My bad.

Eagle1855 · October 25, 2010

It's the attempt to cover things up that bother me.

This.

Got5onIt · October 25, 2010

"this wussification crap idiots preach about is stupid."
I think we are wussifying many things here in America. Maybe since I'm not an ordained minister my wussification talk can't be construed as preaching. My bad.

Thank you, thank you very much. Your apology is greatly appreciated. Please, accept my apology as well. I hope I'm not contributing to the wussification of you, myself, this board, or this great country.

UNT90 · October 25, 2010

Well, this is a subject matter we just have to disagree on.
This is a hypothetical Q aimed right at UNT90.

If I had 1000 kids, I would choose Bob Knight 1000 times over Tony Dungy. Maybe you should dig a little deeper and listen to what Bob Knight's ex-players have to say about him instead of just judging him by media reports. I'm sure Tony Dungy is a fine coach, but give me Knight EVERY time.

Coach Knight's Bio

"During his six seasons at Army and his 29 years at Indiana University, he experienced nothing short of excellence! There are the wins, the conference titles, the national championships, and the exemplary graduation rate and player success after basketball. Most telling is the bond that exists between Coach Knight and those who have played for him."

So we now put how 20 year old players feel over graduation rates and successful lives. Priceless.

FirefightnRick · October 25, 2010

Never ONCE did I witness an idiot coach grab a player by the facemask out of anger, sling a player around by facemasks or shoulder pads out of anger, or strike a player out of anger.

Really? Who did you play for, the Boy's school for the blind?

I played 9 seasons and saw it so much and had it happen to me enough I couldn't even count. Seen it so many times ever since I would only be guessing how many times it happened. Tom Middaugh was at homecoming last weekend. If you ever see him again ask him about it when he played here.

90, I get the hypocrisy. And it's obvious few here ever played. One thing people keep repeating is that Miller went to the school with the complaint. He didn't, another disgruntled player went to another disgruntled ex Tampa reporter about it first.

How is it that so many people here can't see the sham for what it is?

There wasn't a single mark on the player, not one. And again, when are we going to get to hear from those who said the incident didn't happen as reported?

Some of you people deserve Jeff Bower. He can come here and get eaten alive in recruiting by Patterson and June Jones for all I care about some of you!

Rick

Edited October 25, 2010 by FirefightnRick

Got5onIt · October 25, 2010

Really? Who did you play for, the Boy's school for the blind?

I played 9 seasons and saw it so much and had it happen to me enough I couldn't even count. Seen it so many times ever since I would only be guessing how many times it happened. Tom Middaugh was at homecoming last weekend. If you ever see him again ask him about it when he played here.

90, I get the hypocrisy. And it's obvious few here ever played. One thing people keep repeating is that Miller went to the school with the complaint. He didn't, another disgruntled player went to another disgruntled ex Tampa reporter about it first.

How is it that so many people here can't see the sham for what it is?

There wasn't a single mark on the player, not one. And again, when are we going to get to hear from those who said the incident didn't happen as reported?

Some of you people deserve Jeff Bower. He can come here and get eaten alive in recruiting by Patterson and June Jones for all I care about some of you!

Rick

When did you guy's play 1960??? Did you guys go through ridiculous practices similar to the junction boys mess????? I'm only 30 by the way...

UNT90 · October 25, 2010

I have no problem grabbing a facemask or slapping a helmet, I think it is good for the coach to get a little aggressive. But that is on the field only, don't carry that into the locker room and don't try to embarrass a player in front of his teammates.

Depending on the personality of the player, the coach maybe attempting to send a message to the entire team through disciplining and embarassing players in front of other teammates. It's a pretty commonly used tactic in the coaching profession.

As far as "on the field," are you saying that it would be OK to grab a facemask on the sideline but not in the locker room at halftime? I think both are in the context of the game.

The main point of this thread was to point out that we, as fans, are perfectly OK sending 18-23 year old kids out on a playing field to risk serious injury, and in rare cases, paralysis, in a very violent game for our enjoyment, yet we are outraged when a coach simply slaps a player to get the players attention? Really?

If you can't see the hypocrisy in that, then you just don't want to.

Got5onIt · October 25, 2010

If I had 1000 kids, I would choose Bob Knight 1000 times over Tony Dungy. Maybe you should dig a little deeper and listen to what Bob Knight's ex-players have to say about him instead of just judging him by media reports. I'm sure Tony Dungy is a fine coach, but give me Knight EVERY time.

Coach Knight's Bio

"During his six seasons at Army and his 29 years at Indiana University, he experienced nothing short of excellence! There are the wins, the conference titles, the national championships, and the exemplary graduation rate and player success after basketball. Most telling is the bond that exists between Coach Knight and those who have played for him."

So we now put how 20 year old players feel over graduation rates and successful lives. Priceless.

LOL!! Really???

I'll send my son to a Dungy-like coach 10 times out of 10.

UNT90 · October 25, 2010

When did you guy's play 1960??? Did you guys go through ridiculous practices similar to the junction boys mess????? I'm only 30 by the way...

I'm guessing your teams had records worse than the Dodge tenure.

FirefightnRick · October 25, 2010

When did you guy's play 1960??? Did you guys go through ridiculous practices similar to the junction boys mess?????

No, but I did participate in my first two-a-days during the heat wave of 1980 which had something like 75-90 days in the 100's, and the usual rule of the time was to NOT let players have water during breaks, but to have ice only. I couldn't believe it. But instead of crying about it I improvised by carrying with me a small towel inside my belt to collect as much ice as possible during breaks, let it melt and drink the water from the bottom of it.

rcade can vouch for our head coach Rick Carney at the time. He didn't have much patience or sympathy for wusses.

Rick

LongJim · October 25, 2010

No, but I did participate in my first two-a-days during the heat wave of 1980 which had something like 75-90 days in the 100's, and the usual rule of the time was to NOT let players have water during breaks, but to have ice only.
Rick

69 days. 42 in a row. Miserable stuff. Brought in 1100 bales of coastal right before two-a-days that summer. Coach let us have 2 water breaks per practice, so I guess we were fortunate.

For the record, I think Leavitt's deal was way overblown, but unfortunately, this kind of "episode" is usually a scarlet letter for coaches nowdays.