It's All About The Injuries

GreenFlag · October 16, 2010

The fact that this thread has devolved into comments regarding the "bare cupboard" TD inherited yet again - despite the fact that it's the most refuted, crapped on, torn apart, and spit out tired B.S. argument in board history- kind of means we've reached the end of the argument. Don't make TTG rape and pillage you all again.

Not exactly. There were a high number of returning starters, especially on defense when TD got here. The "bare cupboard" means there was not that much talent. Yes, we had some nice players like we do today, but overall the talent cupboard is pretty bare. Disagree?

eulesseagle · October 16, 2010

Not exactly. There were a high number of returning starters, especially on defense when TD got here. The "bare cupboard" means there was not that much talent. Yes, we had some nice players like we do today, but overall the talent cupboard is pretty bare. Disagree?

yep....disagree

Side Show Joe · October 16, 2010

I was going to wait until there was a, "without a doubt", chance of North Texas winning the conference to write this but thought, what the heck, write it now. This team without a doubt would be sitting undefeated in conference play right now and probably would have beaten Rice and Army if not for the freaking injuries. With that being said all those who think Dodge has not turned this program around are simply just Dodge haters and will always be Dodge haters. The man has turned the program around. The football program is leaps and bounds ahead of where it was four years ago. Injuries have cost this team a chance of proving all naysayers wrong. Look at the bandaid team which plays each week. Not one player has given up on their coach or school. If the players played like they wanted the coach gone you wouldn't see the attitude and effort on the field you are seeing right now. You can look at it as WIN 7 or else if you chose but to me the program has arrived. The deck is stacked against North Texas winning those 7 games this year but it's not because this team was not prepared. Coach Dodge and his staff are the right combination for the future of this football program. The AD is put in a hard spot but hopefully it is one he can figure out by looking at the program itself and not the wins. The wins were there this year but so were the injuries! Name one team in the nation who could have survived this. Heck, University of Texas loses one QB and a few defensive guys and now they struggle. No I'm not comparing us to them.....just saying.....

Labeling fans "Dodge haters" just because they are demanding a standard of winning from our football team is irresponsible. It's like calling people like you, who will support Dodge regardless of our performance, "win haters".

GoMeanGreen1999 · October 16, 2010

Not exactly. There were a high number of returning starters, especially on defense when TD got here. The "bare cupboard" means there was not that much talent. Yes, we had some nice players like we do today, but overall the talent cupboard is pretty bare. Disagree?

Just re-read CBG's post again.

island eagle · October 16, 2010

Labeling fans "Dodge haters" just because they are demanding a standard of winning from our football team is irresponsible. It's like calling people like you, who will support Dodge regardless of our performance, "win haters".

Some folks need to go back at look at the whole sequence with TD. First off, that first and second year, players from other teams were laughing at our "high school" offense and defense. The head coach did NOT HAVE TO go with this...he CHOOSE to do so against the better judgment of those who remember the Parker era. Second, he CHOOSE to delay taking the job rather than begin recruiting when everyone else was on the trail. Third, his teams, even this year, continue to make the same mistakes as they did when he took over....there has been a pitifully slow learning curve on special teams, dumb penalties, poor time outs and play selection. That kind of think will kill even teams with lots of talent.

If we don't want to end up playing with 2,000 people in the stands then there better be a big change. The die-hards on this board may be there, but I know lots of fans who are totally turned off and it shows up in the attendance.

foutsrouts · October 16, 2010

Some folks need to go back at look at the whole sequence with TD. First off, that first and second year, players from other teams were laughing at our "high school" offense and defense. The head coach did NOT HAVE TO go with this...he CHOOSE to do so against the better judgment of those who remember the Parker era. Second, he CHOOSE to delay taking the job rather than begin recruiting when everyone else was on the trail. Third, his teams, even this year, continue to make the same mistakes as they did when he took over....there has been a pitifully slow learning curve on special teams, dumb penalties, poor time outs and play selection. That kind of think will kill even teams with lots of talent.

If we don't want to end up playing with 2,000 people in the stands then there better be a big change. The die-hards on this board may be there, but I know lots of fans who are totally turned off and it shows up in the attendance.

If it were not for the new stadium, there would likely be a lot of talk out there about us giving up on football or once again dropping down another level. I don't consider myself a "Dodge hater", but that new stadium may be the only thing that has saved us from his tenure here. Hope I'm wrong, we win out this year, and we all live happily ever after.

mad dog · October 16, 2010

Part of my job is performance measurement - figuring out what the roles and responsibilities of various operating departments are, and then determining whether or not they are fulfilling them. Whenever we start developing these measures, we must first ask the question: what is the goal of the operation? A police department's goal might be keeping the crime rate low - an accounts payable department might be getting all invoices paid within 30 days. Whatever the metric is, it must answer the question "why have a (fill in the blank) department."

You can't define success or failure without first agreeing on the task to be performed. Different people on the board believe that the job of the head football coach is anything from winning football games to developing young men into leaders. It may be either of these, both of them, or neither. I suspect that whatever the expectations of Todd Dodge are, they're spelled out in his contract. If I had a copy of the contract in front of me, I could probably tell you what he was hired to do.

If he was hired to win games, he's clearly failed in that. A 14% winning rate cannot be treated as anything but an unequivocable disaster. Now, if leadership development is a goal, then thing like graduation rates, dropout rates, and incidence of post-college incarceration may be effective measures to determine if this is being done. There may be others, like fund raising and UNT Athletics marketing; and those would have more subjective (though no less compelling) measures.

Most of the time, these measures are clearly weighted in the contract (winning games may be 50%, fund raising 25%, leadership development 25%). If they aren't, then that's probably what we should be debating.

Success or failure isn't arbitrary, but it can look that way if everyone is grading different functions.

foutsrouts · October 16, 2010

IF coaching changes have to occur it would be my wish that the entire staff remains with Coach Canales as HC and Coach Dodge as OC and everyone else stay in place.

For the sake of continuity moving into the new stadium, I wouldn't be totally against that idea for ONE season IF we are able to pull off 5+ wins this year (or 4 including K-State) . I don't think that Canales has proven enough yet to warrant handing him the head coaching reins for more than a short trial period.

Edited October 16, 2010 by foutsrouts

James Mosley · October 16, 2010

1978 - Hayden Fry

Last coach to coach at North Texas with a North Texas winning record better than his losing record. Every coach North Texas has had since Fry in 1978 has left the school with a losing record. Every single coach brought to North Texas has left with a losing record. Get over the hump people stick with one man who knows football, who knows how and accepts how to make changes, who can stand up against adversity without pointing fingers, who can actually lead, who can win and will win, who, if let go, WILL move on and do great things somewhere else while the proven track record of North Texas will continue. Sometimes you gotta make a stand and fight through. If all of the naysayers can not see the difference in this team and program today compared to three years ago I say again, Dodge haters. Not one coach since 1978 has left North Texas with a winning record.

CMJ · October 16, 2010

Yeah, and Dodge has the worst record of any of them.

Side Show Joe · October 16, 2010

1978 - Hayden Fry
Last coach to coach at North Texas with a North Texas winning record better than his losing record. Every coach North Texas has had since Fry in 1978 has left the school with a losing record. Every single coach brought to North Texas has left with a losing record. Get over the hump people stick with one man who knows football, who knows how and accepts how to make changes, who can stand up against adversity without pointing fingers, who can actually lead, who can win and will win, who, if let go, WILL move on and do great things somewhere else while the proven track record of North Texas will continue. Sometimes you gotta make a stand and fight through. If all of the naysayers can not see the difference in this team and program today compared to three years ago I say again, Dodge haters. Not one coach since 1978 has left North Texas with a winning record.

This is true. No North Texas coach since Fry has had a winning record, but do any have a worse winning percentage then Dodge?

oldguystudent · October 16, 2010

foutsrouts · October 16, 2010

1978 - Hayden Fry
Last coach to coach at North Texas with a North Texas winning record better than his losing record. Every coach North Texas has had since Fry in 1978 has left the school with a losing record. Every single coach brought to North Texas has left with a losing record. Get over the hump people stick with one man who knows football, who knows how and accepts how to make changes, who can stand up against adversity without pointing fingers, who can actually lead, who can win and will win, who, if let go, WILL move on and do great things somewhere else while the proven track record of North Texas will continue. Sometimes you gotta make a stand and fight through. If all of the naysayers can not see the difference in this team and program today compared to three years ago I say again, Dodge haters. Not one coach since 1978 has left North Texas with a winning record.

If he does great things somewhere else, I suspect that it will have to be on the high school level for the near future at least. I think that his coaching reputation at this level has probably been tarnished enough to preclude his even getting a lower level FBS OC position anytime soon. I wish him the best, but regardless of what anyone thinks of him, it's rabbit pulling out of the hat time, and that rabbit pulling better begin tonight.

shaft · October 16, 2010

1978 - Hayden Fry
Get over the hump people stick with one man who knows football, who knows how and accepts how to make changes, who can stand up against adversity without pointing fingers, who can actually lead, who can win and will win, who, if let go, WILL move on and do great things somewhere else while the proven track record of North Texas will continue.

Don't let the facts get in the way of your rant.

Dodge is proven failure. He hasn't won games, he's not winning games, there no reason to believe is going to start winning games.

Dodge doesn't just own the record as the worst coach in school he also owns some of the worst losses in school history.

Just because the team is no better than the all time low Dodge created doesn't mean he's going to start winning games.

Competitive high schools wouldn't even keep a guy with Dodge's record.

Green Mean · October 16, 2010

Stebo,

I think the CEO is RV here. TD is the highest executive. Just sayin.

James Mosley · October 16, 2010

32 years of coaches packing up and leaving without winning records. One more year must really seem like an eternity to some haters. i have a clear understanding who I'm debating with. Time to move on....

Edited October 16, 2010 by James Mosley

VideoEagle · October 16, 2010

Part of my job is performance measurement - figuring out what the roles and responsibilities of various operating departments are, and then determining whether or not they are fulfilling them. Whenever we start developing these measures, we must first ask the question: what is the goal of the operation? A police department's goal might be keeping the crime rate low - an accounts payable department might be getting all invoices paid within 30 days. Whatever the metric is, it must answer the question "why have a (fill in the blank) department."

You can't define success or failure without first agreeing on the task to be performed. Different people on the board believe that the job of the head football coach is anything from winning football games to developing young men into leaders. It may be either of these, both of them, or neither. I suspect that whatever the expectations of Todd Dodge are, they're spelled out in his contract. If I had a copy of the contract in front of me, I could probably tell you what he was hired to do.

If he was hired to win games, he's clearly failed in that. A 14% winning rate cannot be treated as anything but an unequivocable disaster. Now, if leadership development is a goal, then thing like graduation rates, dropout rates, and incidence of post-college incarceration may be effective measures to determine if this is being done. There may be others, like fund raising and UNT Athletics marketing; and those would have more subjective (though no less compelling) measures.

Most of the time, these measures are clearly weighted in the contract (winning games may be 50%, fund raising 25%, leadership development 25%). If they aren't, then that's probably what we should be debating.

Success or failure isn't arbitrary, but it can look that way if everyone is grading different functions.

Very good analysis. There is more to being a head coach than just winning games, but that is the single most important component.

foutsrouts · October 16, 2010

32 years of coaches packing up and leaving without winning records. One more year must really seem like an eternity to some haters. i have a clear understanding who I'm debating with. Time to move on....

Most of them were sent packing never to be heard from again.

Green Mean · October 16, 2010

One more year must really seem like an eternity to some haters. i have a clear understanding who I'm debating with. Time to move on....

The people who you are debating are people that have been linked to this program for decades and will be linked to this program for decades to come. Look we get it...you love TD because he offered your son which is great because I happen to think he's a hell of a player. However you can't ignore a 6-36 record! Do you really understand what kind of record that is? There is no doubt that historically this has not been a winning program but dammit it is time to turn that tide because if we aren't then we are wasting 80 million dollars on a stupid stadium. I don't know where you work or if you work but if you needed 4 weeks or 4 months let alone 4 years to even be semi competent in your job then you would be fired because you have no use for a company. The same thing is applied here. In year 4 we are still saying oh well he is still learning and we need to give him another year. Why? If he is a good coach then he will be able fight through injuries and still produce SOMETHING in the worst football conference in the FBS. What about the 3 years before this? There weren't injuries like this year and what did he do then? Oh yeah he went a brilliant 5-31.

Side Show Joe · October 16, 2010

1978 - Hayden Fry
Last coach to coach at North Texas with a North Texas winning record better than his losing record. Every coach North Texas has had since Fry in 1978 has left the school with a losing record. Every single coach brought to North Texas has left with a losing record. Get over the hump people stick with one man who knows football, who knows how and accepts how to make changes, who can stand up against adversity without pointing fingers, who can actually lead, who can win and will win, who, if let go, WILL move on and do great things somewhere else while the proven track record of North Texas will continue. Sometimes you gotta make a stand and fight through. If all of the naysayers can not see the difference in this team and program today compared to three years ago I say again, Dodge haters. Not one coach since 1978 has left North Texas with a winning record.

I'm not asking the guy to walk on water, or cure cancer. I just want the guy to win more games then he loses. We play in the Sun Belt for crying out loud. I don't think we are asking for too much. If you want to label me or other fans "Dodge haters" for that, it's your choice, but I think it's weak.

Every coach going back to 1979 has a better winning percentage then Dodge, and none of them had a winning record. We got rid of all of them. This whole argument reminds me of those schools that don't give ribbons at field day, because they don't want kids to feel bad when they lose.

foutsrouts · October 16, 2010

The people who you are debating are people that have been linked to this program for decades and will be linked to this program for decades to come. Look we get it...you love TD because he offered your son which is great because I happen to think he's a hell of a player. However you can't ignore a 6-36 record! Do you really understand what kind of record that is? There is no doubt that historically this has not been a winning program but dammit it is time to turn that tide because if we aren't then we are wasting 80 million dollars on a stupid stadium. I don't know where you work or if you work but if you needed 4 weeks or 4 months let alone 4 years to even be semi competent in your job then you would be fired because you have no use for a company. The same thing is applied here. In year 4 we are still saying oh well he is still learning and we need to give him another year. Why? If he is a good coach then he will be able fight through injuries and still produce SOMETHING in the worst football conference in the FBS. What about the 3 years before this? There weren't injuries like this year and what did he do then? Oh yeah he went a brilliant 5-31.

If we were 6-36 (wins inflated with WKU) in the Big Twelve I would grin and bear it, but I would not exactly be a happy camper. We are in the SBC.

CMJ · October 16, 2010

Mr. Moseley - name one school in FBS football that would be okay with 6-36.

GoMeanGreen1999 · October 16, 2010

32 years of coaches packing up and leaving without winning records. One more year must really seem like an eternity to some haters. i have a clear understanding who I'm debating with. Time to move on....

What if next year we have another rash of injuries, then do you cut ties, or give him ANOTHER year? Just curious since we don't know what the future holds.

James Mosley · October 16, 2010

The people who you are debating are people that have been linked to this program for decades and will be linked to this program for decades to come. Look we get it...you love TD because he offered your son which is great because I happen to think he's a hell of a player. However you can't ignore a 6-36 record! Do you really understand what kind of record that is? There is no doubt that historically this has not been a winning program but dammit it is time to turn that tide because if we aren't then we are wasting 80 million dollars on a stupid stadium. I don't know where you work or if you work but if you needed 4 weeks or 4 months let alone 4 years to even be semi competent in your job then you would be fired because you have no use for a company. The same thing is applied here. In year 4 we are still saying oh well he is still learning and we need to give him another year. Why? If he is a good coach then he will be able fight through injuries and still produce SOMETHING in the worst football conference in the FBS. What about the 3 years before this? There weren't injuries like this year and what did he do then? Oh yeah he went a brilliant 5-31.

Do you really understand how good this team was set to be? NO YOU DON'T GET IT. no one will because this team didn't get a chance to prove it on the field due to the freaking injuries. Big difference in my job and a coaching job. I'm not judged by people not in my profession and who have never coached in their life or much less even played the freaking game of football. What would be your next move as a head coach at north texas. Pleae give us some examples. Maybe bring in a proven OC, done that, maybe bring in a proven college DC, done that, how about staff all position coaches with proven college experience, done that, or maybe find a field goal kicker to help with kicking, done that....Again I'm repeating all my points and getting nothing in return except the same ole, look at his record. I agree the record sucks but again, changes have been made each year to improve. Let him go, he will be fine, North Texas on the other hand will still be riding the same roller coaster....

P.S. - you gotta like and agree with the changes made over the last three years right? if not why?