It's All About The Injuries

[Censored by Laurie]

No.

It seems I may have started the pragmatism obituary in the wrong forum.

[James Mosley]

Stick to what you said last season. If the wins don't come, END OF ARGUMENT.

Your impassioned plea for patience might carry more weight if you weren't working from a script that seems to roll out every year around this time.

I rolled it out last year because I believed in the team and coaching, I rolled it out this year because this team would have kicked butt if not for injuries. I can still stand by win and end of argument or lose and end of argument, not a problem here. Just remember, UNT has a longer history of losing and not keeping a good coach than Coach Dodge has of not being successful. It is simply my opinion that UNT has a coach who could be a long term solution to stability and winning if everyone could just hang on.

[NT80]

I certainly appreciate and respect your loyalty and support of Coach Dodge but in the end, this is not a decision you and I make, it will fall on RV, President Rawlins, The BOR and Chancellor Jackson. GMG!

This.

The program needs wins.

[Green Mean]

It is simply my opinion that UNT has a coach who could be a long term solution to stability and winning if everyone could just hang on.

I won't disagree with you there. Maybe TD has something but we have been the lab rat long enough to see if he will eventually succeed or not. I hope TD the best but he has royally failed here and he has been here 1-2 years too long. Time is not on NT's side. With the new stadium opening, school pride in a turning point, and the talk of the whole college football and athletics landscape changing, a move must be made in which we hope to get results. It's debatable to even talk about how much credibility we had in the first place but we need a guy with some instant credibility and splash.

[TheTastyGreek]

One who still can recruit some of the best available Texas talent out there

Stefan Huber.

Remember what you told us about how he'd be in the boat if anyone ever bothered to offer him a scholarship? How he would have bailed out on any other offers that were on the table if Todd Dodge offered him a chance to come play at North Texas?

So, was that a failure of a coach evaluating talent? A failure of a coach to capitalize on an opportunity? Or was Stefan Huber just not a viable D-1 football player? Because Art Briles thought he was good enough for the Big 12.

Another year isn't going to teach Dodge how to manage the clock. How to use a timeout. How to have a play ready to go when the game finally resumes after a lengthy injury delay. Injuries aren't the reason that we don't know what we're doing and burn a timeout when we've had several minutes to figure it out because a player was laying on the field hurt. That's not 4 years ago, that's last week.

And as for special teams... We're still shanking kickoffs out of bounds, we're still failing to execute extra points. Our punter is 4th in TOTAL PUNTING YARDS. Because he gets to punt CONSTANTLY. In net yardage per punt, he's 51st.

Have I missed something about special teams that is not better now than three years ago.

Yes. The whole damn unit.

Net Punting: North Texas - 91st. (2007: 75th)

Punt Returns: North Texas - 108th. (2007: 75th)

Kick Returns: North Texas - 62nd. Less terrible, but still the bottom half of NCAA football. (2007: 113th)

Punt Return Defense: North Texas - 82nd. (2007: 85th, but allowed fewer yards per return than this year's unit.)

Kick Return Defense: North Texas - 47th. Our star unit. The one with no touchbacks and multiple out-of-bounds penalties. (2007: 83rd)

So the elements of special teams that have improved in 3 years have been Kickoff Returns (about 3 yards per return, still in the bottom half of D-1) and Kick Return Defense (by a yard and a half, and I don't remember kicks flying out of bounds in 2007).

Every year, same story. I can appreciate that you've got a personal fondness for the coach... But just stick to what you said and let the results end the argument.

[oldguystudent]

I think my reading gland has suffered irreparable injury from this thread and is out for the season. Otherwise, I'm sure it would be vying for thread supremacy and a bid in the bowler hat.

Edited October 15, 2010 by oldguystudent

[cwb]

Stefan Huber.

Remember what you told us about how he'd be in the boat if anyone ever bothered to offer him a scholarship? How he would have bailed out on any other offers that were on the table if Todd Dodge offered him a chance to come play at North Texas?

So, was that a failure of a coach evaluating talent? A failure of a coach to capitalize on an opportunity? Or was Stefan Huber just not a viable D-1 football player? Because Art Briles thought he was good enough for the Big 12.

Another year isn't going to teach Dodge how to manage the clock. How to use a timeout. How to have a play ready to go when the game finally resumes after a lengthy injury delay. Injuries aren't the reason that we don't know what we're doing and burn a timeout when we've had several minutes to figure it out because a player was laying on the field hurt. That's not 4 years ago, that's last week.

And as for special teams... We're still shanking kickoffs out of bounds, we're still failing to execute extra points. Our punter is 4th in TOTAL PUNTING YARDS. Because he gets to punt CONSTANTLY. In net yardage per punt, he's 51st.

Yes. The whole damn unit.

Net Punting: North Texas - 91st. (2007: 75th)

Punt Returns: North Texas - 108th. (2007: 75th)

Kick Returns: North Texas - 62nd. Less terrible, but still the bottom half of NCAA football. (2007: 113th)

Punt Return Defense: North Texas - 82nd. (2007: 85th, but allowed fewer yards per return than this year's unit.)

Kick Return Defense: North Texas - 47th. Our star unit. The one with no touchbacks and multiple out-of-bounds penalties. (2007: 83rd)

So the elements of special teams that have improved in 3 years have been Kickoff Returns (about 3 yards per return, still in the bottom half of D-1) and Kick Return Defense (by a yard and a half, and I don't remember kicks flying out of bounds in 2007).

Every year, same story. I can appreciate that you've got a personal fondness for the coach... But just stick to what you said and let the results end the argument.

Just because you have a STATOMATIC 3000,or whatever you use, doesn't mean you have to stick it in every one's face all the time.

[wardly]

I was going to wait until there was a, "without a doubt", chance of North Texas winning the conference to write this but thought, what the heck, write it now. This team without a doubt would be sitting undefeated in conference play right now and probably would have beaten Rice and Army if not for the freaking injuries. With that being said all those who think Dodge has not turned this program around are simply just Dodge haters and will always be Dodge haters. The man has turned the program around. The football program is leaps and bounds ahead of where it was four years ago. Injuries have cost this team a chance of proving all naysayers wrong. Look at the bandaid team which plays each week. Not one player has given up on their coach or school. If the players played like they wanted the coach gone you wouldn't see the attitude and effort on the field you are seeing right now. You can look at it as WIN 7 or else if you chose but to me the program has arrived. The deck is stacked against North Texas winning those 7 games this year but it's not because this team was not prepared. Coach Dodge and his staff are the right combination for the future of this football program. The AD is put in a hard spot but hopefully it is one he can figure out by looking at the program itself and not the wins. The wins were there this year but so were the injuries! Name one team in the nation who could have survived this. Heck, University of Texas loses one QB and a few defensive guys and now they struggle. No I'm not comparing us to them.....just saying.....

this is one of worse coached teams i have ever seen, especially T.d.'s 1st two years. he inherited a defense with 9 returning starters, 2 of which were pre season all conference, and turned them into a joke. he has recruited poorly, and has nearly 20 seniors on a team that was picked next to last in the belt. he is a bad hire, and must be replaced. i feel for the injured players, and admit having seen nothing like it in my decades of watching college football. having said that, life isn't fair or there wouldn't be wheelchairs. its time for a change.

[MeanGreenHoops]

I'm glad this was brought up. The real issue here is not if this coaching staff could get it done, but the fact that it took 4 years to get to this. If we had started with this staff 4 years ago, we'd be a realistic conference contender by now. Because there are always holes on a college team, just so much turnover., that you can't afford to go three years figuring it out.

We might be undefeated in conference without the injuries, but we lost the rice game with a mostly first team. Tune was hurt on the next to the last play of the game. It would have taken a miracle to win anyway. Plus there are still bonehead plays that you don't see coming from other coaching staffs, like waiting 15 seconds to call timeouts at the end of the game last week. Only the people on the inside can know why that happens.

Rick backed himself into a corner with the wins thing. I get it that he was reaching out to the fans because the few hundred here were disgruntled, but it has backfired because the unthinkable has happened. He's down to a 4th QB.

The real question is should Dodge stay when it took 4 years to get to square one? DO you punish for that learning curve.

And second, do you think he really has turned the corner and that next year he would win. I'd say that's doubtful, because as improved as the team is especially on defense, there still aren't many play makers. Check how many turnovers we are causing or how many big plays we have. Not many.

So then you say, well Dodge still isn't getting impact talent, so he probably can't get it done, because the potentail recruits have given up on it. And if they have, then that's too much too overcome.

[akriesman]

I see posts like that from Mr Mosely and I start to get all excited about Dodge again. With Riley's arm being shot and the fact that Chase has been thrown in a tough situation, I am surprised just how competitive we have been over the last 2 weeks. Teams are crowding the L.O.S. and daring Dunbar to run the ball. Yet, we still have had a chance to win the last 2 games.

And then reality sets in for me.............

With all the good that I am seeing on the field from an injury-depleted team, I start to think about the thing that drives me most crazy about this team......discipline. Over the last 3+ years, NT has been the most undiscipled team that I have ever seen regarding late hits at the worst times. There is no excuse for the late hits that have just killed this team.

I really wish that we could have pulled off some of those close loses. But in the end, the stupid penalties and mental blunders are still costing us games. Unfortunately, I lay a lot of the blame for that on Dodge, despite my appreciation for the man.

I would be interested in Mr Mosely's opinion on the critical penalties that have plagued this team. I am not being sarcastic, I REALLY want a reason to not blame the coaching staff for those issues.

On a side note......if by some slight chance TD is retained after this season, I at least hope that some of you guys will still support the program. No matter what happens, we have a beautiful new stadium that will draw excitement for next season.

Edited October 15, 2010 by akriesman

[Got5onIt]

I'm glad your son came to NT and can't help but think your passion is coming from a skewed point of view. You have a personal tie to TD since your son is a player, so I can understand your like for the guy. We can always speculate on the what ifs, but in the end only the W's count. Dodge wont be here next year and I don't think this football program can risk giving him another year.

[adman]

Just because you have a STATOMATIC 3000,or whatever you use, doesn't mean you have to stick it in every one's face all the time.

That's not a statomatic he's sticking in your face timmy.

[PlummMeanGreen]

If TDodge & team pull out the necessary miracle for him to return then he returns. UNT could not stand the negative pub to not bring him back and the major part of the criteria would be a bowl team with less than .500 wins this season and as we all know--this has happened before at UNT with DD

DD in his supposed "last year" post ULM loss then ran the SBC table, went 5 & 6 and took his team to the first NO's Bowl. It was one of the most continuous weird bounces of the football I'd ever heard of in the NCAA that created this back in 2001. Oh yes, it was great for all of the UNT community and DD's negative stuff with many fans would not come until his last 2 years, specifically his last year when our school colors turned black for one game.

Fact is: With the injuries, if the Mean Green are able to run the table and get to NO's because ( I presume) of a tie for the SBC championship, then TDodge deserves the same opportunity that DD got with his 5 & 6 bowl team. I don't think it possible because of so many starters out, but it could still be considered a 12'th hour probable? Just my .02. I think TDodge is a class act who has brought everything back we all wanted except more "W's."

GMG!

Edited October 15, 2010 by PlummMeanGreen

[GreenFlag]

Another reason we CAN'T retain TD is recruiting. It's been dead for 2 years now. If he stays on, make it 3 years. We are a non player on the recruiting trail. One good recruiting class in four is not a recipe for success.

Just like the end of the DD era, the cupboard is pretty bare for next year. We are losing too much of the talent we have to graduation. We are right back where we were in 2007. This year was going to be as good as we were going to be for a while. If Dodge had gotten it done, then maybe he could make a splash in recruiting. At least there was a good story to tell (four full classes of his recruits, etc.) Difference makers are not coming to UNT with Dodge at the helm and his record of futility. You can only sell "it's not his fault" for so long. We have some nice players for sure, but our team is not loaded with talent. If we were, we would be winning more ballgames. I know this sounds harsh, but it's true.

Unless we make a splash hire who infuses some serious JUCO talent, we are going to struggle to win a game next year. I hope next year is as bad as it ever gets.

Edited October 15, 2010 by GreenFlag

[gangrene]

Answer one question:

What has the man not done over the last 3 - 4 years to make this program better? Please show your football intelligance and come up with something other than win football games as your answer. Winning was coming until they slipped down to #4 QB, #3 center, etc.... I can say this team would have won with confidence simply because of how they are hanging with each team they are playing. This is how I measure where the program is NOW and not where or why it was 2 - 3 years ago. Bring in Leach next year and he wins and you give him all the credit.

I understand your point and that point is oftentimes validated at programs throughout the country (but don't tell that to Larry Coker). However, I don't, not even for a second, think that Leach would be fielding the same team Dodge did in game one (or one game) of 2010. That's not to say we don't have a talented team, but the talent Leach (or any other coach that has been highly successful at nationally-respected top 25 programs) would bring in would surpass anything Dodge has recruited thus far and/or would be able to recruit within the next 3 years. We received a nice recruiting spike the first couple of years Dodge was here, but that spike flat-lined long ago.

I have seen a LOT of improvement in this season vs. the last three, but I'm not sure it's enough to placate me for another season of Dodge ball. While Dodge has obviously learned, adapted and gained invaluable experience during his stint at North Texas, I'm not convinced it's any more valuable than what another experienced FBS coach can bring to the table.

I understand injuries have been a MAJOR issue this year and the number and positions that have been impacted would seem to defy all odds. Yet, successful programs have depth and players step up when another goes down - that's when new stars are found. We've seen that on this team, to an extent. But our depth is no where near where it should be and that's been exposed.

And then there's the whole 7-win ultimatum that's been mentioned ad nauseum. RV has dug this hole and now he'll have to decide what to do with it. Since there seems to be so much questioning over whether or not he really gave that mandate, I suppose he could always back track and say that he was mis-quoted or misunderstood. I doubt he'd have many believers and he'd risk disenfranchising the alumni/fan base as well as losing all credibility with the coaching staff. And, even then, there's still no guarantee Dodge can or will turn this into a winning program.

I know change can be scary but the past and present have been pretty scary too. Without knowing who would be interested in UNT for the salary we have to offer, it's difficult to say a change is the only choice. Still, I have to believe that we can get a qualified coach, whose experience, success and notoriety eclipses what Dodge currently has, even after his four years of on-the-job training.

[PlummMeanGreen]

Another reason we CAN'T retain TD is recruiting. It's been dead for 2 years now. If he stays on, make it 3 years. We are a non player on the recruiting trail. One good recruiting class in four is not a recipe for success.

Just like the end of the DD era, the cupboard is pretty bare for next year. We are losing too much of the talent we have to graduation. We are right back where we were in 2007. This year was going to be as good as we were going to be for a while. If Dodge had gotten it done, then maybe he could make a splash in recruiting. At least there was a good story to tell (four full classes of his recruits, etc.) Difference makers are not coming to UNT with Dodge at the helm and his record of futility. You can only sell "it's not his fault" for so long. We have some nice players for sure, but our team is not loaded with talent. If we were, we would be winning more ballgames. I know this sounds harsh, but it's true.

yed

Unless we make a splash hire who infuses some serious JUCO talent, we are going to struggle to win a game next year. I hope next year is as bad as it ever gets.

Of course, with all the starters out this season would we have really known about his last 2 recruiting classes? His defense has sharpened up and even special teams have shown signs of new life.

TDodge came to Denton on the cusp of DD's (reported on this board) 2 bad recruiting classes. There were a few bright spots left behind but many of DD's who stayed for the Dodge Era I understand had to be run off due to disciplinary problems.

Not making excuses for TDodge, but he did not come into the best of situations in late December his hiring year especially in light of the fact that there were even no guarantees for a new stadium his first year either as I recall.

This program will probably have a new coach next Fall, but there are reasons for that, too, and we know lack of "W's" is at the top of the list. Winning all those close games last year would have given him the capital to bargain with this year with the injuries and all, but was just not mean't to be I suppose.

GMG!

Edited October 15, 2010 by PlummMeanGreen

[OldTimer]

I am looking at the record over the last 3 - 4 years and I too see a losing record. I also see a Head Coach who made changes along the way, brought in college coaches, gave up his OC duties, brought in JC players, a coach who has done everything to correct the wrong over the last 3 - years is what I ALSO SEE. I also see a man who is exactly what this university needs heading into a new stadium. One who still can recruit some of the best available Texas talent out there, one who believes in his players, one who teaches them more than football. What I see is people giving up on someone just because they had a terrible win record over the past 3 years and they don't SEE all the changes and moves made to correct the problems. The moves and changes have been made, this team would have proven it if the injuries had not happened. Again, everything anyone can think oh this coaching staff has corrected.

For what its worth I believe NT should keep Dodge....he inherited a whale of a bad situation coming to NT...I have seen significant improvement especially this year....hurt by 14 injuries mainly to offensive players...our players have played their heart out and haven't given up...and don't believe any coach would do better with this team missing the same 14 injured players. Please don't compare Dodge with Dickey who constantly complained about everything UNT to the public and media ....Dodge has been a complete different type of coach: supporter of NT in the same facilities and the FB program. that he inherited and worked under.

[Cr1028]

The point I'm trying to make is, sure Coach Dodge made some mistakes along the way, BUT, the way he has handled and adapted to correcting these mistakes speaks volumes of his character, his coaching abilities and his freaking leadership towards our players. The man is exactly what this college needs to go forward. Again, get past the past and look at where he is NOOOOOOOWWW. Look at what he had prepared entering this season. Get over the wins not coming fast enough and look at the long haul. So what if it took 4 years to get here, it's here, he fielded a winner, he has a college experienced coaching staff, he gave up his OC duties and hired a college experienced OC. I don't think he agreed all this needed to be done, but he did it anyway. He has dipped into the JC ranks to get players, he has done many of the right things to turn the program around and IT IS TURNED AROUND other than 7 freaking wins. If the team stays healthy, wins 7, goes to a bowl everyone thinks the corner has been turned, but since the wins are not there, "injuries", everyone thinks he failed. EVERYONE who thinks this program is not better now compared to four years ago has lost connection to what this program should be built on. If I was doing all this over again and I knew ahead of time my kid was fixing to attend a program which would lose as much as it has over the last four years I'd still encourage my kid to attend simply because of what I knew he would learn from Coach Dodge and Coach Gandy. Experience is what Coach Dodge has gained over the last four years he already knew how to coach. Let the past go and look at the program right now and stay focused on the plan set four years ago.

I have to agree with this. As disgusted as I have been with losing, you have to admit he is right. It is clear that Deloach has made leaps and bounds with this defense. That is clear. Special teams has improved significantly. I think the biggest fault was TD's pride wouldn't let him give up the reigns to the offense until this year.

I am convinced with a little more Canales we can get this thing done. I hope we win out and this staff gets to stay.

I am very hopeful we don't have to sit through a year like Dickey's and Dodge's rookie year in our first year in the new stadium.

[CaribbeanGreen]

The fact that this thread has devolved into comments regarding the "bare cupboard" TD inherited yet again - despite the fact that it's the most refuted, crapped on, torn apart, and spit out tired B.S. argument in board history- kind of means we've reached the end of the argument. Don't make TTG rape and pillage you all again.

[LoveMG]

For what its worth I believe NT should keep Dodge....he inherited a whale of a bad situation coming to NT...I have seen significant improvement especially this year....hurt by 14 injuries mainly to offensive players...our players have played their heart out and haven't given up...and don't believe any coach would do better with this team missing the same 14 injured players. Please don't compare Dodge with Dickey who constantly complained about everything UNT to the public and media ....Dodge has been a complete different type of coach: supporter of NT in the same facilities and the FB program. that he inherited and worked under.

i would like to see another coach with this team then i will get back to you on who did the better job. until then we are getting killed in recruiting.

this is an entertainment product. i am tired of all the constant sad endings.

[stebo]

This is a business. The CEO of the business has not produced the results needed. We are going out of business. I posted a request after the FAU win for some extra homecoming tickets and a couple of our greatest fans let me know that they could help out. I have now been offered more than 2 dozen tickets and 6 parking passes for HOMECOMING. Homecoming is when fans come back to the school and this is crucial to growing the business for the future. The football program IS the window by which the world views The University of North Texas. I am probably one of the biggest fans of Dodge - but I really had no opinion when he was hired - but he has carried himself in such a way that I can't help but WANT for him to succeed. But he still has to succeed. Injuries or not - we still have to win. We cannot afford to lose any more fans, especially headed into a fund raising campaign to pay for the other half of the stadium. We just cannot afford it. Harry said it best - the stadium is the single biggest investment that the University has made to date. The thing has yet to be paid for. We have fans - very good, very loyal fans - that pay into the program year in and year out. Those fans are telling me that they will not pay for another year of Dodge ball. I have been told that only 15% of the club seats have been bought. Our loyal sponsors have bought suites but we have plenty of them left. This is business and you simply cannot let emotion get in the way of smart business.

I also think that you have to look at this in another way - Dodge hasn't been working for free this entire time. He has turned around the program, gotten rid of some disturbing behaviour, and brought in some excellent assistant coaches to right the ship. It takes a big man to lay his ego aside and let others do the work in the "specialty" that he was brought here to carry out. His son has given up his body for the team. The players have not given up - I don't think that they have - and I don't think that they will. But he has been paid to do this, he wasn't working pro-bono. This isn't a charity or a non-profit entity - this is a business and we cannot afford to lose another customer. The team needs to win, plain and simple. The Sun Belt is having one of its worst years to date - maybe THE worst. We are currently ranked (as a conference) behind 6 FCS conferences, including the Southland. A coach should be able to win in this conference - at least half of his games. RV only scheduled one body bag game this year (and has done an outstanding job of only scheduling one "money" game for the entire Dodge tenure). All of the excuses have been used up - and I do believe that we should be able to win in this conference with our back-ups. The season is not over. Dickey was staring down the barrel of a 1-4 record when he rolled off 5 straight wins to save his job. Dodge can still do it - and I really believe that. If he does that, he will have a job. If not - its just business. Nothing personal.

[shaft]

Since we can't blame the coach, maybe we should blame the players.

[Green Crazy]

The fact that this thread has devolved into comments regarding the "bare cupboard" TD inherited yet again - despite the fact that it's the most refuted, crapped on, torn apart, and spit out tired B.S. argument in board history- kind of means we've reached the end of the argument. Don't make TTG rape and pillage you all again.

it's not that far off from the truth. plus, two of his recruiting years were hindered a bit by the apr scores...courtesy of dd. dodge fixed that and he had this team moving in the right direction...just got the s*** end of the stick this year.

if we're gonna get rid of dodge then we should keep everyone else in place, that's the only way i see us improving next year. if we blow the staff up again, then there is going to be another down year due to the changes. if we don't care about our record in the first year of the new stadium, then make the change. if we do, then keeping this staff with dodge or without is our only hope of opening the stadium with a winning season.

[island eagle]

it's not that far off from the truth. plus, two of his recruiting years were hindered a bit by the apr scores...courtesy of dd. dodge fixed that and he had this team moving in the right direction...just got the s*** end of the stick this year.

if we're gonna get rid of dodge then we should keep everyone else in place, that's the only way i see us improving next year. if we blow the staff up again, then there is going to be another down year due to the changes. if we don't care about our record in the first year of the new stadium, then make the change. if we do, then keeping this staff with dodge or without is our only hope of opening the stadium with a winning season.

We can argue this till the cows come home. You can look at the stands and see how most people feel about the need for change or not.

[eulesseagle]

For what its worth I believe NT should keep Dodge....he inherited a whale of a bad situation coming to NT...I have seen significant improvement especially this year....hurt by 14 injuries mainly to offensive players...our players have played their heart out and haven't given up...and don't believe any coach would do better with this team missing the same 14 injured players. Please don't compare Dodge with Dickey who constantly complained about everything UNT to the public and media ....Dodge has been a complete different type of coach: supporter of NT in the same facilities and the FB program. that he inherited and worked under.

Good point OldTimer.....

TD came here under terrible circumstances and has endured "Twilight Zone" circumstances. Starting Freshmen, Redshirt Freshmen, Seniors with no starting experience, ex-HS QB's, sophmores, sophmores with multiple injuries, racial alligations, all the injuries this year..............amazes me how he was able to stay in so many games last year and come close again this year to those elusive wins this year.

Appears the team does not give up...........that is a good sign attributed to coaching.

Appears the NT defense has stepped up.......thanks to Coach DeLoach.

Appears Coach Canales has brought the needed expertise of his NFL and major college coaching to our program.

Can not wait for the NFL lineman, that Coach C brought with him, to start coaching next year.

Since the mid to late sixties I have never seen an NT football program be the star in a Twilight Zone production. Boston had the "Curse of the Bambino" (oooops.....and so do the Rangers-----1st in War, 1st in Peace & Last in the American League....that's right they used to be the Washington Senators) and now I am begining to believe that Rod Serling's ghost has taken up residence in Fouts Field....four or five years ago.

IF coaching changes have to occur it would be my wish that the entire staff remains with Coach Canales as HC and Coach Dodge as OC and everyone else stay in place.

I borrowed .02 from PMG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIhAEJMe-ik&feature=related

our political corruption is the strength of our enemies

Edited October 16, 2010 by eulesseagle