Dodge On Top 10 Coaching Hotseat

LoveMG · September 17, 2010

http://www.coacheshotseat.com/index.php

THOR · September 17, 2010

http://www.coacheshotseat.com/index.php

no shiat sherlock!

Rudy · September 17, 2010

If Sherman get the boot at ATM, maybe we can make a play for him.

PlummMeanGreen · September 17, 2010

If we beat Army, it will have taken only TDodge's 3'rd game of his make/break season to get his 1'st win whereas it was DD's 6'th game of the 2001 season (which was also his make/break season) before that team had its first win. DD went on to save his job in 2001 with a 5 & 6 record plus a NO's Bowl appearance versus Colorado State.

:rolleyes: Also......a win over Army will change the entire complexion of this board's topics & threads come Sunday.

Beat Army!

GMG!

CaribbeanGreen · September 17, 2010

If we beat Army, it will have taken only TDodge's 3'rd game of his make/break season to get his 1'st win whereas it was DD's 6'th game of the 2001 season (which was also his make/break season) before that team had its first win. DD went on to save his job in 2001 with a 5 & 6 record plus a NO's Bowl appearance versus Colorado State.

Also......a win over Army will change the entire complexion of this board's topics & threads come Sunday.

Beat Army!

GMG!

I understand the Dickey comparison you've been consistently making around here lately, but this one is a bit of a stretch even by the increasingly liberal standards used in this situation, don't ya think? Dickey had 3 more wins at this point in his career than Dodge - including 4 wins over FBS teams with winning records, including a win over a 10 win Boise State team, a win @ Texas Tech in Lubbock (and another near-miss @ Tech on a last minute fumble), 3 road wins against FBS opponents, and 10 losses by 20 or more.

Dodge, by the same measure of time, has YET TO DEFEAT a FBS team with a winning record, has 1 road win over a FBS team (2 win Ball State - the WKU win was over a provisional FCS team), and has 14 losses by 20 or more.

Not to mention that after the 3 year period in question, Dodge has 31 losses to Dickey's 25. At this point, Dickey has coached exclusively in the Big West (so no "cream puff SBC" argument that is so questionable to begin with) and had quite probably the worst facilities and game day experience in the country. No athletic center. No tailgating. No new weight room. No hope of a new stadium. No strong support in the AD's office. No student athletic fee. None of the bevy of advantages this staff has had, more than canceling out any highly questionable argument about caliber of competition.... and yet even in that staff's worst times, they significantly outperformed this one.

I'm not arguing your passion, and I'd love to see a big win at Army and a miraculous job saving turnaround.... but the insinuation that Dodge winning Saturday somehow puts him ahead of Dickey's pace at any point is just not true.

Mean Green 93-98 · September 17, 2010

but the insinuation that Dodge winning Saturday somehow puts him ahead of Dickey's pace at any point is just not true.

Plumm didn't refer to their entire North Texas coaching careers, just to a single season within each of their careers.

CaribbeanGreen · September 17, 2010

Plumm didn't refer to their entire North Texas coaching careers, just to a single season within each of their careers.

I wasn't referring to just this one post, but a series of similar over the past week or so.

TheTastyGreek · September 17, 2010

I wasn't referring to just this one post, but a series of similar over the past week or so.

Then, there's also the fact that despite the miraculous turnaround... We still fired Dickey at the first semi-viable opportunity. It wasn't exactly roses and sunshine, and the streak wasn't enough to make people (administratively or in the fan base) forget the overall track record.

And Plumm (among others) was adamant that that turnaround wasn't enough to merit the man keeping his job, that RV should have followed through on his termination instincts and forced Dickey out BEFORE that miracle run. That it would have been better for the long term health and ultimate success of our program. That even though a miracle DID happen that saved his job, Dickey was still a godawful coach who nobody wanted and only managed to "succeed" against our terrible conference mates and a very rare OOC game, usually low-grade competition.

If I had it in my signature, this is where I'd defer and point out that if a Dodge miracle DOES happen, it will now have to come almost entirely against our conference mates and possibly/hopefully an OOC game against low-grade competition.

I, too, still hope to see Dodge turn the ship around and pull off what he needs to accomplish to keep his job (and, by extension, get us back on track as a football program). But even more than that, I'd love to see a little intellectual honesty here, and perhaps an admission that we're playing by a completely different set of rules then what was vocally (remember the rants about "fishin' with Bobby Ray"?) set forth just 4 short years ago. Especially in light of the relative track records and circumstances leading up to the Moments Of Truth for each coach, as so astutely put forth by CaribbeanGreen.

One more time: I want this season to finish with 7 or more wins, and I want for all of this to be a pointless waste of virtual breath.

But if it wasn't good enough to make people forgive and forget the start (not the end, which had enough ugliness in the Flanagan situations alone to justify Dickey's termination) of the last guy's tenure... Why would it be good enough now?

I don't ask for myself. Because if and when Dodge does start winning, I will very quickly and happily put all the godawful shame of the past 3 and a quarter seasons in the past and embrace the wins and the coach leading us to them.

But I still remember what people said 4 years ago when they looked back on Dickey's inauspicious start. What does it say when the same people are now using that as the benchmark for potential success?

Aquila_Viridis · September 17, 2010

I would be happy if we joined the other 9 schools in a new conference.

greenminer · September 17, 2010

I will never forget how dreadful I felt about the program after we lost to lowly LaMo in 2001. Unbelievable what transpired the following 4 years.

MTSU, specifically, was averaging 7.9 per offensive snap coming into Denton that first year. I thought we we would get blown out of the water. But we didn't. And we had a punter knock out a 79 yarder to seal the game.

shaft · September 17, 2010

A better comparison would be RV gave DD the same 6-win ultimatum.

A do have to call Tasty out on one thing, the Big West was no gem and include some of those same "terrible" conference mates.

I'm also not sure how firing DD in 2001 would have been better for the program. RV didn't extend DD contract until after the 2002 bowl win, so DD was still under scrutiny after the miracle season.

PlummMeanGreen · September 17, 2010

I understand the Dickey comparison you've been consistently making around here lately, but this one is a bit of a stretch even by the increasingly liberal standards used in this situation, don't ya think? Dickey had 3 more wins at this point in his career than Dodge - including 4 wins over FBS teams with winning records, including a win over a 10 win Boise State team, a win @ Texas Tech in Lubbock (and another near-miss @ Tech on a last minute fumble), 3 road wins against FBS opponents, and 10 losses by 20 or more.

Dodge, by the same measure of time, has YET TO DEFEAT a FBS team with a winning record, has 1 road win over a FBS team (2 win Ball State - the WKU win was over a provisional FCS team), and has 14 losses by 20 or more.

Not to mention that after the 3 year period in question, Dodge has 31 losses to Dickey's 25. At this point, Dickey has coached exclusively in the Big West (so no "cream puff SBC" argument that is so questionable to begin with) and had quite probably the worst facilities and game day experience in the country. No athletic center. No tailgating. No new weight room. No hope of a new stadium. No strong support in the AD's office. No student athletic fee. None of the bevy of advantages this staff has had, more than canceling out any highly questionable argument about caliber of competition.... and yet even in that staff's worst times, they significantly outperformed this one.

I'm not arguing your passion, and I'd love to see a big win at Army and a miraculous job saving turnaround.... but the insinuation that Dodge winning Saturday somehow puts him ahead of Dickey's pace at any point is just not true.

IN RESPONSE: Aren't we all sorta' stooping down as we compare 2 programs with less than stellar overall records of success that would be totally unacceptable at 99.9% of other NCAA FBS outpost except maybe, uh...........well, you know? If Dodge doesn't make it happen, there will be a new HFC next year.

More Problems Than Just Who Our Coach Is or Will Be As In.........why do some never flinch as supporting Bottom 25 mediocrity and suggest that we can "NEVER" do what a school like Boise or TCU has done? Will our new stadium change a few minds in that group--I doubt it as I read their post and wonder how much arsenic they had to drink today. Or will some still want an All Texas Southland Conference type cookie cutter of league so they can drive to away games (in state) at some of those historic Texas towns we've all been to all our lives anyhow? Why tain't what UNT will soon be able to do a la new stadium with those who will never do (and you know which schools I am talking about here in the Lone Star State). Think forward...

THERE! I SAID IT! If Dodge doesn't cut the mustard I think he should be fired after this season, just as myself (and many others--except BOR Chairman Bobby Ray) did in DD's 9'th season and furthermore...... I believe if TDodge is terminated he will do it with much professional grace; in other words for those of you who have forgotten: Dodge will have no black unis on any of his teams as a symbol to get "childishly" back at UNT and its alums/fans. YET.......TDodge should be given his full SBC schedule this Fall (which I believe he will anyway) during this his make/break season.

I am trying to think of any other D1 program's alums (expecially in the Lone Star State) who would have accepted their own coachs' tenure had their own coach had a 9 year cumulative record of 3 above .500 seasons with his last 2 years as losing years coupled with low ranked recruiting classe--Welcome To UNT, Todd Dodge. Anyone who can tell me of any other D1 school in Texas or beyond whose alums would have been slobber-knockin' content with that kind of record let me be the first to know so I change my mind forever and start having a mind-set of "oh, hell, it's really not that bad and our coach is a good ol' boy anyway--give him another 5 year extension to see if in his 14'th year here he can catch up to .500 in wins/losses :rolleyes: .

FWIW.........I think all our various recommendations for DD's successor only happened because (amazingly) we all sincerely wanted our school to progress and even (posssibly) go to the next level as a Top 50 football program rather than those around these part who seemed to very comfortably accepting Bottom 25 conference champions going to bowl games and maintaing an SBC'esque "we po' but we proud" mentality. This is hopefully "NOT" the same attitudes we want to take across with us to that new stadium and if it is--UNT has wasted their money--Big Time.........For Just More.....Small Time.

I ATTENDED UNT AT THE WRONG TIME I SUPPOSE: I defer to my new signature below and even believe it as a 1976 graduate of the University of North Texas. I suppose my main problem was having been a student at UNT during the 1975 season (with our Tennessee win among others & TN finished 6 & 5 that Fall, too) when my own expectations as to what UNT should use as their barometer, henceforth, was (I suppose) somewhat set in stone--would not have yours had you tasted that kind of success and over-whelming "feel good" with the national pub we got in 1975? I guess the chipping away of that stone thru the decades of "low expectations--small goals & accept just about anything attitudes" while being around those who said and still say "WE CAN'T DO THAT KIND OF THING THAT THAT DASTARDLY FRY HAD THE AUDACITY OF DOING HIS 6 YEARS IN DENTON ANYWAY!" AND HE WAS ONLY HERE 6 YEARS? Hey, give me 6 years of what Fry did than 12 years of what most we've had since would have done post-Fry--like maybe reach .500 in wins/losses in 12 or so years?

GMG!

Edited September 17, 2010 by PlummMeanGreen

Will to Win · September 17, 2010

At any other normal college, Todd would of been fired half way through the season 1 but at North Texas we wait beyond the obvious

and after those years have passed we wait even longer. wait UNT is not finished, when it is painfully obvious to the whole world

North Texas still waits.

Why does Denton endorse losing? Why does North Texas put it's fans through this crap? wake the F*** up and get this sh** fixed

I want to win, losing sucks

Edited September 17, 2010 by Will to Win

Army of Dad · September 17, 2010

At any other normal college, Todd would of been fired half way through the season 1 but at North Texas we wait beyond the obvious
and after those years have passed we wait even longer. wait UNT is not finished, when it is painfully obvious to the whole world
North Texas still waits.

Why does Denton endorse losing? Why does North Texas put it's fans through this crap? wake the F*** up and get this sh** fixed

I want to win, losing sucks

You are way off there. I am a huge Florida Gator fan and we let Ron Zook keep his job for longer than that. Lane Kiffin wasn't canned at Tennessee even with all the crap he put them through. Rick Neuheisel hasn't done much of anything at UCLA (certainly by their standards).

My point is that while I understand your hate for losing try to make some cogent points because top flight college teams don't fire coaches in year one. I want UNT to win too, but at least make some sense.

If you want to say that Dodge shouldn't have been brought back this year then you might have more of a leg to stand on.

TheTastyGreek · September 17, 2010

I am trying to think of any other D1 program's alums (expecially in the Lone Star State) who would have accepted their own coachs' tenure had their own coach had a 9 year cumulative record of 3 above .500 seasons with his last 2 years as losing years coupled with low ranked recruiting classe--Welcome To UNT, Todd Dodge. Anyone who can tell me of any other D1 school in Texas or beyond whose alums would have been slobber-knockin' content with that kind of record let me be the first to know so I change my mind forever and start having a mind-set of "oh, hell, it's really not that bad and our coach is a good ol' boy anyway--give him another 5 year extension to see if in his 14'th year here he can catch up to .500 in wins/losses .

Todd Dodge is 5-33 through 3 and a quarter seasons.

Do you realize what he's going to have to do in order to get above .500 by the middle of HIS theoretical 9th season? And I mean, just barely, one game over, skin of his teeth, bare minimum over .500.

To get there by the end of his 7th year (matching the end of the bowl run), it's even worse. He has to go 9-1 to close out this year and then go 10-2 every year for three years straight. Just to get above .500 on his career.

If that's the standard, be real about it. Everything else you wrote is somewhere between mostly and completely irrelevant to the issue CG and I were raising. Don't talk about everyone else's low standards and miserable expectations when YOU are the one who's dropping YOUR standards in this case.

Another short question: If you want Dodge out if he doesn't "cut the mustard", why do you want HIM to get his "full SBC schedule" when you didn't want that 4 years ago? And when, even with the benefit of hindsight, you changed your mind and said you didn't want it 9 years ago?

TheTastyGreek · September 17, 2010

Got a little tangled. For those of you on Career .500 watch... Dodge can lose one more game than I gave him credit for between now and New Year's Day 2014 to get and stay above .500 on his NT career.

So make that 8-2 this year, then 10-2 for 3 straight years.

Break out the party hats if you're using the .500 benchmark.

TIgreen01 · September 17, 2010

You are way off there. I am a huge Florida Gator fan and we let Ron Zook keep his job for longer than that. Lane Kiffin wasn't canned at Tennessee even with all the crap he put them through. Rick Neuheisel hasn't done much of anything at UCLA (certainly by their standards).

My point is that while I understand your hate for losing try to make some cogent points because top flight college teams don't fire coaches in year one. I want UNT to win too, but at least make some sense.

If you want to say that Dodge shouldn't have been brought back this year then you might have more of a leg to stand on.

None of those coaches or schools went through a year like what UNT did in 2008. Not to jump in here and speak for Will to Win....but 2008 was beyond bad--beyond terrible even. Considering all the off the field messes that had already happened from the first season and continued (more so even) into and through the 2008 season, do you think that Florida/Tennessee/UCLA would have kept the HC responsible? IMHO, I don't think they would have.

Edited September 17, 2010 by TIgreen01

Army of Dad · September 17, 2010

None of those coaches or schools went through a year like what UNT did in 2008. Not to jump in here and speak for Will to Win....but 2008 was beyond bad--beyond terrible even. Considering all the off the field messes that had already happened from the first season and continued (more so even) into and through the 2008 season, do you think that Florida/Tennessee/UCLA would have kept the HC responsible? IMHO, I don't think they would have.

Then enlighten me what "normal college" fired their head coach during his first season and the accompanying circumstances. That should take you some time.

PRO football teams very rarely fire a head coach after one season, even if you include the Raiders.

Green Mean · September 17, 2010

Then enlighten me what "normal college" fired their head coach during his first season and the accompanying circumstances. That should take you some time.

PRO football teams very rarely fire a head coach after one season, even if you include the Raiders.

Realistically Dodge should have been fired after year 2. If you wanted to stretch it then you would give him year 3 which was yet another epic fail. Dodge getting year number 4 is a joke at this point. The unfortunate part is that the fans are getting screwed because other than a few good players the on the field product is a dump from talent to coaching. I am a homer too and really have hope that maybe just maybe the thing might get turned around but reality is far more a superior indication of what the thing really is.

TIgreen01 · September 17, 2010

Then enlighten me what "normal college" fired their head coach during his first season and the accompanying circumstances. That should take you some time.

PRO football teams very rarely fire a head coach after one season, even if you include the Raiders.

2008 was Dodge's second season. Yes, it should take some time to dig up a situation equal to, or worse, than what went on at UNT from 2007-2008. Why? It's extremely rare.

Either way, coaches fired after 2 seasons...

Jim Zorn (NFL Redskins)

Vinny Del Negro (NBA Bulls)

Billy Gillispie (NCAA Basketball-Kentucky)

...those are easy 'Google' searches, though. Here's one closer to our situation (another easy Google search)

Lee Fobbs (NCAA Football-NC A&T--made it halfway through 3rd season--lost 28 of the 30 games he coached).

For the record, I'm not saying that it's a disgrace that Dodge was not fired after 2 seasons. I am saying that it would have been understandable, considering all the facts of the previous 2 years, had it happened....even more so after last year ended in a 2-10 record.

**Edit**

For the record, I witnessed the 2001 turnaround so I know full well what COULD happen here in 2010. I'm hoping for the same lightning to strike....but I tend to think that Dodge is lucky that he's still the UNT HFC at this point.

Edited September 17, 2010 by TIgreen01

EagleGreen · September 17, 2010

If Sherman get the boot at ATM, maybe we can make a play for him.

No to Sherman, No to Franchione. Please repeat. No!

Army of Dad · September 17, 2010

2008 was Dodge's second season. Yes, it should take some time to dig up a situation equal to, or worse, than what went on at UNT from 2007-2008. Why? It's extremely rare.

Either way, coaches fired after 2 seasons...

Jim Zorn (NFL Redskins)
Vinny Del Negro (NBA Bulls)
Billy Gillispie (NCAA Basketball-Kentucky)

...those are easy 'Google' searches, though. Here's one closer to our situation (another easy Google search)
Lee Fobbs (NCAA Football-NC A&T--made it halfway through 3rd season--lost 28 of the 30 games he coached).

For the record, I'm not saying that it's a disgrace that Dodge was not fired after 2 seasons. I am saying that it would have been understandable, considering all the facts of the previous 2 years, had it happened....even more so after last year ended in a 2-10 record.

How does any of that address my reply to Will and his contention that Dodge should have been fired in Dodge's first season?

I think what we have here is a failure to communicate. I was addressing Will saying Dodge should have been fired in year one and I said that was over the top. I was not saying anything else about year two or three.

TIgreen01 · September 17, 2010

How does any of that address my reply to Will and his contention that Dodge should have been fired in Dodge's first season?

I think what we have here is a failure to communicate. I was addressing Will saying Dodge should have been fired in year one and I said that was over the top. I was not saying anything else about year two or three.

Oh.

Well, what can I say? I can't read?

Perhaps I was just thrown off by this near unintelligible sentence he threw out there:

"At any other normal college, Todd would of been fired half way through the season 1"--Will to Win

Why was I defending that mess in the first place?!

Edited September 17, 2010 by TIgreen01

untjim1995 · September 17, 2010

None of those coaches or schools went through a year like what UNT did in 2008. Not to jump in here and speak for Will to Win....but 2008 was beyond bad--beyond terrible even. Considering all the off the field messes that had already happened from the first season and continued (more so even) into and through the 2008 season, do you think that Florida/Tennessee/UCLA would have kept the HC responsible? IMHO, I don't think they would have.

Those places can easily afford to change out coaches that quickly if they fail after two seasons. Here...well, not so much, even with a new stadium on the way. This is always about $$$$.

UNT90 · September 17, 2010

People seem to ignore Coach Dodge's own quotes. Like the quote that last years team had the talent to win at least five games. Coach Dodge made this quote before, during, and after the season (blaming bad luck for the losses).

If you have the talent to win 5 games, and don't, where does the fault lie?

I know my own personal answer to that question.

Edited September 17, 2010 by UNT90