Is Everything I Know A Lie?

MEANGREENMAN! · August 27, 2010

Today, on a whim, I picked up a copy of the North Texas Daily to see how the QB selection would be covered. While struggling through poorly structured sentences, statistical fallacies, and an obvious lack of Mean Green football knowledge there was one issue I had with the two football stories that stood out above the rest. These are the sentences I hold in question:

There were 4 instances when the Mean Green was unable to produce a turnover, and all four times it went on to lose the game.

This offseason, however, the Mean Green has been hard at work polishing that aspect of the game

I always assumed that Mean Green stood for a collective and therefore would be plural, but the more I thought about it the more I questioned my thinking. Is singular or plural correct?

Mean Green Matt · August 27, 2010

I have always believed it was plural as well...

TheTastyGreek · August 27, 2010

Today, on a whim, I picked up a copy of the North Texas Daily to see how the QB selection would be covered. While struggling through poorly structured sentences, statistical fallacies, and an obvious lack of Mean Green football knowledge there was one issue I had with the two football stories that stood out above the rest. These are the sentences I hold in question:

I always assumed that Mean Green stood for a collective and therefore would be plural, but the more I thought about it the more I questioned my thinking. Is singular or plural correct?

Talk to Crome and he'll explain it to you. Seriously. He can do a much better job of outlining AP rules and grammatical structure for sports team nicknames.

Usually, the nickname (unless it is explicitly plural) is irrelevant to pronoun/verb usage. Think of the location, not the nickname. For Orlando, the Magic IS. North Texas? The Mean Green IS. Because Orlando IS and North Texas IS. When you talk about a team, even though it's a collective, you don't use a plural form unless it's grammatically necessary. A team IS a group, but it's a singular. I don't know who made that ruling back in the ancient days of newswriting, that's just the rule. When it's a singular nickname or an ambiguous situation, then the way to go is singular.

If the nickname is explicitly plural (like the Rangers, Dodgers, Mavericks), you go with the plural form. Those teams ARE. Otherwise, the operative guideline for non-explicitly plural nicknames is to treat them as though you were talking about the location or the generic word "team". Singular form, not plural.

TheTastyGreek · August 27, 2010

Because it sounds/feels so awkward, most people who have to cover teams like the Magic, Heat, Mean Green, Golden Hurricane, etc. generally go to great lengths to refer to location rather than nickname when using the nickname would make things convoluted.

If you're careful, you can avoid the issue by writing away from it. Don't say "the Mean Green is", make it a point to say "North Texas is". Sounds like the writer for the Daily didn't do it that way.

For anyone who took a formal sports copy/newswriting course somewhere along the line... If you can explain things more clearly than I did, please feel free to make me look like a confused idiot.

And it should also be noted that different places do have different sensitivities to the issue. I learned this rule of sportswriting and broadcasting from a Southern Illinois grad and a Syracuse grad. Other places may not be as rigorous in adhering to that rule.

Just like some newswriters are more than happy to use words like "incredible" and "unbelievable" in describing their own news stories. And some folks who don't have a good background in libel/slander training throw the word "allegedly" around like it does anything to protect them legally if they fail to cite a specific person or entity as making the allegation.

Not everyone has standards.

Mean Green 93-98 · August 27, 2010

Tasty, I believe you are incorrect.

The names of sports teams, on the other hand, are treated as plurals, regardless of the form of that name. We would write that "The Yankees have signed a new third baseman" and "The Yankees are a great organization" (even if we're Red Sox fans) and that "For two years in a row, the Utah Jazz have attempted to draft a big man." When we refer to a team by the city in which it resides, however, we use the singular, as in "Dallas has attempted to secure the services of two assistant coaches that Green Bay hopes to keep." (This is decidedly not a British practice. In the UK, the city or country names by which British newspapers refer to soccer teams, for example, are used as plurals — a practice that seems odd and inconsistent to American ears: "A minute's silence will precede the game at Le Stadium today, when Toulouse play Munster, and tomorrow at Lansdowne Road, when Leinster attempt to reach their first European final by beating Perpignan" [report in the online London Times].)

http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/plurals.htm#collective_nouns

TheTastyGreek · August 27, 2010

Tasty, I believe you are incorrect.

http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/plurals.htm#collective_nouns

It depends on which authority you prefer, apparently.

This is the first time in many years that I've even had to think about it. Here's a link to a summary of the many, many different guidelines and how they all disagree with each other. If you prefer AP style, then collective nouns are ALWAYS plural for sports teams. If you prefer UPI style, collective nouns are ALWAYS singular for sports teams. If you're British, collective nouns are always plural, period. Unless you go with the BBC style guide, in which case some collective nouns can be singular, depending on which branch of the BBC issued the guidelines.

Apparently, other style guides don't specify any hard and fast rule, and say that it doesn't matter so long as you pick one specific side and stick with it consistently throughout the story/article/whatever. Seriously.

Like I said, the guy who hammered these rules into my head was a Southern Illinois grad, and apparently (every Saluki I ever worked with did it the exact same way) that place is DEVOTED to the UPI style. Deviate and be scolded, reprimanded, mocked, or worse.

I don't care, and I generally don't make an issue of it either way (even though I was drilled in what I found out tonight is the UPI style) because it isn't a sensitive point for me. I was always a stickler for graphics... Titles should always be nouns (what a person IS; a general guideline being whether you could start the title with an article: A salesman, AN investigator, THE Coach of the Year) and not verbs or descriptions (what a person DID; i.e. "Rescued a woman").

People who didn't adhere to that guideline drove me INSANE. Usually, it was a function of laziness. If Rick McKinney pulls a woman out of a burning building, then he's a RESCUER or a HEROIC FIREFIGHTER, not a "Pulled Woman from Building". If you interview little Billy Jones and he was born 10 years ago, he's a TEN YEAR OLD and not TEN YEARS OLD.

The "noun as a title" thing drives me insane when people don't follow it. Things get sloppy, ugly, and confusing when that standard gets lax.

Not that anyone asked or cares.

UNTflyer · August 27, 2010

Evan · August 27, 2010

This is usually the time of year that the posts start going south.......

but we are officially at a new low.........still a week to go.......

The season can't start soon enough.......

greeneagle69 · August 27, 2010

I cant belive I'm actually reading this *%$@# (stuff) !

TheColonyEagle · August 27, 2010

I'm working on a list of everything in my pantry.

I'll try to have it posted this afternoon.

KingDL1 · August 27, 2010

Gibert: I just wanted to say that I'm a nerd, and I'm here tonight to stand up for the rights of other nerds. I mean uh, all our lives we've been laughed at and made to feel inferior. And tonight, those bastards, they trashed our house. Why? Cause we're smart? Cause we look different? Well, we're not. I'm a nerd, and uh, I'm pretty proud of it.

Lewis: Hi, Gilbert. I'm a nerd too. I just found that out tonight. We have news for the beautiful people. There's a lot more of us then there are of you. I know there's alumni here tonight. When you went to Adams you might've been called a spazz, or a dork, or a geek. Any of you that have ever felt stepped on, left out, picked on, put down, whether you think you're a nerd or not, why don't you just come down here and join us. Okay? Come on.

Gibert: Just join us cos uh, no-one's gonna really be free until nerd persecution ends.

Green P1 · August 27, 2010

This is usually the time of year that the posts start going south.......

but we are officially at a new low.........still a week to go.......

The season can't start soon enough.......

What say we move the greatest thread of all time back in here just to get us through the week?

Do it.

houstonmeangreen · August 27, 2010

Today, on a whim, I picked up a copy of the North Texas Daily to see how the QB selection would be covered. While struggling through poorly structured sentences, statistical fallacies, and an obvious lack of Mean Green football knowledge there was one issue I had with the two football stories that stood out above the rest. These are the sentences I hold in question:

I always assumed that Mean Green stood for a collective and therefore would be plural, but the more I thought about it the more I questioned my thinking. Is singular or plural correct?

Well, all I can say is ....pretty good, pretty pretty good.

forevereagle · August 27, 2010

Green P1 · August 27, 2010

Do it.

Green Lantern · August 27, 2010

Is anything real in this world anymore?

TheTastyGreek · August 27, 2010

HEY.

DICKS.

This thread was started for serious football journalism grammar discussion. We had a great conversation going until the same old suspects came along and started making their stupid jokes.

Take your hijacks somewhere else.

Now then... Where did I leave the other part of my infinitive?

Green Lantern · August 27, 2010

HEY.

DICKS.

This thread was started for serious football journalism grammar discussion. We had a great conversation going until the same old suspects came along and started making their stupid jokes.

Take your hijacks somewhere else.

Now then... Where did I leave the other part of my infinitive?

Your not sayin...you're just sayin.

untgirl04 · August 27, 2010

It depends on which authority you prefer, apparently.

This is the first time in many years that I've even had to think about it. Here's a link to a summary of the many, many different guidelines and how they all disagree with each other. If you prefer AP style, then collective nouns are ALWAYS plural for sports teams. If you prefer UPI style, collective nouns are ALWAYS singular for sports teams. If you're British, collective nouns are always plural, period. Unless you go with the BBC style guide, in which case some collective nouns can be singular, depending on which branch of the BBC issued the guidelines.

Apparently, other style guides don't specify any hard and fast rule, and say that it doesn't matter so long as you pick one specific side and stick with it consistently throughout the story/article/whatever. Seriously.

Like I said, the guy who hammered these rules into my head was a Southern Illinois grad, and apparently (every Saluki I ever worked with did it the exact same way) that place is DEVOTED to the UPI style. Deviate and be scolded, reprimanded, mocked, or worse.

I don't care, and I generally don't make an issue of it either way (even though I was drilled in what I found out tonight is the UPI style) because it isn't a sensitive point for me. I was always a stickler for graphics... Titles should always be nouns (what a person IS; a general guideline being whether you could start the title with an article: A salesman, AN investigator, THE Coach of the Year) and not verbs or descriptions (what a person DID; i.e. "Rescued a woman").

People who didn't adhere to that guideline drove me INSANE. Usually, it was a function of laziness. If Rick McKinney pulls a woman out of a burning building, then he's a RESCUER or a HEROIC FIREFIGHTER, not a "Pulled Woman from Building". If you interview little Billy Jones and he was born 10 years ago, he's a TEN YEAR OLD and not TEN YEARS OLD.

The "noun as a title" thing drives me insane when people don't follow it. Things get sloppy, ugly, and confusing when that standard gets lax.

Not that anyone asked or cares.

Finally a topic I can really sink my teeth into. To correctly define your issue, it's a preference for active voice. In every genre of American writing, save medical writing (where identifying the actor has legal ramifications), this is the preferred sentence structure because it clearly identifies who is doing what. However, your example of little Billy Jones is really a sentence emphasis issue (stylistic preference rather than a grammatical one). For example, it may be appropriate to have a sentence 'Billy Jones is only ten years old.' if the point of emphasis is that Billy is quite young. Otherwise, 'Ten year-old Billy Jones thinks ice cream should be free.' would put the point of emphasis on the free ice cream.

My personal pet peeve is inappropriate usage of the colon (. It's end punctuation, and you should use it just like a period. **This has been a public service announcement from the Writing Police.**

TheTastyGreek · August 27, 2010

Finally a topic I can really sink my teeth into. To correctly define your issue, it's a preference for active voice. In every genre of American writing, save medical writing (where identifying the actor has legal ramifications), this is the preferred sentence structure because it clearly identifies who is doing what. However, your example of little Billy Jones is really a sentence emphasis issue (stylistic preference rather than a grammatical one). For example, it may be appropriate to have a sentence 'Billy Jones is only ten years old.' if the point of emphasis is that Billy is quite young. Otherwise, 'Ten year-old Billy Jones thinks ice cream should be free.' would put the point of emphasis on the free ice cream.

My personal pet peeve is inappropriate usage of the colon (. It's end punctuation, and you should use it just like a period. **This has been a public service announcement from the Writing Police.**

The second round of examples I used was for TV graphics, not formal written or spoken sentences. I hate poorly constructed and sloppy/non-standardized graphic formats.

Thanks for getting this thread back on track, though. If you'll excuse me, I'm off to put commas on both sides of a quotation mark.

KRAM1 · August 27, 2010

Finally a topic I can really sink my teeth into. To correctly define your issue, it's a preference for active voice. In every genre of American writing, save medical writing (where identifying the actor has legal ramifications), this is the preferred sentence structure because it clearly identifies who is doing what. However, your example of little Billy Jones is really a sentence emphasis issue (stylistic preference rather than a grammatical one). For example, it may be appropriate to have a sentence 'Billy Jones is only ten years old.' if the point of emphasis is that Billy is quite young. Otherwise, 'Ten year-old Billy Jones thinks ice cream should be free.' would put the point of emphasis on the free ice cream.

My personal pet peeve is inappropriate usage of the colon (. It's end punctuation, and you should use it just like a period. **This has been a public service announcement from the Writing Police.**

I like you better when you are wearing those spiked boots at the football games and not worrying about being the "writing police". :lol: Man, it would be tough around my house if I had the "writing police" living under tghe same roof. :scared: :whip:

UNTFan23 · August 27, 2010

I like you better when you are wearing those spiked boots at the football games and not worrying about being the "writing police". Man, it would be tough around my house if I had the "writing police" living under tghe same roof.

I've found code compilers to be far less foregiving than untgirl04. Putting a period in the wrong place can cause some huge problems that are extremely tough to troubleshoot.

Edited August 27, 2010 by UNTFan23

untgirl04 · August 27, 2010

The second round of examples I used was for TV graphics, not formal written or spoken sentences. I hate poorly constructed and sloppy/non-standardized graphic formats.

Thanks for getting this thread back on track, though. If you'll excuse me, I'm off to put commas on both sides of a quotation mark.

In my opinion, there should be no distinction between a headline on TV and something in a newspaper. If it's for public consumption it should be formal. Just further proof that texting is erroding the grammatical fabric of communication...