It's Not Our Record In Football

meangreenbob · August 22, 2010

Please don't let yourselves fall into the trap that if only we had been winning the last four years in football, UNT would be a better candidate for CUSA, MWC or in the BIG 8 or whatever. The success of most teams on the field rise and fall over the years. Look at how Texas after Darrel Royal and before the Mac Brown years struggled.

Look at the top twenty over the last forty years and see the schools that have fallen. Some have come back, others are not to be found listed anymore.

In 2004 the excuse was our facilities. Mainly, our football stadium. That is being fixed.

Lets look at Southern Miss. They seem to be the most critical of UNT on the CUSA board. They are a small school, in a small town, in a state that no one cares about. Ingress and egress to Hattisburg is aweful. This school has peaked. Their success will never warrant building a stadium larger than what they have. They can never generate the income that UNT can. If they raise ticket prices they price themselves out of the market. It is a poor state. The best they can do is feed off of a high profile conference like Houston, TCU, Rice, Baylor and SMU did while in the Southwest Conference. And as was pointed out by Arkstfan, the leeches listed above aren't rebuilding, they are building and in that respect UNT is is ahead of some of them and equal with the others.

The New World Order of College football will demand that each school supports themselves. UNT with 36,000 students, 175,000 alumni in a 3 hours driving distance, located in a metro area with 7 million, projected to double in size by 2030, three major airports and plenty of entertainment in the area is by far a better candidate than Southern Miss and many of the current CUSA members.

It's FEAR by the other schools that we will one day dominate their conference because we are a large, public University in a large metro area whose logistics are the best in the nation and we are located in a hotbed of high school talent in all sports!

Go Mean Green!

Edited August 22, 2010 by meangreenbob

SilverEagle · August 22, 2010

I agree that our record is not what has been holding us back, per se. What's held us back has always been our culture.

drex · August 22, 2010

Silver Eagle is correct..it is the culture. Much of that culture was caused by university presidents who had no real idea or vision of where they wanted NT to go athletically. Essentially, they treated athletics as a somewhat necessary evil. This went on for decades. Now, since the beginning of this decade, we are finally getting athletics taken more seriously by senior administration. The fan base in the past never really got behind the teams, as there was no real vision presented to them for the maximization of NT's potential. Yes, I am talking about Hurley, Matthews, etc. Nolen was the exception and his vision brought us Blakeley and Fry.

Harry · August 22, 2010

The BCS conferences essentially provide cover for schools that do not reside in areas where athletic talent is plentiful. Look at Iowa State. They dip into Texas and cherry pick players on the premise of being in the Big 12. Our conference affiliation has been the biggest hindrance in our growth plan. How many more players and fans would we see wear the green if we were playing big BCS powerhouses with their huge traveling fan bases? The Sun Belt teams will bring what maybe a couple hundred fans into Fouts every year? How many of our fans will travel to their games? How excited do our alumni get about the teams we play in the SBC? I am convinced that a conference change that would put us against more recognizable teams and would make a huge difference in the growth of our programs. The reason UTEP was picked over us for CUSA was cited as their attendance in football and basketball. Matching their numbers in the Sun Belt Will be difficult. We will have to sell CUSA that all the pieces are in placeb and our attenance potential is huge with the right conference affiliation. If we could bring 3-5k to Houston, Rice, SMU, Tulsa, UTEP and Tulane it would make a huge difference.

SilverEagle · August 22, 2010

Silver Eagle is correct..it is the culture. Much of that culture was caused by university presidents who had no real idea or vision of where they wanted NT to go athletically. Essentially, they treated athletics as a somewhat necessary evil. This went on for decades. Now, since the beginning of this decade, we are finally getting athletics taken more seriously by senior administration. The fan base in the past never really got behind the teams, as there was no real vision presented to them for the maximization of NT's potential. Yes, I am talking about Hurley, Matthews, etc. Nolen was the exception and his vision brought us Blakeley and Fry.

And shortly after Fry left, Jitter Nolen was chased off by all the administrators from the "old culture".

meangreenbob · August 22, 2010

The BCS conferences essentially provide cover for schools that do not reside in areas where athletic talent is plentiful. Look at Iowa State. They dip into Texas and cherry pick players on the premise of being in the Big 12. Our conference affiliation has been the biggest hindrance in our growth plan. How many more players and fans would we see wear the green if we were playing big BCS powerhouses with their huge traveling fan bases? The Sun Belt teams will bring what maybe a couple hundred fans into Fouts every year? How many of our fans will travel to their games? How excited do our alumni get about the teams we play in the SBC? I am convinced that a conference change that would put us against more recognizable teams and would make a huge difference in the growth of our programs. The reason UTEP was picked over us for CUSA was cited as their attendance in football and basketball. Matching their numbers in the Sun Belt Will be difficult. We will have to sell CUSA that all the pieces are in placeb and our attenance potential is huge with the right conference affiliation. If we could bring 3-5k to Houston, Rice, SMU, Tulsa, UTEP and Tulane it would make a huge difference.

Unfortunately thats the problem. Many see UNT as having an unfair advantage if allowed to be affiliated with the name schools because of our size and location and hotbed of talent. How many more kids will stay home and play for UNT if OU, OKST and others are on our home schedule? SMU, Houston and TCU understand that all too well. Whats sad is that they would rather cut their own throats then allow UNT the opportunity to help fill their stadiums and generate income for them because of natual rivialries.

The good news is this! We may not be considered this time because of ignorance, pride and fear but I believe that if we can keep the people we have now in key positions we will overcome any and all obstacles. I may not see it in my lifetime, but it is close! No ONE or no School will be able to stop us now!

Go Mean Green!! WIN!!!

NT91 · August 22, 2010

culture is changing... I took my son to meet the teacher the other night at his school.

His teacher is a 2010 NT grad. She had 4 or 5 NT items up on the wall in her class.

My son likes her already.

Edited August 22, 2010 by NT91

untgeorge · August 22, 2010

The BCS conferences essentially provide cover for schools that do not reside in areas where athletic talent is plentiful. Look at Iowa State. They dip into Texas and cherry pick players on the premise of being in the Big 12. Our conference affiliation has been the biggest hindrance in our growth plan. How many more players and fans would we see wear the green if we were playing big BCS powerhouses with their huge traveling fan bases? The Sun Belt teams will bring what maybe a couple hundred fans into Fouts every year? How many of our fans will travel to their games? How excited do our alumni get about the teams we play in the SBC? I am convinced that a conference change that would put us against more recognizable teams and would make a huge difference in the growth of our programs. The reason UTEP was picked over us for CUSA was cited as their attendance in football and basketball. Matching their numbers in the Sun Belt Will be difficult. We will have to sell CUSA that all the pieces are in placeb and our attenance potential is huge with the right conference affiliation. If we could bring 3-5k to Houston, Rice, SMU, Tulsa, UTEP and Tulane it would make a huge difference.

UTEP compiled those envious attendance records while they were in the WAC and they were in the WAC before Boise became big. They weren't playing Rice, SMU, Tulsa, etc. or any other Texas schools. They drew well because their fans come out no matter who the opposition is. They did better in winning years of course but they did substantially better than 20,000 in losing years. Their fans came out to support their team. They did have one thing we don't have, traditional rivals in UNM and NMSU.

Boise cranked it up in the '90s playing Big West teams. They cranked it up with alum and community support, much as TCU has done. They had more donors in the '90s than we do now.

Saying we will do better in a better conference may not be a big selling point though it is clearly true. People complain about the conference we are in, well, we are in the conference we are in because we earned it.

meangreenbob · August 22, 2010

UTEP compiled those envious attendance records while they were in the WAC and they were in the WAC before Boise became big. They weren't playing Rice, SMU, Tulsa, etc. or any other Texas schools. They drew well because their fans come out no matter who the opposition is. They did better in winning years of course but they did substantially better than 20,000 in losing years. Their fans came out to support their team. They did have one thing we don't have, traditional rivals in UNM and NMSU.

Boise cranked it up in the '90s playing Big West teams. They cranked it up with alum and community support, much as TCU has done. They had more donors in the '90s than we do now.

Saying we will do better in a better conference may not be a big selling point though it is clearly true. People complain about the conference we are in, well, we are in the conference we are in because we earned it.

True, but it's not apples to apples. What the hell do you do in El Paso or Boise for entertainment? True we are located in a larger metro area, but the standard for appeasing one's entertainment fix is a lot higher as well!

Harry · August 22, 2010

George you hit on a great point. We don't have a rival. You listed off 3 that UTEP has. Frankly given the weather circumstances, stadium and record over the past 5 years I am pretty proud of our numbers we are putting up. We had better rivals when we were in the Southland!

PlummMeanGreen · August 22, 2010

culture is changing... I took my son to meet the teacher the other night at his school.
His teacher is a 2010 NT grad. She had 4 or 5 NT items up on the wall in her class.
My son likes her already.

It has always been my hope that all our dramatic new growth of the past decade and happening even now would squeeze out the old culture. It has to an exent but still has a little ways to go. I'm not sure I can think of any NCAA school at any division that has experienced what our dear ol' alma mater has the last 30 plus years,ie, the Roller Coaster Ride with revolving door hirings of many who had no business being at an aspiring BCS school. Moving to a BCS type stadium may reflect that some others may be out of their element from our "Fouts Field" era at UNT. If your top dog in the trailor park, you might only be able to be a butler or a maid in Highland Park? Thankfully, we have 3 movers and shakers on campus who I believe can move our ship into waters many of us on this board have long aspired and truly thought we deserved

And on the subject of Southern Miss, I think we all know of at least 1 around our campus who would disagree with some of the semi-negative things said in posts above about the Golden Eagles last 30 plus years. :rolleyes: Personally, I have admired all the schools we were once at the same level "aspiration-wise" who went upward while we tended to stay downward with old school Denton teacher's college types having way too much influence with our future and with that group who never shared any of Hayden Fry's dreams for NT and all but poked fun at ol' Hay-Boy for having the audacity to dream forward.

GMG!

Edited August 22, 2010 by PlummMeanGreen

meangreenbob · August 22, 2010

George you hit on a great point. We don't have a rival. You listed off 3 that UTEP has. Frankly given the weather circumstances, stadium and record over the past 5 years I am pretty proud of our numbers we are putting up. We had better rivals when we were in the Southland!

Harry, I get your point and that is what Helwig wanted. Don't give our rivals fuel for the fire.

meangreenbob · August 22, 2010

It has always been my hope that all our dramatic new growth of the past decade and happening even now would squeeze out the old culture. It has to an exent but still has a little ways to go. I'm not sure I can think of any NCAA school at any division that has experienced what our dear ol' alma mater has the last 30 plus years,ie, the Roller Coaster Ride with revolving door hirings of many who had no business being at an aspiring BCS school. Moving to a BCS type stadium may reflect that some others may be out of their element from our "Fouts Field" era at UNT. If your top dog in the trailor park, you might only be able to be a butler or a maid in Highland Park? Thankfully, we have 3 movers and shakers on campus who I believe can move our ship into waters many of us on this board have long aspired and truly thought we deserved

And on the subject of Southern Miss, I think we all know of at least 1 around our campus who would disagree with some of the semi-negative things said in posts above about the Golden Eagles last 30 plus years. Personally, I have admired all the schools we were once at the same level "aspiration-wise" who went upward while we tended to stay downward with old school Denton teacher's college types having way too much influence with our future and with that group who never shared any of Hayden Fry's dreams for NT and all but poked fun at ol' Hay-Boy for having the audacity to dream forward.

GMG!

The facts are the facts. RV knows this and probably could return to Southern Mississippi anytime he chooses.

Edited August 22, 2010 by meangreenbob

PlummMeanGreen · August 22, 2010

The facts are the facts. RV knows this and probably could return to Southern Mississippi anytime he chooses.

After what some might agree was a bit of a shake'y start at UNT, I really believe Rick V has found his nitch in Denton. Even where we are right now in light of recent losing seasons, I think our future is very much more interesting than some of those schools now in CUSA who will never compete with our enrollment/alumnus numbers (and yes) still our unlimited potential.

Folks, we can't change our past (of which we can learn much from I hope) but I think the University of North Texas has one helluva' future which can now be jumpstarted and all but put in warp speed because of a new Mean Green football palace presently being built between those 2 major Texas Interstates in the northern part of the (almost) 8 million populated Metroplex. What a location for a college football stadium!

GMG!

Edited August 22, 2010 by PlummMeanGreen

meangreenbob · August 22, 2010

After what some might agree was a bit of a shake'y start at UNT, I really believe Rick V has found his nitch in Denton. Even where we are right now in light of recent losing seasons, I think our future is very much more interesting than some of those schools now in CUSA who will never compete with our enrollment/alumnus numbers (and yes) still our unlimited potential.

Folks, we can't change our past (of which we can learn much from I hope) but I think the University of North Texas has one helluva' future which can now be jumpstarted and all but put in warp speed because of a new Mean Green football palace presently being built between those 2 major Texas Interstates in the northern part of the (almost) 8 million populated Metroplex. What a location for a college football stadium!

GMG!

Can we get an AMEN!!

KRAM1 · August 23, 2010

Can we get an AMEN!!

AMEN!!!!

greenminer · August 23, 2010

UTEP fans do not have the option of going to Mavs, Stars, Rangers or Cowboys games.

Or Desperados, or 3,465 minor league games, or MLS, or...etc.

UTEP fans go in droves regardless of the opponenent because UTEP is one of the only sports tickets in town.

EagleGreen · August 23, 2010

I think our problem with getting into CUSA is that they already have a member in this market. CUSA would not benefit from having another school in this television market, and certainly we would not be tops on their list from the crowd we pull (based on history). Same problem with MWC.

We need to win the SBC, attract a rival, and increase in popularity...that's all *sarcasm*.

KRAM1 · August 23, 2010

UTEP fans do not have the option of going to Mavs, Stars, Rangers or Cowboys games.

Or Desperados, or 3,465 minor league games, or MLS, or...etc.

UTEP fans go in droves regardless of the opponenent because UTEP is one of the only sports tickets in town.

I hear you and agree that metroplex sports fans have lots of options. But, still no reason why UNT attendance is so low. Really, the metroplex has how many residents and alumni????? UTEP also does a decent job of getting the local community involved and in making the "game day experience" part of the package. Both of which, UNT is doing a much better job of doing these days...and it shows in a positive way on game days (at least with football).

It is more than "just the game" these days that is important. The family "sports and entertainment dollar" has only so far to go. When deciding where to spend those very valuable discretionary dollars, one needs to consider all aspects of the experience. If you have a family, what is going on that will help make the 8-10 year old girls and boys want to attend and Mom and Dad knowing they will have to entertain the kids as well during the event? Make it an "experience" even before the gates open, get the community involved as well as the current student body and watch attendance grow.

The minor leagues you reference know this and work hard on that "family experience" thing.

Let's get some family promotions going for both football and basketball and see what might develop....yes, there are a few, but most in the metroplex have no clue they even exist. Let's expand them and get the word out that they exist. I wouldn't mind some promos including discounted tickets, food packages, etc. Heck, why not give it a shot.

GrandGreen · August 23, 2010

I think our problem with getting into CUSA is that they already have a member in this market. CUSA would not benefit from having another school in this television market, and certainly we would not be tops on their list from the crowd we pull (based on history). Same problem with MWC.

We need to win the SBC, attract a rival, and increase in popularity...that's all *sarcasm*.

This is more a perceived problem IMO than reality. College football fans no matter of what school are more likely to watch a tv game that their team is not playing than the average person. CUSA or any other conference should look at the number of alums in the DFW area which dwarfs both SMU and TCU. The biggest problem is that NT is not winning, the second is that NT doesn't play in general as well known schools. No non-AQ comes close to controlling the DFW market. The addition of NT to CUSA would give them a significantly stronger presence in the market. In addition to one private, they would add a state schools with many more students and alum in the area than SMU and TCU combined. USC, California, and UCLA seem to coexist very well.

Green Mean · August 23, 2010

UTEP fans do not have the option of going to Mavs, Stars, Rangers or Cowboys games.

Or Desperados, or 3,465 minor league games, or MLS, or...etc.

UTEP fans go in droves regardless of the opponenent because UTEP is one of the only sports tickets in town.

You have a point but the DFW area also has 8 or 9 times the population of the El Paso area. Not to mention UNT is a huge university and has over 100k alumni in the area. Of course we all know why UNT is in its position but I think we can question why our attendance is so low, even with a winning basketball program.

greenminer · August 23, 2010

You have a point but the DFW area also has 8 or 9 times the population of the El Paso area. Not to mention UNT is a huge university and has over 100k alumni in the area. Of course we all know why UNT is in its position but I think we can question why our attendance is so low, even with a winning basketball program.

Not trying to be such a downer, but you have to wonder that with that much alumni...is the disconnect with our fan base really that bad?

I don't disagree: we need to get on the ball about keeping in touch with our alumni. Certainly, UTEP's bball success made it easier for the fan to want to hang around and keep tabs.

KRAM1 · August 23, 2010

Not trying to be such a downer, but you have to wonder that with that much alumni...is the disconnect with our fan base really that bad?

YES, unfortunately. But, it is not for want of trying. Some folks just refuse to pay attention to everything going on that is so very positive with UNT these days. Same old excuses without even stopping to look for themselves.

But, the good news is that it seems to be changing, ever so slowly, much for the better!

GO MEAN GREEN!

UNT90 · August 23, 2010

If the conference championship had come at the same time that we were building a new staduium, and at the same time that all of this conference realignment talk was ongoing, there is no doubt in my mind that the disconnect with Alums would be lessened. It's not one thing, but a sum of all things not coming together at the same time which causes the disconnect.

I think now the only thing missing is winning. I am not talking about winning the Belt or a bowl game against the 3rd placed team in CUSA, I'm talking about a major statement win that makes your alums stand up and take notice (see: TCU over #5 Oklahoma 2005). This is what will bring the Alums back. Face it, everyone loves a winner, including Alumni and conferences looking for new members. Hopefully, this happens soon here, as I think this is all that is missing.

Timing is everything.

Edited August 23, 2010 by UNT90