La Tech Vs Nt

NT80 · August 23, 2010

I think you hit the nail on the head here. CUSA does not benefit from having another dallas market school. They will most likely look to expand into another market with the most popular school available. It all comes down to money and accolades; neither of wich UNT can provide at this juncture.

It won't come down to popularity, money, or accolades. It comes down to market, ease of travel, facilities, attendance, and to some degree potential because of size and future growth possibility. UNT has many of those. CUSA headquarters is in DFW = ground zero.

TheTastyGreek · August 23, 2010

if winning brings the fans in, please explain our poor attendance and lack of support for our men's basketball program, or does your anology apply to football only? in addition, our football attendance has averaged about the same since the "dodge era" as it did when d.d. won 4 championships and went to the new bowl 2000/2004.

At the end of last season, when we were on our winning streak... We DID get notably larger crowds.

We pulled 4400 people to watch basketball in Denton on a Thursday night against ULL. We had just under 4700 here to see a DISMAL Arkansas-Little Rock team the Saturday before.

Winning DOES boost attendance.

In 2002, we hosted TCU for an early December midweek game. Both teams came in with a winning record. Attendance was just under 3150.

In 2003, we hosted Baylor in an early December midweek game. Both teams came in with a winning record, and we won. The attendance was 2,173.

In 2004, we had TCU at home on a Saturday during the first weekend of December. Again, both teams had winning records, and we had attendance just over 3,600.

2005, hosted Houston the week of Christmas. Not the best for a regular comparison, given the holiday, but we barely cracked 4100.

2006, our marquee OOC game was Tulsa, unfortunately the week of Thanksgiving. Not a great comparison given the holiday, but definitely our best home OOC game. Both winning records, attendance was under 1950.

In 2007, we hosted Indiana State on a Saturday, right after our huge win against Oklahoma State. We were undefeated. Attendance was just 2,531.

Now that winning isn't a novel thing... When we're wrapping up a 4th straight 20 win season and in the middle of an 11 game win streak... Our bottom feeder Hyphenate/Directional conference opponents are outdrawing most of our marquee OOC foes from the previous decade. NOBODY was coming to see an 8-22 Arkansas-Little Rock team. People turned out to see North Texas, because we were winning and they were games that mattered to NORTH TEXAS.

Go back and look at what our final conference game attendance figures were like before the first NCAA bid. Even during that first 20 win year, we sure as heck weren't pulling 4500+ crowds.

When we played Jackson State last Thanksgiving week, it outdrew what we brought in for TULSA the same time in 2006. It was NINE PEOPLE less than what we got for Baylor in 2003. When a SWAC team is outdrawing a CUSA team that we think will solve our interest and attendance woes in other sports, I'd say that's a pretty clear sign that the winning is bringing in new fans.

Winning IS building our attendance. Winning IS building the overall interest in the basketball program. GrandGreen mentioned this elsewhere, but there were more NT fans in Oklahoma City (Ticket price: $66 compared to $90 for NT season tickets last year) than I've seen the past 4 years at SBC tournaments. And speaking of the SBC tournament... We keep bringing bigger and bigger crowds. Not just to finals, but people are driving and students are busing their way up for quarter and semifinal games. Every one of the bus kids from last March that saw us clinch that berth is probably an NT basketball fan for life now.

Winning is already making a huge difference. With a very winnable game against Texas Tech as our first real home game, home games against UTA, Rice, Texas State... Coupled with the heat we've still got from last season and this year's early recruiting... This could be a huge jump in overall season attendance average.

Green Lantern · August 23, 2010

At the end of last season, when we were on our winning streak... We DID get notably larger crowds.

We pulled 4400 people to watch basketball in Denton on a Thursday night against ULL. We had just under 4700 here to see a DISMAL Arkansas-Little Rock team the Saturday before.

Winning DOES boost attendance.

In 2002, we hosted TCU for an early December midweek game. Both teams came in with a winning record. Attendance was just under 3150.

In 2003, we hosted Baylor in an early December midweek game. Both teams came in with a winning record, and we won. The attendance was 2,173.

In 2004, we had TCU at home on a Saturday during the first weekend of December. Again, both teams had winning records, and we had attendance just over 3,600.

2005, hosted Houston the week of Christmas. Not the best for a regular comparison, given the holiday, but we barely cracked 4100.

2006, our marquee OOC game was Tulsa, unfortunately the week of Thanksgiving. Not a great comparison given the holiday, but definitely our best home OOC game. Both winning records, attendance was under 1950.

In 2007, we hosted Indiana State on a Saturday, right after our huge win against Oklahoma State. We were undefeated. Attendance was just 2,531.

Now that winning isn't a novel thing... When we're wrapping up a 4th straight 20 win season and in the middle of an 11 game win streak... Our bottom feeder Hyphenate/Directional conference opponents are outdrawing most of our marquee OOC foes from the previous decade. NOBODY was coming to see an 8-22 Arkansas-Little Rock team. People turned out to see North Texas, because we were winning and they were games that mattered to NORTH TEXAS.

Go back and look at what our final conference game attendance figures were like before the first NCAA bid. Even during that first 20 win year, we sure as heck weren't pulling 4500+ crowds.

When we played Jackson State last Thanksgiving week, it outdrew what we brought in for TULSA the same time in 2006. It was NINE PEOPLE less than what we got for Baylor in 2003. When a SWAC team is outdrawing a CUSA team that we think will solve our interest and attendance woes in other sports, I'd say that's a pretty clear sign that the winning is bringing in new fans.

Winning IS building our attendance. Winning IS building the overall interest in the basketball program. GrandGreen mentioned this elsewhere, but there were more NT fans in Oklahoma City (Ticket price: $66 compared to $90 for NT season tickets last year) than I've seen the past 4 years at SBC tournaments. And speaking of the SBC tournament... We keep bringing bigger and bigger crowds. Not just to finals, but people are driving and students are busing their way up for quarter and semifinal games. Every one of the bus kids from last March that saw us clinch that berth is probably an NT basketball fan for life now.

Winning is already making a huge difference. With a very winnable game against Texas Tech as our first real home game, home games against UTA, Rice, Texas State... Coupled with the heat we've still got from last season and this year's early recruiting... This could be a huge jump in overall season attendance average.

Mega Sportsflash!

UNTflyer · August 23, 2010

CUSA does not benefit from having another dallas market school.

How do you figure? When did SMU start delivering 100% of the DFW media market?

emmitt01 · August 23, 2010

How do you figure? When did SMU start delivering 100% of the DFW media market?

When did SMU start delivering 100% of the north Dallas market?

GrandGreen · August 23, 2010

GG, nice article. However, if decisions in the football world as well as the real world were based solely on statistics we would be living in Nervana. Unfortunately, decisions are made with money and politics which NT has virtually none of. Denton sits at the apex of the largest inland megolopolis in the United States and Ruston is in comparison the Petticoat Junction of the two. Look at some of the successful programs that are in the middle of "B.F. somewhere."

Do I believe that the "new" Fouts Field will improve NT's standing in the Metroplex? Of course. Will the "new" Fouts Field bring in more Metroplex alums? I hope so but time will tell. Look at SMU and how their, I guess you could call it a semi-new stadium, has responded to their metroplex success. Not too much attendance when they are in the "L" column but since the arrival of Coach Jones attendance has increased. You can almost say the same for TCU. New stadium vs. old stadium. Winning brings in the fans.

Don't disagree with the premise that logic often takes back seat to politics, that is why there were many qualifications in that post. I do disagree with you that NT has virtually no clout. Just by virtue of size and location, NT does compare well versus the rest of the Belt and most non-AQ universites. NT is currently not competing with Notre Dame for a spot or even a SMU for that matter. As far as money, no NT certainly can not get the conference funds from tv contracts and other funds generated at the AQ conferences or CUSA or MWC. It does not get the massive donations of the established privates or the schools that are perceived as the states' teams such as Alabama, Tennessee, UT, A&M, Michigan, etc. However, compared to the teams in the MAC, Belt, whats left of the WAC and a lot of the MWC, NT is going to be in very good financial shape. What programs in the middle of nowhere are you referring to, my guess most are AQ schools that have been playing football at the highest level for decades (A&M, Alabama, Oklahoma State, Mississippi, etc.).

The focus of my post above was that NT does have a lot to offer and hopefully counter the many pessimistic comments from many NT fans. It just seems ridiculous to me to assume that schools that to do not have near the potential of NT, are always going to do better. IMO, NT is in a lot better position than they were when they were considered for CUSA . Many who only look at football, may think otherwise; but look at the big picture. The long team factors are looking better than ever and will be tough to match by other non-AQ programs.

wardly · August 24, 2010

Mega Sportsflash!

last year we won 20 games and averaged about 2,800 for home games. that is piss poor no matter how much you sugar coat it.

wardly · August 24, 2010

How do you figure? When did SMU start delivering 100% of the DFW media market?

smu does not deliver the entire dfw market for cusa, any more than tcu does for mt. west. the question probably is, how many schools does a conference need in the dfw or houston markets? the answer probably is, one. how much more exposure would cusa get in dfw market by adding nt? not much, if existing media coverage from dallas morning news,ft.wo.star telegram,and local tv stations are any indication.

PlummMeanGreen · August 24, 2010

smu does not deliver the entire dfw market for cusa, any more than tcu does for mt. west. the question probably is, how many schools does a conference need in the dfw or houston markets? the answer probably is, one. how much more exposure would cusa get in dfw market by adding nt? not much, if existing media coverage from dallas morning news,ft.wo.star telegram,and local tv stations are any indication.

And have you seen the Fort Worth Star Telegram lately? It looks like they're the product of some kind of paper shortage as thin as their daily has become (at $1.00 per paper to boot). They must have a minimal staff and I suppose is the reason UNT doesn't have its own FWST beat reporter (which we've had most of my years up here which began in the Spring semester of 1972).

VideoEagle · August 24, 2010

When did SMU start delivering 100% of the north Dallas market?

When did SMU start delivering 100% of Highland Park?

eulessismore · August 24, 2010

When did SMU start delivering 100% of Highland Park?

University Park?

UNTflyer · August 24, 2010

how much more exposure would cusa get in dfw market by adding nt?

That's easy - 1 + 1 = 2, so at least twice as much as before.

GrandGreen · August 24, 2010

last year we won 20 games and averaged about 2,800 for home games. that is piss poor no matter how much you sugar coat it.

Yes, not close to were it should be. However, the attendance trend is very good. Attendance average for first 8 home games last year was 1808, the last six games 3922. Very poor oc home schedule, holidays and winning streak at end of season; all plays into this, but there is reason for some optimism relative to attendance.

TheTastyGreek · August 24, 2010

Yes, not close to were it should be. However, the attendance trend is very good. Attendance average for first 8 home games last year was 1808, the last six games 3922. Very poor oc home schedule, holidays and winning streak at end of season; all plays into this, but there is reason for some optimism relative to attendance.

And a freaking weekday day game... Don't forget that one.

Green Lantern · August 24, 2010

last year we won 20 games and averaged about 2,800 for home games. that is piss poor no matter how much you sugar coat it.

Not saying it was great, but that was hands down THE worst home schedule that I've seen in my time following UNT basketball. We didn't have a single marquee game to help buoy attendance figures. Things really picked up towards the end of the season & we had some nice home crowds. (*all this coming from someone who believes that you should show up to watch UNT regardless of who we play*)

Sad reality: Until we can focus more money, time & effort into promoting NT hoop, it's going to be similar results. Steady increases in attendance when we are winning. This season will be better attendance wise. I think you're going to see a more concerted effort on Athletics behalf to increse marketing and promotion of basketball & having a home games against Tech, Rice, UTA & Texas State will all be good for our OOC attendance. We keep winning & I think we'll all be pleased with the progress that's made this year.

Edited August 24, 2010 by Green Lantern

UNTflyer · August 24, 2010

The Pit Crew is also looking to be more visible this year, not waiting until February to do any promotions and giveaways.

The problem seems to be "Who is in charge?" The Pit Crew is disorganized and the funding comes from SGA. I tried to get the Pit Crew committee organized but it seemed to be a low priority.

Edited August 24, 2010 by UNTflyer

Green Mean · August 24, 2010

I think it's true for both for football and basketball but UNT basketball is still building a lot of goodwill into the program. I think it is a work in progress. If we have a few more 20 win seasons combined with identifiable marquee wins against well known/good programs then I think we will get to about 4k a game. The big thing is that UNT needs to get more national attention not including going to the dance. Maybe a top 25 ranking may just ignite the fans to come out in bunches but keep in mind that UNT gets no national attention whatsoever and I don't believe we had any marquee wins against well known opponents the last couple of years other than the OSU home win. Remember UNT athletics as a whole has a lot of goodwill to establish in my opinion.