La Tech Vs Nt

[GrandGreen]

I am amused by the delusional La Tech fans but also chagrined a bit at the number of fatalistic NT posters. There is a great chance that there will not be an opening in CUSA and there are numerous ways to fill it if one does occur. However, assuming it does come down to La Tech and NT. Outside of the intangibles, who likes who and who is afraid of who, if it comes down to the raw data; NT is an easy choice. Here are some quick comparisons of key factors taking from online sources inclusive of school websites. As an aside I am very skeptical of almost all university reported data, but that basically is the only source for most of the information.

1. football success, what everyone seems to consider first:, . No doubt, NT has been one of the worst programs in the nation, but La Tech is not exactly stellar. La Tech won 4 games last year over NMSU, Hawaii, San Jose State and Nicholls State. They lost to Idaho and Utah State; two old Belt mates. Over the last decade; NT has been 42-78 versus La Tech's 52-69. La Tech would get a small edge here, but both schools are in trouble based on this criterion.

2. Resources are I believe the biggest factors in a logical decision, that will ultimately define a school's progress. Last years reported operating expenses were $14,651,000 for La Tech versus NT's 16,449,000. NT with the recently approved increase of $7 per hour which will not come on stream till 2011 will give NT an enormous edge not only over La Tech but a lot of the non-AQ competition. Granted the majority of these funds will not immediately go into operational budgets, but they will go into athletic program. The fee can be increased by 10% without vote annually until it hits the state max of $20 per hour. La Tech currently has no student athletic fees, but with a student body of 10,564 compared to NT's 34,710; NT will always have a huge advantage. I have no numbers but I would imagine that La Tech does a much better job of getting direct contributions. It is hoped the new stadium and such will spur NT to much better results in an area that must be improved. With probably 4 times the alums of La Tech, this is an area that NT should expect to eclipse La Tech very quickly. NT has an advantage in resources which should expand greatly

3. Facilities are another area that La Tech IMO cannot compete. La Tech's football stadium was build in 1968 with several major renovations since then and now seats a reported 30.600. Their basketball arena was build in1987 and has a capacity of 7,720. I am sure La Tech has made improvements to their football stadium since I was there and they plan major improvements. Frankly, I thought their stadium other then not having a track was worse than Fouts last time I was there. The BB arena is ok but not close to the Super Pit. I have not seen their other facilities but I can't fathom that they would be on a par with NT. Facilities is a big plus for NT.

4. Attendance average reported for last years football games. La Tech had a miraculous 20,000 even last year versus NT's 18,228. I give NT a slight edge here as La Tech had at least one good draw Boise State at home and considering 5 wins in three years; NT has been better than expected.

5. Media Market, no matter how La Tech fan's want to spin this one, NT has a major advantage. From "Market Track" DFW is the fifth largest market in the nation with 2,544,000 households. La Tech believe that they are a big factor not only in their market; Monroe La/ El Dorado Ar (177,200 households) but Shreveport (386,180). Giving them that, their total market is 560,000 households. They claim they control much more of their market than NT does the DFW because they are the only fb division school and there is no pro competition. I can only guess they think the 80,000 that go to cowboy games on Sunday are hurting college attendance. The issue with pro teams is through TVs and other media dominance, not live attendance and as far as I know Shreveport can get televised Saints games as well as the Cowboys. Likewise LSU and SEC games versus UT and Big 12 games, are the same issue. As far as sharing DFW with two private FB division schools, my guess is that 2,000,000 extra households trumps that point.

6. Geography is a two edged sword. The only down side for NT is it to close to other CUSA members that they fear increased competition. I keep seeing a familar point on both NT and LT sites, SMU will block NT entrance to CUSA. Maybe, but they have signed a contract for long term football games. They could just come to their senses and realize that it would be good for the fans and the budget. As far as travel, I would think NT has an edge with two major airports 30 miles away and I doubt many are in a hurry to go to Ruston.

7. Academics are always bannered about, but I don't think it will be a factor. Actually La Tech and NT are not far apart. Some stats from "College Stats" are retainment LT 72%, NT 74%; Graduation rate: LT 47%, NT 44%, Acceptance rate; LT 66%, NT 65%: 75 percentile ACT; LT 20 (SAT not reported), NT 21(SAT 1200) and student to faculty ratio; LT 88 to 12, NT 91 to 9, From schools sites, NT's admission standards are higher. La Tech reguires incoming freshmen to have either a 2.5/4.0 hs GPA, top quarter of class, or 23 ACT or 1050 SAT. NT automatically admits top 10% of hs class compared to LT top 25%. Next 15% at NT require 950 SAT or 20 ACT and second quarter 1050 SAT or 23 ACT (Any student would gain admission to La Tech with these scores). As far as degrees offered bachelors; NT 97, LT 82; masters; NT 101, LT 57; Doctors; NT 48, LT 9.

8. Other sports with the exception of MBB will be minor points . La Tech has a good basketball program but not up to NT in last few years. I don't think the lack of baseball will hurt NT at all. If CUSA required it, NT would have one next year.

9. Potential is an intangible that should make the decision. La Tech is limited by size and location. They are a relatively small school in a relatively small market in a state with severe economic problems despite a lot of support from their fan base; it is tough to visualize them significantly improving. NT of course is loaded with potential but has failed to significantly improve over its history. I can see NT in the next decade having 45,000 students with an additional 20,000,000 dollars flowing in from student activity fees plus greatly increased outside fund raising. NT should have state of the art non-AQ facilities. I don't see how Louisiana Tech can come close.

In summary, neither La Tech or NT may be chosen for anything or La Tech may be picked because they are not North Texas. But look at some of the stats and don't assume NT has nothing to offer or is not in a fairly good position.

Edited August 22, 2010 by GrandGreen

[Harry]

Good analysis Grand Green! My question is can you fly into Ruston? What is the closest major airport? I honestly don't know.

I tire of the SMU won't let UNT in arguement. We have proven that we will bring a good contingent of fans to games there. From a recruiting perspective having UNT would allow CUSA teams a trip to the fertile DFW area every year. Houston and Rice are proof that SMU and UNT can work for CUSA. It's become a rivalry and while Houston has gotten the better of it lately Rice has benefitted from it as well.

To me SMU won't allow it is a cop out way to move away from the real criteria that will be evaluated with any expansion. For years I have heard the arguement that our facilties were an issue. Now we have addressed that issue and the "SMU hates UNT" has replaced it. The truth is SMU has one vote and perhaps even La. Tech is not a favorite of every CUSA school. I am pleased that President Rawlins, RV and Chuck Neinas are involved in communicating the real story.

Now you are hearing UNT's football program is down and on that count they are right. I never thought back in the bowl years we would ever find ourselves here again but here we are. I hope that Coach Dodge will get the ship righted this season but if he doesn't someone will...I think the powers that be at CUSA realize this.

I don't harbor any ill will towards La. Tech. I think what they have accomplished is admirable. I think they have a good case to make for CUSA but in the end ours is better. Both are good schools. I don't need to minimize them to make me feel better about UNT's chances for CUSA entry.

[NT80]

Good analysis Grand Green! My question is can you fly into Ruston? What is the closest major airport? I honestly don't know.

I don't harbor any ill will towards La. Tech. I think what they have accomplished is admirable. I think they have a good case to make for CUSA but in the end ours is better. Both are good schools. I don't need to minimize them to make me feel better about UNT's chances for CUSA entry.

Shreveport or maybe Monroe would be the closest available airports for large charters.

La Tech has no media market per se to represent. Shreveport is 60+ miles away and fully LSU/SEC country. Ruston had a population of only 20,546 in 2000, 32% of which were below the poverty line. La Tech had enrollment of only 11,710 in 2005. It is not a very modern nor pretty campus.

In other words: They got nothin'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruston,_Louisiana

Edited August 22, 2010 by NT80

[Danish43]

I am amused by the delusional La Tech fans but also chagrined a bit at the number of fatalistic NT posters. There is a great chance that there will not be an opening in CUSA and there are numerous ways to fill it if one does occur. However, assuming it does come down to La Tech and NT. Outside of the intangibles, who likes who and who is afraid of who, if it comes down to the raw data; NT is an easy choice. Here are some quick comparisons of key factors taking from online sources inclusive of school websites. As an aside I am very skeptical of almost all university reported data, but that basically is the only source for most of the information.

1. football success, what everyone seems to consider first:, . No doubt, NT has been one of the worst programs in the nation, but La Tech is not exactly stellar. La Tech won 4 games last year over NMSU, Hawaii, San Jose State and Nicholls State. They lost to Idaho and Utah State; two old Belt mates. Over the last decade; NT has been 42-78 versus La Tech's 52-69. La Tech would get a small edge here, but both schools are in trouble based on this criterion.

2. Resources are I believe the biggest factors in a logical decision, that will ultimately define a school's progress. Last years reported operating expenses were $14,651,000 for La Tech versus NT's 16,449,000. NT with the recently approved increase of $7 per hour which will not come on stream till 2011 will give NT an enormous edge not only over La Tech but a lot of the non-AQ competition. Granted the majority of these funds will not immediately go into operational budgets, but they will go into athletic program. The fee can be increased by 10% without vote annually until it hits the state max of $20 per hour. La Tech currently has no student athletic fees, but with a student body of 10,564 compared to NT's 34,710; NT will always have a huge advantage. I have no numbers but I would imagine that La Tech does a much better job of getting direct contributions. It is hoped the new stadium and such will spur NT to much better results in an area that must be improved. With probably 4 times the alums of La Tech, this is an area that NT should expect to eclipse La Tech very quickly. NT has an advantage in resources which should expand greatly

3. Facilities are another area that La Tech IMO cannot compete. La Tech's football stadium was build in 1968 with several major renovations since then and now seats a reported 30.600. Their basketball arena was build in1987 and has a capacity of 7,720. I am sure La Tech has made improvements to their football stadium since I was there and they plan major improvements. Frankly, I thought their stadium other then not having a track was worse than Fouts last time I was there. The BB arena is ok but not close to the Super Pit. I have not seen their other facilities but I can't fathom that they would be on a par with NT. Facilities is a big plus for NT.

4. Attendance average reported for last years football games. La Tech had a miraculous 20,000 even last year versus NT's 18,228. I give NT a slight edge here as La Tech had at least one good draw Boise State at home and considering 5 wins in three years; NT has been better than expected.

5. Media Market, no matter how La Tech fan's want to spin this one, NT has a major advantage. From "Market Track" DFW is the fifth largest market in the nation with 2,544,000 households. La Tech believe that they are a big factor not only in their market; Monroe La/ El Dorado Ar (177,200 households) but Shreveport (386,180). Giving them that, their total market is 560,000 households. They claim they control much more of their market than NT does the DFW because they are the only fb division school and there is no pro competition. I can only guess they think the 80,000 that go to cowboy games on Sunday are hurting college attendance. The issue with pro teams is through TVs and other media dominance, not live attendance and as far as I know Shreveport can get televised Saints games as well as the Cowboys. Likewise LSU and SEC games versus UT and Big 12 games, are the same issue. As far as sharing DFW with two private FB division schools, my guess is that 2,000,000 extra households trumps that point.

6. Geography is a two edged sword. The only down side for NT is it to close to other CUSA members that they fear increased competition. I keep seeing a familar point on both NT and LT sites, SMU will block NT entrance to CUSA. Maybe, but they have signed a contract for long term football games. They could just come to their senses and realize that it would be good for the fans and the budget. As far as travel, I would think NT has an edge with two major airports 30 miles away and I doubt many are in a hurry to go to Ruston.

7. Academics are always bannered about, but I don't think it will be a factor. Actually La Tech and NT are not far apart. Some stats from "College Stats" are retainment LT 72%, NT 74%; Graduation rate: LT 47%, NT 44%, Acceptance rate; LT 66%, NT 65%: 75 percentile ACT; LT 20 (SAT not reported), NT 21(SAT 1200) and student to faculty ratio; LT 88 to 12, NT 91 to 9, From schools sites, NT's admission standards are higher. La Tech reguires incoming freshmen to have either a 2.5/4.0 hs GPA, top quarter of class, or 23 ACT or 1050 SAT. NT automatically admits top 10% of hs class compared to LT top 25%. Next 15% at NT require 950 SAT or 20 ACT and second quarter 1050 SAT or 23 ACT (Any student would gain admission to La Tech with these scores). As far as degrees offered bachelors; NT 97, LT 82; masters; NT 101, LT 57; Doctors; NT 48, LT 9.

8. Other sports with the exception of MBB will be minor points . La Tech has a good basketball program but not up to NT in last few years. I don't think the lack of baseball will hurt NT at all. If CUSA required it, NT would have one next year.

9. Potential is an intangible that should make the decision. La Tech is limited by size and location. They are a relatively small school in a relatively small market in a state with severe economic problems despite a lot of support from their fan base; it is tough to visualize them significantly improving. NT of course is loaded with potential but has failed to significantly improve over its history. I can see NT in the next decade having 45,000 students with an additional 20,000,000 dollars flowing in from student activity fees plus greatly increased outside fund raising. NT should have state of the art non-AQ facilities. I don't see how Louisiana Tech can come close.

In summary, neither La Tech or NT may be chosen for anything or La Tech may be picked because they are not North Texas. But look at some of the stats and don't assume NT has nothing to offer or is not in a fairly good position.

Thank you for the time you put on this analysis. I asked the same question on another thread because I really know nothing about LT.

[wardly]

cusa has 4 schools in texas, but only one in florida. whats wrong with this picture? my money says neither nt or la. tech get spot if houston moves to mt. west., but that it goes to fau. same size as nt, building new stadium, and gets cusa back in south florida market. just an opinion based upon logic, which means nothing in realignment.

[GrayEagle]

cusa has 4 schools in texas, but only one in florida. whats wrong with this picture? my money says neither nt or la. tech get spot if houston moves to mt. west., but that it goes to fau. same size as nt, building new stadium, and gets cusa back in south florida market. just an opinion based upon logic, which means nothing in realignment.

Here is my problem with that logic.

The epicenter of CUSA would be near the Mississippi River; actually a little west of it. There are eight of twelve members west of Hattiesburg, Mississippi. Why would you want to move further away from the core of your member schools?

If and when the Big East decides to get with the rest of the BCS and increase their membership, UCF and East Carolina are almost assured to be gone. Marshall is a little more iffy but they could as well. That would leave UAB as the easternmost CUSA team.

Even if it didn't happen, you just jumped the travel expenses by a fairly large amount. In this economy, especially, it makes much more sense to try to reduce expenses.

[untjim1995]

cusa has 4 schools in texas, but only one in florida. whats wrong with this picture? my money says neither nt or la. tech get spot if houston moves to mt. west., but that it goes to fau. same size as nt, building new stadium, and gets cusa back in south florida market. just an opinion based upon logic, which means nothing in realignment.

I completely agree with you--I think that FAU and MTSU are in good shape here, too. Not saying UNT won't get an offer, but football drives the bus here and both of them have been substantially better than us over the last 5 years.

[UNTflyer]

Well nothing has happened yet in the Big East, ACC, or SEC. So who knows what will happen to CUSA in 2 weeks? They may be gutted almost as bad as the WAC.

I can see UCF and ECU going to ACC, Southern Miss and Memphis going SEC, and Marshall and UAB going Big East. But at this point I'm just kind of rooting for chaos.

[Harry]

I kind of feel like we need some more recent work history (football success) on our resume we are sending CUSA. That's why having a. 7-8 win season would be great! GMG!

[UNTflyer]

The media market and recruiting arguments posed by those who argue against inviting UNT seem to miss the point of gaining market share. SMU does not deliver the DFW market "in toto." Neither does TCU and neither does UNT. In fact, the entire market is carved up among about 8 or 9 schools (UT, A&M, and OU being the top 3). So to say that SMU already delivers the DFW media market is short sighted and wrong (not to mention completely laughable given their size and their local alumni base). No school can completely corner a media market of this size. Media dominance only occurs in smaller markets.

Recruiting is the same thing. No school can dominate a state the size of Texas, no matter how good they are. Ask the Horns and Aggies.

[NT91]

I like the flag...I have one on my pole at this time under the Texas flag.

Edited August 22, 2010 by NT91

[wardly]

The media market and recruiting arguments posed by those who argue against inviting UNT seem to miss the point of gaining market share. SMU does not deliver the DFW market "in toto." Neither does TCU and neither does UNT. In fact, the entire market is carved up among about 8 or 9 schools (UT, A&M, and OU being the top 3). So to say that SMU already delivers the DFW media market is short sighted and wrong (not to mention completely laughable given their size and their local alumni base). No school can completely corner a media market of this size. Media dominance only occurs in smaller markets.

Recruiting is the same thing. No school can dominate a state the size of Texas, no matter how good they are. Ask the Horns and Aggies.

the reason tcu is not in the big 12 is because texas and a&m both think they control the dfw markwt, and that the frogs bring nothing to the table. smu thinks they control the dfw market for cusa, and that nt brings nothing to the table. tcu thinks they control the dfw for mt. west, and that nt brings nothing to the table. as long as this is the thought process, then we are between a rock and a hard place regarding realighment. it probably is a mute point at present. looks like mt. west put the kabosh on byu's idea of independence. if so, mt. west will probably give utah st. the 12th slot as a condition of them staying. until we increase attendance in football and mens basketball, we better leard to love the belt.

[ColoradoEagle]

UT-Austin, and to a lesser extent, A&M are mostly correct. The other two are delusional.

[UNTflyer]

UT-Austin, and to a lesser extent, A&M are mostly correct. The other two are delusional.

Exactly. But as I said, nobody can corner a market of this size. And if you are commissioner of MWC or CUSA, would you rather gain another 10% of DFW (the 5th largest market) or 50% of Las Cruces-El Paso (#98)?

[foutsrouts]

Well nothing has happened yet in the Big East, ACC, or SEC. So who knows what will happen to CUSA in 2 weeks? They may be gutted almost as bad as the WAC.

I can see UCF and ECU going to ACC, Southern Miss and Memphis going SEC, and Marshall and UAB going Big East. But at this point I'm just kind of rooting for chaos.

You never know these days, but unless they're looking to double in size, I would be absolutely shocked to see the SEC add S. Miss. & Memphis. Probably too much snobbery involved for those two to be added simply because of their proximity and the quality of the Memphis BB program.

[PlummMeanGreen]

The media market and recruiting arguments posed by those who argue against inviting UNT seem to miss the point of gaining market share. SMU does not deliver the DFW market "in toto." Neither does TCU and neither does UNT. In fact, the entire market is carved up among about 8 or 9 schools (UT, A&M, and OU being the top 3). So to say that SMU already delivers the DFW media market is short sighted and wrong (not to mention completely laughable given their size and their local alumni base). No school can completely corner a media market of this size. Media dominance only occurs in smaller markets.

Recruiting is the same thing. No school can dominate a state the size of Texas, no matter how good they are. Ask the Horns and Aggies.

Just how many NT Exes are there in the Metroplex now compared to Texas Exes & "Former" TAMU students? Are there any stats on this? I know we have more but just how many more than the orange-bloods and maroon-ites?

Our new football palace will give our program a super booster shot that I believe will bring back older alums (at least those who don't have to work on Saturdays) and............. those who have had to stare at their shoes when talking about the Mean Green's football aspirations for Big Time yet were continuously shot down through the decades by our fellow DFW co-workers responding with: "Yeah, but what about that Fouts Field piece of crap yall have "not working" for those Big Time aspirations?" "What big time conference would want "THAT" venue in their conference media guides' roster of 'our members home stadiums?"

Those of you who have worked in DFW decade after decade know exactly what I'm saying here but "thank God Almighty" that era of Fouts Field being our eternal albatros is coming to a most welcome end.

Great Stadium + Great Top 50 Mean Green Football + Texas' Future 2'nd Largest Enrollment University ='s our alma mater flexing its long dormant muscle as the collegiate football ratings drawing darling in the North Texas Metroplex. Our UNT consituency & community numbers will insure it. It's a no brainer that even the poorest mathmatician would be able to figure out, too. HINT: It's all about numbers--always has been and we have them in larger portions.

It's All Good & It's All Green....(right FFR)?

Edited August 23, 2010 by PlummMeanGreen

[NM Green]

Are we a stretch for the Big East?

You would think TCU would be a natural fit but if they are married to the MWC certainly we could compete offering our lucrative position to UCONN, Cincinnati, Rutgers...I too think FAU presents an attractive expansion for CUSA. If CUSA goes with the Owls and the Frogs stay with the Mountain then we should utilize our attractive offerings to get into a stronger league. If TCU decides to fly East to the BE then we need to be ready to present ourselves to the MWC. I strongly believe we are a stronger more attractive option than SMU for DFW. There will be opportunities for us. Meanwhile Beat the Belt!!!!!

[eulesseagle]

GG, nice article. However, if decisions in the football world as well as the real world were based solely on statistics we would be living in Nervana. Unfortunately, decisions are made with money and politics which NT has virtually none of. Denton sits at the apex of the largest inland megolopolis in the United States and Ruston is in comparison the Petticoat Junction of the two. Look at some of the successful programs that are in the middle of "B.F. somewhere."

Do I believe that the "new" Fouts Field will improve NT's standing in the Metroplex? Of course. Will the "new" Fouts Field bring in more Metroplex alums? I hope so but time will tell. Look at SMU and how their, I guess you could call it a semi-new stadium, has responded to their metroplex success. Not too much attendance when they are in the "L" column but since the arrival of Coach Jones attendance has increased. You can almost say the same for TCU. New stadium vs. old stadium. Winning brings in the fans.

Edited August 23, 2010 by eulesseagle

[wardly]

GG, nice article. However, if decisions in the football world as well as the real world were based solely on statistics we would be living in Nervana. Unfortunately, decisions are made with money and politics which NT has virtually none of. Denton sits at the apex of the largest inland megolopolis in the United States and Ruston is in comparison the Petticoat Junction of the two. Look at some of the successful programs that are in the middle of "B.F. somewhere."

Do I believe that the "new" Fouts Field will improve NT's standing in the Metroplex? Of course. Will the "new" Fouts Field bring in more Metroplex alums? I hope so but time will tell. Look at SMU and how their, I guess you could call it a semi-new stadium, has responded to their metroplex success. Not too much attendance when they are in the "L" column but since the arrival of Coach Jones attendance has increased. You can almost say the same for TCU. New stadium vs. old stadium. Winning brings in the fans.

if winning brings the fans in, please explain our poor attendance and lack of support for our men's basketball program, or does your anology apply to football only? in addition, our football attendance has averaged about the same since the "dodge era" as it did when d.d. won 4 championships and went to the new bowl 2000/2004.

[DeepGreen]

Does anyone have the average attendance numbers in basketball for the past 10-15 seasons?

[KRAM1]

if winning brings the fans in, please explain our poor attendance and lack of support for our men's basketball program

I've been asking that question and waiting on a solid answer for some time now. The prevailing "wisdom" of many is that all you need do is to win at UNT and fans will flock to the football and basketball games. Well, I don't recall that many sell-outs when DD was winning the Sunbelt and UNT was going to the New Orleans Bowl...nor that many fans when Fry was beating the likes of Oklahoma state, Houston, Tennessee, etc. And, basketball attendance is really lacking for such a winning program.

The tired old "win and I'll come watch and so will lots of other people" is getting a bit lame when it comes to UNT. However, on the flip side, one should never count out winning as a catalyst for improved attendance.

I see attendance, season ticket sales, Mean green Club membership, Alumni Assoc. membership, etc. all on an upswing these days, and that is a great thing. Maybe lots of different things are "in play" to help that happen including the new stadium, a resurgence of UNT pride, the hiring of some new development personnel, etc., etc. So, keep the faith, I think we'll see increased attendance this season for both programs and even more next season with the opening of the new stadium.

It all starts with each person. Each person saying positive things to others about UNT, each person wearing Mean Green gear when appropriate, each person doing what they can (and only what they feel they can) to support financially the university, each person joining the Alumni Association to help them with their work, etc., etc. I can't "make" anyone support the Mean green nor act and say positive things, but I can control what I do and say in support of MY UNIVERSITY.

GO MEAN GREEN!

[KingDL1]

I've been asking that question and waiting on a solid answer for some time now. The prevailing "wisdom" of many is that all you need do is to win at UNT and fans will flock to the football and basketball games. Well, I don't recall that many sell-outs when DD was winning the Sunbelt and UNT was going to the New Orleans Bowl...nor that many fans when Fry was beating the likes of Oklahoma state, Houston, Tennessee, etc. And, basketball attendance is really lacking for such a winning program.

The tired old "win and I'll come watch and so will lots of other people" is getting a bit lame when it comes to UNT. However, on the flip side, one should never count out winning as a catalyst for improved attendance.

I see attendance, season ticket sales, Mean green Club membership, Alumni Assoc. membership, etc. all on an upswing these days, and that is a great thing. Maybe lots of different things are "in play" to help that happen including the new stadium, a resurgence of UNT pride, the hiring of some new development personnel, etc., etc. So, keep the faith, I think we'll see increased attendance this season for both programs and even more next season with the opening of the new stadium.

It all starts with each person. Each person saying positive things to others about UNT, each person wearing Mean Green gear when appropriate, each person doing what they can (and only what they feel they can) to support financially the university, each person joining the Alumni Association to help them with their work, etc., etc. I can't "make" anyone support the Mean green nor act and say positive things, but I can control what I do and say in support of MY UNIVERSITY.

GO MEAN GREEN!

This discussion comes up so often and I think it is at least three factors tied into this problem.

1 Winning matters and a tradition of winning will help.

2 Playing opponents that are recognizable to the average fan.

3 Repairing a poor sports and school pride culture.

Just look at the Baylor game during our run on the bowls, was that the largest crowd record?

Thing that will help as the future moves on just from the environment. Denton county and UNT are growing rapidly and a larger population close by can't hurt.

[VideoEagle]

if winning brings the fans in, please explain our poor attendance and lack of support for our men's basketball program, or does your anology apply to football only? in addition, our football attendance has averaged about the same since the "dodge era" as it did when d.d. won 4 championships and went to the new bowl 2000/2004.

It's not just winning, it's taking steps to make a bigger percentage of you fans the ones who will come to the games regardless of winning or losing. Attendance should be up for basketball, but it isn't. Attendance for football actually is up even though we aren't winning.

It's also more than just being in a particular conference. Arkstfan found a U of H media guide listing their attendance a while back. It is basically flat since the end of the SWC for season ticket sales. What is missing for them is the flood of fans when UT or A&M came to Houston but those folks don't buy season tickets or make donations to the program. That is why the whole "if we just play teams our fans know, all the problems would go away" logic is wrong.

[eulesseagle]

Wardly, I never mentioned bb in my post. However, attendance with a program of over 20+ wins over the last several season does seem to be one of those unexplained anomolies of the universe.

[EagleGreen]

cusa has 4 schools in texas, but only one in florida. whats wrong with this picture? my money says neither nt or la. tech get spot if houston moves to mt. west., but that it goes to fau. same size as nt, building new stadium, and gets cusa back in south florida market. just an opinion based upon logic, which means nothing in realignment.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. CUSA does not benefit from having another dallas market school. They will most likely look to expand into another market with the most popular school available. It all comes down to money and accolades; neither of wich UNT can provide at this juncture.