It's Only Going To Get Tougher For The Wac To Play Up

foutsrouts · June 30, 2010

Bet the farm on a very risky bet. WAC folds like a cheap suit. NT then homeless.

Great.

We all have to grow up and leave the safety of our childhood home eventually. Well, at least most of us. :lol:

Arkstfan · June 30, 2010

So the Sun Belt has grown a little. Who cares?...It hasn't grown enough and I don't believe it will have by the next realignment/superconferences/playoff system. Staying in the Sun Belt is a guaranteed death wish, but you would rather stay here?

I forget, we're North Texas....we never take risks. We only sit, hope, and wait for good things to happen yet we whine cause we don't get respect.

Actually what you are saying is your vision of UNT is of being a tick that sucks the blood of the host to survive. Since the Sun Belt's growth is dependent on schools finally winning some non-conference games and not being one in done in the NCAA Tournament, you want to find a slightly fatter dog to live off of while not doing anything fundamentally required to be a dog rather than a tick.

Dwayne From Minden · June 30, 2010

Actually what you are saying is your vision of UNT is of being a tick that sucks the blood of the host to survive. Since the Sun Belt's growth is dependent on schools finally winning some non-conference games and not being one in done in the NCAA Tournament, you want to find a slightly fatter dog to live off of while not doing anything fundamentally required to be a dog rather than a tick.

If I was ya'll or the Cajuns I wouldn't think twice about it now -

I figure we are out one way or the other in 24 months...

It was still the right choice for us in 1999, but I personally want no part of the WAC in 2012/13

VideoEagle · June 30, 2010

We all have to grow up and leave the safety of our childhood home eventually. Well, at least most of us.

Leave home makes sense. Moving to purposely become homeless and live under a bridge does not make sense.

Have you noticed that even fans of schools currently in the WAC as saying it would be a mistake for NT to join?

foutsrouts · June 30, 2010

Leave home makes sense. Moving to purposely become homeless and live under a bridge does not make sense.

Have you noticed that even fans of schools currently in the WAC as saying it would be a mistake for NT to join?

So you're saying that the SBC would shun our advances should the WAC implode after our admittance? That would be surprising, but if that did happen, I wouldn't mind going independent for a few years if our program is playing at a high level should that implosion occur. I think playing as a successful independent would make us more attractive to USA or a new regional conference than we would be as successful SBC members. Just my opinion of course, and I'm finally burned out on realignment talk so you can carry the issue for now.

Green Lantern · June 30, 2010

So the Sun Belt has grown a little. Who cares?...It hasn't grown enough and I don't believe it will have by the next realignment/superconferences/playoff system. Staying in the Sun Belt is a guaranteed death wish, but you would rather stay here?

I forget, we're North Texas....we never take risks. We only sit, hope, and wait for good things to happen yet we whine cause we don't get respect.

People seem to forget all the positive publicity that NT was getting back when we were winning the Sunbelt in football in the early part of the decade. It was better/similar to the talk that Troy and MT get now for being "up and comers" & being attractive candidates to other conferences.

All we need to do is focus on winning the games on our schedule, regardless of who they are against. The formula was working in the early part of the decade...now marry that with the $100 million in facilites upgrades, emerging as a power in SBC men's hoop, and marked improvement across the board in our non revenue sports, and suddenly UNT becomes a program that is very attractive to other conferences. SBC or WAC. It will make no difference.

Arkstfan · June 30, 2010

If I was ya'll or the Cajuns I wouldn't think twice about it now -

I figure we are out one way or the other in 24 months...

It was still the right choice for us in 1999, but I personally want no part of the WAC in 2012/13

Given what was known? Absolutely the correct choice, nothing to debate.

But in hindsight, probably would have played out significantly differently.

Sun Belt would have started with:

Arkansas St., Central Florida, Louisiana-Lafayette, Louisiana Tech, Middle Tennessee St., New Mexico St., and North Texas and likely Idaho because all Big West were offered an initial spot as a life raft in exchange for Arkansas State bringing the league down by withdrawing. Tech saying no might have opened the door for Utah State in the WAC. ULM wouldn't have had the votes (remember the membership didn't want them as full members until forced to add full members because of all the problems there).

GMAC which ended aligning with MAC and CUSA in 2001 had wanted to go with the Sun Belt until Tech and UCF pulled out of the process so the Sun Belt would have probably sent its champ there to face C-USA #2 instead of to New Orleans to face MWC and later CUSA #4.

New Orleans Bowl probably would probably have still be started but would have been Sun Belt #2 vs. CUSA #4 and likely wouldn't have started until 2002 or 03.

Utah State if not invited by the WAC for 2001 would likely have been rejected by the Sun Belt for 2003. Troy probably still would have come on board.

Chances are, Tech in 2001 would have gone to Mobile to face East Carolina instead of Boise to face Clemson. MAC would have tied with the WAC in Boise or San Jose sending Marshall to one of those two and Colorado State to the other, unless the New Orleans did start in 2001 in which case it would have been Middle in New Orleans vs. Colorado State.

Darrell Dickey probably wouldn't have run off the five game miracle and UNT would have hired a new coach in 2002.

If Tech had found success, the Bulldogs might have well gone to CUSA in 2005 and that success might have been sufficient for CUSA to tell Tulane to go jump in the lake sending Tulane to the WAC with SMU, Tulsa, and Rice while CUSA rebuilt with Marshall and Sun Belt schools or CUSA might have collapsed with only five teams after TCU's departure and the leagues merged.

I think the college football universe would look a bit different today. ULM would be back in the Southland if they still had football. I don't know that Idaho would survived either, they were teetering when they got the WAC invite which never would have come, if CUSA had called Tulane's bluff. SMU, Tulsa, Tulane and Rice would be in the WAC. The MAC wouldn't be hooked up to the GMAC. Utah State possibly would never have made it into the WAC. FIU probably wouldn't have moved up its I-A plans by several years, FAU probably never gets in the Sun Belt and WKU probably wouldn't have waited so long to go I-A.

Arkstfan · June 30, 2010

So you're saying that the SBC would shun our advances should the WAC implode after our admittance? That would be surprising, but if that did happen, I wouldn't mind going independent for a few years if our program is playing at a high level should that implosion occur. I think playing as a successful independent would make us more attractive to USA or a new regional conference than we would be as successful SBC members. Just my opinion of course, and I'm finally burned out on realignment talk so you can carry the issue for now.

????

Army and Navy are two of the best known names with their own TV deals assuring them that every home game is televised and they have issues filling out schedules as independents.

cdizzle86 · June 30, 2010

Actually what you are saying is your vision of UNT is of being a tick that sucks the blood of the host to survive. Since the Sun Belt's growth is dependent on schools finally winning some non-conference games and not being one in done in the NCAA Tournament, you want to find a slightly fatter dog to live off of while not doing anything fundamentally required to be a dog rather than a tick.

If and when we start winning more, the WAC, as a conference offers us much more success and positive publicity. The Sun Belt has much more holding a university back than just being a winning program.

VideoEagle · June 30, 2010

If and when we start winning more, the WAC, as a conference offers us much more success and positive publicity. The Sun Belt has much more holding a university back than just being a winning program.

Since there has been dozens of real world examples of why this isn't true shown over the last few weeks, do you have anything to support this statement?

LoveMG · June 30, 2010

Since there has been dozens of real world examples of why this isn't true shown over the last few weeks, do you have anything to support this statement?

ask any person on the street. try the unt campus. ask which is a better conference wac or suckbelt. want to guess the answer bubba?

ColoradoEagle · June 30, 2010

ask any person on the street. try the unt campus. ask which is a better conference wac or suckbelt. want to guess the answer bubba?

"The who and the what?"

LoveMG · June 30, 2010

Fry bet the farm and lost, but he wasn't around to pay the price for the ensuing 23 years. He moved on to bigger and better things while NT had its athletics set back a quarter of a century.

wrong on that one. fry gave north texas a sample of what it could have become with winning and proper leadership. poor attendance and lack of school funding caused him to leave and the program to decline.

ColoradoEagle · June 30, 2010

I don't take issue with anything that he did except removing NT from the MVC. I wasn't there to see everything happen, but it seems like being independent didn't do NT any favors after he left.

LoveMG · June 30, 2010

I don't take issue with anything that he did except removing NT from the MVC. I wasn't there to see everything happen, but it seems like being independent didn't do NT any favors after he left.

the mvc as i heard was already breaking up. some schools had already left before ntsu and some the same time we did and whichita dropped football. fry took the best option at the time to go indy is what a friend said. while trying to get into swc

Edited June 30, 2010 by LoveMG

ColoradoEagle · June 30, 2010

the mvc as i heard was already breaking up. some schools had already left before ntsu and some the same time we did and whichita dropped football. fry took the best option at the time to go indy is what a friend said. while trying to get into swc

Just looked at the conference timeline and you're right. I retract my misinformed ramblings. :lol:

Still, could we not have joined the Metro Conference back in the day, or were we on the wrong side of a WAC/MWC-like split?

Edited June 30, 2010 by ColoradoEagle

SUMG · June 30, 2010

I don't take issue with anything that he did except removing NT from the MVC. I wasn't there to see everything happen, but it seems like being independent didn't do NT any favors after he left.

The Mo Valley as Love MG points out...was falling apart. Louisville left the year we did (1974). Memphis left in 1973...Cincinnati in 1969. The Mo Valley still had Tulsa, New Mexico State, Wichita State (for a while---before they dropped), West Texas State.....and a bunch of basketball or 1-AA football schools...Bradley, Southern Illinois).

I'm pretty sure when we left....that Tulsa went Indy shortly thereafter, as well.

As to Coach Fry....I love the guy. But even if he did make a wrong move here or there...if a school can't recover from a wrong move in 31 years....the school is the problem. (And btw...I don't think he made a wrong move by going independent).

Edited June 30, 2010 by SUMG

VideoEagle · June 30, 2010

Even if Haden had stayed, unless Fouts had been expanded before 1980 season we would have been forced down to 1AA. To stay 1A, we would have needed a much bigger stadium or home and away attendance that averaged over 20,000. That would not have been easy in a 20k stadium!

But SUMG is right about the fact we have had 31 years to recover!

Edited June 30, 2010 by VideoEagle

SUMG · June 30, 2010

By the way...this is Wikipedia...so I can only hope everything is accurate. But if it is...look at some of the former members of the Mo Valley. Impressive group. (even though you have to go quite a ways back on some of them):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_Valley_Conference

UNTLifer · June 30, 2010

Even if Haden had stayed, unless Fouts had been expanded before 1980 season we would have been forced down to 1AA. To stay 1A, we would have needed a much bigger stadium or home and away attendance that averaged over 20,000. That would not have been easy in a 20k stadium!

But SUMG is right about the fact we have had 31 years to recover!

Which leads right in to our previous discussion about Boise State's success. They were in the Big West when we were, but you know why they've now moved on? Because their administration and the Boise community decided they wanted a top notch program, so they supported the heck out of it. They moved on to the MWC because of what they did for themselves, not because of the WAC.

Fry mainly left because NT and Denton didn't or wouldn't support the program like they should have and he saw the writing on the wall. NT could have done much more to support the program when Fry was here and in the year's after he left to elevate the program, but instead they underfunded the program and we ended up in 1AA for far too long. We are just now doing it the right way.

ColoradoEagle · June 30, 2010

Fry mainly left because NT and Denton didn't or wouldn't support the program like they should have and he saw the writing on the wall. NT could have done much more to support the program when Fry was here and in the year's after he left to elevate the program, but instead they underfunded the program and we ended up in 1AA for far too long. We are just now doing it the right way.

You know, something just popped into my head and maybe it was talked about a bit at the end of last season when I wasn't reading the football board as much. Could it be that the only reason we're giving Dodge another season is because we have nothing to lose? Win 7 games, and great, we have our coach. Win 4 or 5 games, and we can finally offer a good FBS-level head coach's salary because the student fee kicks in?

We could even be a step up from other SBC, MAC, WAC, or even MWC schools.

Edited June 30, 2010 by ColoradoEagle

Arkstfan · July 1, 2010

the mvc as i heard was already breaking up. some schools had already left before ntsu and some the same time we did and whichita dropped football. fry took the best option at the time to go indy is what a friend said. while trying to get into swc

UNT left in 1974 Wichita didn't drop football until after the 1986 season. But Cincinnati, Louisville, and Memphis all left just before or in 1974.

LoveMG · July 1, 2010

Which leads right in to our previous discussion about Boise State's success. They were in the Big West when we were, but you know why they've now moved on? Because their administration and the Boise community decided they wanted a top notch program, so they supported the heck out of it.

it had more to do with getting good coaches and a lot of winning. mississippi state has a lot of support but poor coaching and few wins. support had little to do with boise success except look good on tv.

Edited July 1, 2010 by LoveMG

VideoEagle · July 1, 2010

it had more to do with getting good coaches and a lot of winning. support had little to do with it except look good on tv. mississippi state has a lot of support but poor coaching and few wins.

I think getting good coaches is a part of the support. Besides, Hawkins was "brilliant" as a coach at Boise, but an "idiot" on Colorado. It's the same guy - what happened?

NT80 · July 1, 2010

UNT left in 1974 Wichita didn't drop football until after the 1986 season. But Cincinnati, Louisville, and Memphis all left just before or in 1974.

Hayden Fry had a plan for upgrading everything at North Texas from uniforms to schedule to conference. It almost worked except that it went too fast for Denton and the school administrators to accept, believe, and get behind. The small town and small thinking weren't ready.

He then took his plan to Iowa City, Ia and it too worked there. But they were ready and more than willing to get behind it and ride the wave...all the way to the Rose Bowl.