It's Only Going To Get Tougher For The Wac To Play Up

MeanGreen61 · July 1, 2010

I think getting good coaches is a part of the support. Besides, Hawkins was "brilliant" as a coach at Boise, but an "idiot" on Colorado. It's the same guy - what happened?

One thing that certainly didn't help was playing a Big XII schedule vs a WAC schedule.

foutsrouts · July 1, 2010

Hayden Fry had a plan for upgrading everything at North Texas from uniforms to schedule to conference. It almost worked except that it went too fast for Denton and the school administrators to accept, believe, and get behind. The small town and small thinking weren't ready.

He then took his plan to Iowa City, Ia and it too worked there. But they were ready and more than willing to get behind it and ride the wave...all the way to the Rose Bowl.

I hate to mention the evil wannabe empire down off of Central Expressway, but Fry and the leaders on that campus were not exactly pen pals back in those days. A whole lot of bad blood was flowing over an incident or two, and I think that may have hurt our SWC ambitions more than anything.

VideoEagle · July 1, 2010

I hate to mention the evil wannabe empire down off of Central Expressway, but Fry and the leaders on that campus were not exactly pen pals back in those days. A whole lot of bad blood was flowing over an incident or two, and I think that may have hurt our SWC ambitions more than anything.

While there is no real doubt SMU opposed NT's SWC membership in the late 70s, they were not the only ones. Houston got in during the mid-70s and dominated for a while. The thought of yet another, large state school led by Haden Fry could not have been an appealing thought to TCU, Rice or Baylor. Tech did a LOT of recruiting in the mid-cities at the time and they would not have wanted the competition either. That was five out of the nine who ranged from actively opposed to "rather not if they had a choice (which they did)."

Also, I don't remember the exact details of the 1AA rule, but stadiums had to be expanded larger than 20K before the 1980 season and/or home and away attendance had to average over 20K as well. I think we could have avoided relegation to 1AA based on away attendance raising the average total attendance enough, but I'm not certain. I know it was the only retro-active rule ever passed by the NCAA so no one had a chance to expand their stadium to comply - it had to be completed before the legislation passed. That inherent unfairness, it was retro active, is one reason the Presidents are highly unlikely to pass similar rules ever again.

Edited July 1, 2010 by VideoEagle

JayDub · July 1, 2010

Upon reading and re-reading this thread I've come up with the following conclusions:

1.) You people are delusional.

2.) You guys really need to get out more.

The Sun Belt is a joke. The faster people running the show (and the fans) at NT realize that, the better off they'll be. North Texas fans have bitched and moaned for years about the lack of respect North Texas gets on the national scene. Most respect is earned, some is perceived. Athletically, we've done little to earn respect...and, as long as North Texas is a member of the Sun Belt conference, their perceived respect level will continue to hover just above the number zero.

Arkstfan · July 1, 2010

Upon reading and re-reading this thread I've come up with the following conclusions:

1.) You people are delusional.
2.) You guys really need to get out more.

The Sun Belt is a joke. The faster people running the show (and the fans) at NT realize that, the better off they'll be. North Texas fans have bitched and moaned for years about the lack of respect North Texas gets on the national scene. Most respect is earned, some is perceived. Athletically, we've done little to earn respect...and, as long as North Texas is a member of the Sun Belt conference, their perceived respect level will continue to hover just above the number zero.

Boise won 20 games in two years in the Big West and made something of themselves to get respect. It starts at home not with the patch on a jersey.

UNTLifer · July 1, 2010

Upon reading and re-reading this thread I've come up with the following conclusions:

1.) You people are delusional.
2.) You guys really need to get out more.

The Sun Belt is a joke. The faster people running the show (and the fans) at NT realize that, the better off they'll be. North Texas fans have bitched and moaned for years about the lack of respect North Texas gets on the national scene. Most respect is earned, some is perceived. Athletically, we've done little to earn respect...and, as long as North Texas is a member of the Sun Belt conference, their perceived respect level will continue to hover just above the number zero.

Let's see, you live in Utah correct? How's all that national respect helping out USU since they joined the WAC?

buff64 · July 1, 2010

UNT left in 1974 Wichita didn't drop football until after the 1986 season. But Cincinnati, Louisville, and Memphis all left just before or in 1974.

West Texas left the Missouri Conf. about the same time.

DeepGreen · July 1, 2010

While there is no real doubt SMU opposed NT's SWC membership in the late 70s, they were not the only ones. Houston got in during the mid-70s and dominated for a while. The thought of yet another, large state school led by Haden Fry could not have been an appealing thought to TCU, Rice or Baylor. Tech did a LOT of recruiting in the mid-cities at the time and they would not have wanted the competition either. That was five out of the nine who ranged from actively opposed to "rather not if they had a choice (which they did)."

Also, I don't remember the exact details of the 1AA rule, but stadiums had to be expanded larger than 20K before the 1980 season and/or home and away attendance had to average over 20K as well. I think we could have avoided relegation to 1AA based on away attendance raising the average total attendance enough, but I'm not certain. I know it was the only retro-active rule ever passed by the NCAA so no one had a chance to expand their stadium to comply - it had to be completed before the legislation passed. That inherent unfairness, it was retro active, is one reason the Presidents are highly unlikely to pass similar rules ever again.

I seem to recall that for a program to remain at the top level (D1A) in 1980, stadium capacity had to be 30,000 or more. UNT opted to not spend the money to upgrade Fouts, thus dropping to D1AA. We remained in D1AA purgatory until 1995, our first full season in D1A. UNT spent something like $1 million to add the erector set seats to Fouts to get to the 30K. Wonder what those extra seats would have cost had we expanded them back in '79-'80 to meet the NCAA's requirements? And I wonder what it cost UNT to sit in 1AA purgatory for the next 10+ years? CUSA perhaps? <_<

VideoEagle · July 1, 2010

I seem to recall that for a program to remain at the top level (D1A) in 1980, stadium capacity had to be 30,000 or more. UNT opted to not spend the money to upgrade Fouts, thus dropping to D1AA. We remained in D1AA purgatory until 1995, our first full season in D1A. UNT spent something like $1 million to add the erector set seats to Fouts to get to the 30K. Wonder what those extra seats would have cost had we expanded them back in '79-'80 to meet the NCAA's requirements? And I wonder what it cost UNT to sit in 1AA purgatory for the next 10+ years? CUSA perhaps?

No one knew there was going to be a 30k seat requirement. It was passed retroactively. Actually, I think it was not just a stadium size requirement but an average attendance home and away of 20K plus. But the key was it was passed retroactively so no one affected could do anything about it. No one ever considered expanding Fouts during Hayden's days as we were not selling out and at the time there was no reason to foresee a minimum seat requirement.

NT80 · July 1, 2010

No one knew there was going to be a 30k seat requirement. It was passed retroactively. Actually, I think it was not just a stadium size requirement but an average attendance home and away of 20K plus. But the key was it was passed retroactively so no one affected could do anything about it. No one ever considered expanding Fouts during Hayden's days as we were not selling out and at the time there was no reason to foresee a minimum seat requirement.

Actually Hayden did consider expanding Fouts and wanted to. Rick Spears designed for him (at Fry's request) an expansion of Fouts based on losing the track and dropping the field level down. He built a nice scale model of it for Fry and still has the framed photo of it; he will tell you all about it and those plans.

I think it was finally determined that there was a water table or piping issue below Fouts that prevented it from being dropped down. Plus Texas Stadium had recently opened and Fry just transferred the better games to that venue.

Edited July 1, 2010 by NT80

SilverEagle · July 1, 2010

Actually Hayden did consider expanding Fouts and wanted to. Rick Spears designed for him (at Fry's request) an expansion of Fouts based on losing the track and dropping the field level down. He built a nice scale model of it for Fry and still has the framed photo of it; he will tell you all about it and those plans.

I think it was finally determined that there was a water table or piping issue below Fouts that prevented it from being dropped down. Plus Texas Stadium had recently opened and Fry just transferred the better games to that venue.

We had already been playing "better games" at TS. In 71 we played two games at Texas Stadium (Louisville and Wichita State)and one game at the Cotton Bowl...BYU.

Arkstfan · July 1, 2010

When Division I was split into I-A and I-AA for 1979 to be I-A you had to sponsor a minimum number of sports above the basic Division I level. If you didn't sponsor the minimum you could be I-A under an exception the exception being average 17,000 a year in football over the past four years OR play in a 30,000 seat stadium and average 17,000 a year once in a four year period.

After the 1981 season ended, at the NCAA Convention the rules for I-A were changed effective for the 1982 season (so no one would have time to adjust).

The new rules became:

1. Average 17,000 a year over the past four years.

2. OR average 17,000 one of the prior four years if you had 30,000 seats.

3. AND in both cases, play 60% of your games against I-A schools.

Three exceptions were created.

1. Average 20,000 home and away attendance over the past four years.

2. Average 20,000 home and away attendance in one of the past four years if you had 30,000 seats.

3. Be a member of a conference where more than half of the members met I-A criteria.

The exceptions could only be used to retain I-A status, not to attain it.

NT80 · July 1, 2010

When Division I was split into I-A and I-AA for 1979 to be I-A you had to sponsor a minimum number of sports above the basic Division I level. If you didn't sponsor the minimum you could be I-A under an exception the exception being average 17,000 a year in football over the past four years OR play in a 30,000 seat stadium and average 17,000 a year once in a four year period.

After the 1981 season ended, at the NCAA Convention the rules for I-A were changed effective for the 1982 season (so no one would have time to adjust).

The new rules became:
1. Average 17,000 a year over the past four years.
2. OR average 17,000 one of the prior four years if you had 30,000 seats.
3. AND in both cases, play 60% of your games against I-A schools.

Three exceptions were created.
1. Average 20,000 home and away attendance over the past four years.
2. Average 20,000 home and away attendance in one of the past four years if you had 30,000 seats.
3. Be a member of a conference where more than half of the members met I-A criteria.

The exceptions could only be used to retain I-A status, not to attain it.

I heard that North Texas could have met the requirements since we were using Texas Stadium as our home facility for many games with Fry but after he left the paperwork was not filed in time and the administration in 1980 wouldn't fight it (didn't mind seeing athletics become less prominent since Fry had left). We were basically demoted to 1-AA because of an office snafu and lack of desire from the university administration then.

VideoEagle · July 1, 2010

I heard that North Texas could have met the requirements since we were using Texas Stadium as our home facility for many games with Fry but after he left the paperwork was not filed in time and the administration in 1980 wouldn't fight it (didn't mind seeing athletics become less prominent since Fry had left). We were basically demoted to 1-AA because of an office snafu and lack of desire from the university administration then.

That is absolutely, positively false. There never was a "magic piece of paper" that "someone in the office forgot to file." This rumor is like the Locke Ness Monster, it keeps popping up.

To call Texas Stadium our "home stadium" we would have need to play all but one or two of our home games there in 1980 and 81, years AFTER Hayden left after the 78 season. Even while he was here, we did not play the majority of our home games at Texas Stadium and it thus could never have been called our primary home stadium.

Even IF it Texas Stadium was our primary home stadium, I don't think we met the 17000 average home attendance for any year between 1978 and 1981 when it would have been necessary to do so to quality as 1A. We certainly didn't meet it for 4 years straight.

I wish this stupid and completely inaccurate rumor would stop circulating! But, Elvis really was seen at the Dunkin' Donuts on University in the summer of 81.

NT80 · July 1, 2010

That is absolutely, positively false. There never was a "magic piece of paper" that "someone in the office forgot to file." This rumor is like the Locke Ness Monster, it keeps popping up.

To call Texas Stadium our "home stadium" we would have need to play all but one or two of our home games there in 1980 and 81, years AFTER Hayden left after the 78 season. Even while he was here, we did not play the majority of our home games at Texas Stadium and it thus could never have been called our primary home stadium.

Even IF it Texas Stadium was our primary home stadium, I don't think we met the 17000 average home attendance for any year between 1978 and 1981 when it would have been necessary to do so to quality as 1A. We certainly didn't meet it for 4 years straight.

I wish this stupid and completely inaccurate rumor would stop circulating! But, Elvis really was seen at the Dunkin' Donuts on University in the summer of 81.

Don't know where you get your info but I heard from employees of the athletic department at that time.

MeanGreen61 · July 1, 2010

That is absolutely, positively false. There never was a "magic piece of paper" that "someone in the office forgot to file." This rumor is like the Locke Ness Monster, it keeps popping up.

To call Texas Stadium our "home stadium" we would have need to play all but one or two of our home games there in 1980 and 81, years AFTER Hayden left after the 78 season. Even while he was here, we did not play the majority of our home games at Texas Stadium and it thus could never have been called our primary home stadium.

Even IF it Texas Stadium was our primary home stadium, I don't think we met the 17000 average home attendance for any year between 1978 and 1981 when it would have been necessary to do so to quality as 1A. We certainly didn't meet it for 4 years straight.

I wish this stupid and completely inaccurate rumor would stop circulating! But, Elvis really was seen at the Dunkin' Donuts on University in the summer of 81.

Just how do you know that the failure to file the proper papers is not the truth ?

Edited July 1, 2010 by MeanGreen61

Arkstfan · July 1, 2010

Just how do you know that the failure to file the proper papers is not the truth ?

Probably because UNT didn't play most of its home games in a 30,000 seat or larger stadium and would not have met the criteria.

PlummMeanGreen · July 1, 2010

Probably because UNT didn't play most of its home games in a 30,000 seat or larger stadium and would not have met the criteria.

Nevertheless, many of us to this day still admire ULouisiana (and La Tech, right?) who bit the bullet to never have the extra "A" added to their classification.

Not sure how that really hurt North Texas with the college football politicos, but I think I know how most UNT alums felt about it.

Edited July 1, 2010 by PlummMeanGreen

VideoEagle · July 1, 2010

Don't know where you get your info but I heard from employees of the athletic department at that time.

Did we play all but two or less home games in Texas Stadium during the 1981 season. If no, then no matter who you talked to, we could not count Texas Stadium as our primary home stadium.

Did we average 17,000 a year from 1978 through 1981? If no, then we since we could not call Texas Stadium our home stadium we could not have qualified for 1A status.

I know we didn't come close to averaging 20000 both home and away from 1978 through 1981 so we could not have qualified that way. And we were not members of a conference where at least half of the membership met the 1A requirements.

There is a chance that NT intended to file for a waiver to remain 1A and never did that. However, as Arkstfan knows better than I none of the requests for waivers were granted. Thus, filing the request of a waiver would have made no difference.

Based on NCAA rules, there is nothing North Texas could have done to stay 1A in 1982. It was completely impossible.

Please put the rumor to bed once and for all.

LoveMG · July 1, 2010

hurley did no favors for unt athletics

VideoEagle · July 1, 2010

hurley did no favors for unt athletics

Well, he did allow us to keep a 1AA team when there were some faculty pushing to be rid of football altogether. But you are right he didn't help in build athletics back.

Edited July 1, 2010 by VideoEagle

Arkstfan · July 1, 2010

Nevertheless, many of us to this day still admire ULouisiana (and La Tech, right?) who bit the bullet to never have the extra "A" added to their classification.
Not sure how that really hurt North Texas with the college football politicos, but I think I know how most UNT alums felt about it.

Nope Tech went to I-AA and like ASU even made it to the title game but unlike ULM, we both got dumped in the championship game.

GrandGreen · July 1, 2010

During Fry's era, Texas Stadium, was considered the home stadium along with Fouts. Not sure what that has to do with going 1aa which happened several years later after Jerry Moore and Bob Tyler.

I have never believed the failure to file documents story, although it has persisted for decades. Do you really think NT administration was so glueless that if they had chosen to fight the 1aa demotion; they would have failed because they didn't send in documents on time and then just gave up?

I think Dr. Hurley and crew were more than happy to drop down. They in their minds had survived Fry and his big ideas and had just got through the disaster of Bob Tyler. I also thought that they figured that NT would go to the Southland and dominate, which never really happened. They discovered that although their budget and tradition should have led to Southland success that their insistance on much higher academic standards for athletes then the norm in the Southland, hindered them greatly.