If They Enforced The Attendance Rules..

GrayEagle · June 28, 2010

Five have broken the 15,000 every other year rule. Two are in the WAC, and one each in the MAC, CUSA and the SBC. Which ones do you know?

I don't know if it's indifference, politics or request of the conference but they should never enforce this rule on anyone. If they want to eliminate the bottom feeders then they need to get a new rule and up the ante to say 18,000.

akriesman · June 28, 2010

An 18,000 average requirement would suit me just fine. Frankly, if you can't average 18k, you probably don't belong in the FBS. This includes UNT, even though I don't see this as a problem for us.

The one caveat is probably weather. A game with 30+ degree temperatures and a pouring rain is going to kill attendance. So, each team should probably be able to throw out a "bad weather game" to get their average.

VideoEagle · June 28, 2010

My understanding is the NCAA will never actually force a school down because of the attendance rule. The chair of the NCAA committee on that rule was one of the Mac Presidents and at once point three Mac schools were in violation. The Sun Belt, Wac and CUSA all have representation on that committee and no one is going to force someone down if that hurts their conference or another non-AQ conference.

Arkstfan knows more of the specifics, but the way the rule works, a school in repeated violation is put on a kind of probation, but not regular NCAA probation just attendance probation. As long as they can meet the average, which everyone finds a to do, they will then come off of probation.

As I understand it, this is the only rule on the NCAA books that could force a school that had already qualified and was willing to pay the costs of a given classification to have to drop in classification against their will. There was huge backlash 30 years ago when a number of 1A schools were forced against their will to 1AA. No school was given an exemption. The closest to getting an exemption was Ark State as the has a number of SEC schools pleading their case for them. AFter that, the Presidents decided they would make it hard to move up, but if you were willing to pay the costs to be at a higher level you would not be forced down.

NT80 · June 28, 2010

An 18,000 average requirement would suit me just fine. Frankly, if you can't average 18k, you probably don't belong in the FBS. This includes UNT, even though I don't see this as a problem for us.

The one caveat is probably weather. A game with 30+ degree temperatures and a pouring rain is going to kill attendance. So, each team should probably be able to throw out a "bad weather game" to get their average.

Schools would just find a way to skirt the rule if the NCAA ever started to enforce it. If ULM can have a bogus "home" game in Little Rock against Arkansas, and Arkansas St. can "host" Missouri in Kansas City, it makes legitimate attendance requirements meaningless.

jtm0097 · June 28, 2010

Eastern Michigan only averaged 5,016 people a game, they had the lowest attendance in the FBS. Im sure some D-III schools avearge more fans than that.

UNT Mean Green · June 28, 2010

Five have broken the 15,000 every other year rule. Two are in the WAC, and one each in the MAC, CUSA and the SBC. Which ones do you know?

I don't know if it's indifference, politics or request of the conference but they should never enforce this rule on anyone. If they want to eliminate the bottom feeders then they need to get a new rule and up the ante to say 18,000.

My guesses on low, low attendance numbers would be (regardless of conference) :

Ball State, Bowling Green, Buffalo, Eastern Michigan, Florida Atlantic, Florida International, Idaho, Kent State, Louisiana-Monroe, Miami of Ohio, Northern Illinois, Rice, San Jose State

Those schools are located in markets that do not allow for a ton of support for a variety of reasons.

Mean Green 93-98 · June 28, 2010

My guesses on low, low attendance numbers would be (regardless of conference) :

Ball State, Bowling Green, Buffalo, Eastern Michigan, Florida Atlantic, Florida International, Idaho, Kent State, Louisiana-Monroe, Miami of Ohio, Northern Illinois, Rice, San Jose State

Those schools are located in markets that do not allow for a ton of support for a variety of reasons.

See p. 6.

I didn't go through it all, but your guess looks to be as good as any.

stebo · June 28, 2010

I get one from CUSA (Rice). 5 from the MAC (NIU, Ball, Bowling Green, EMU, Miami (OH)), 2 from the Belt (FIU, ULM), and 1 from the WACky (Idaho).

My feeling is that attendance can always be fudged. The true measure should be athletic budget and sports offered. All FBS programs should have a minimum of $15 million/year budget and at least 16 NCAA sponsored championship sports.

Arkstfan · June 28, 2010

There are two sets of numbers.

The announced which go on the form you see from the NCAA. Then there are the certified numbers which the NCAA will not release.

Both sets are fudged depending on need.

KC Star did an FOI and found Kansas or KState was over announcing by a wide factor the numbers we see. I know from what I hear there are some schools that announce under 15,000 but certify a higher number. If you donate $100 it is recorded as purchasing 10 or 20 tickets which are then recorded as a face value donation to the booster club. The Tampa Tribune investigated USF as they were transitioning and found they used that method after they discovered turnstile counts were about a third of reported attendance.

Some of you may recall when the new rules were adopted that I said no school that wants to stay and can afford to stay will ever be kicked out. Until Eastern Michigan is booted I will stand by that.

As noted above in all of the NCAA divisional membership is an institutional choice. You choose whether to offer athletic aid and how much and how many sports to sponsor. Those decisions choose your your affiliation for you. Except in FBS football.

GrayEagle · June 28, 2010

I get one from CUSA (Rice). 5 from the MAC (NIU, Ball, Bowling Green, EMU, Miami (OH)), 2 from the Belt (FIU, ULM), and 1 from the WACky (Idaho).

My feeling is that attendance can always be fudged. The true measure should be athletic budget and sports offered. All FBS programs should have a minimum of $15 million/year budget and at least 16 NCAA sponsored championship sports.

My figures are from the NCAA web site and you have four of the five. Rice (missed four of the last five years),

Eastern Michigan (missed four as well with two years of averaging less than 10,000), Idaho (they'd almost have to fill their stadium every time) and FIU (barely made it their first year and then have missed the last three).

The one that you missed sort of shocked me. It was Utah State, who missed four consecutive years before finally getting almost 16,000 last year.

The others have all missed at least once. Ball State really plays it. They miss one year then make it the following then repeat the process.

Actually, I found a sixth culprit that I failed to mark...Kent State.

In my opinion either everyone deficient needs to cheat or the rule needs to be repealed but don't make it so blatant.

Since b-i-s is no longer the requirement, ticket sales can be fudged dramatically.