The Case For And Against The Wac

LoveMG · June 22, 2010

Not a qualification for major status. The WAC has never, in the current era of the BCS, been considered a major basketball conference.

bcs is a designation for football only.

the wac is ahead of the sunbelt in nearly every sport and funding by nearly every school.

Daddy Dumpsalot · June 22, 2010

the wac is ahead of the sunbelt in nearly every sport and funding by nearly every school.

+15

TXST_CAT · June 22, 2010

My friend, Texas State and all the other Div I-AA schools will not be part of this realignment. Why? Because financial viability will be a huge concern for the NCAA. They just addedd the conference affiliation rule for moving up. You don't add more rules if you want teams to transition up. They want FBS to stay at 120 teams (121 when So. Alabama finishes its transition).

FYI our budget is Larger than yours by 3 mill and our stadium is about to seat 25k by 2012 with future expansion to take it over 35k. Also that 19 mill budget will increase every year until it reaches aprox 25million. As is now our avg Football attendance is 13k only 5k less than UNT and we play teams that get little to no love in Texas. If we go to the WAC UNT will be left behind. When we play in state FBS teams we bring several thousand with us. Not smack just some facts incase you didn't know. Having TXST as a conference mate would be good for UNT. Most people want to join CUSA because they have multiple Texas teams. Well if the WAC west with UNT, TXST and UTSA were to form it would make for good rivalries in state. jmo

Rudy · June 22, 2010

FYI our budget is Larger than yours by 3 mill and our stadium is about to seat 25k by 2012 with future expansion to take it over 35k. Also that 19 mill budget will increase every year until it reaches aprox 25million. As is now our avg Football attendance is 13k only 5k less than UNT and we play teams that get little to no love in Texas. If we go to the WAC UNT will be left behind. When we play in state FBS teams we bring several thousand with us. Not smack just some facts incase you didn't know. Having TXST as a conference mate would be good for UNT. Most people want to join CUSA because they have multiple Texas teams. Well if the WAC west with UNT, TXST and UTSA were to form it would make for good rivalries in state. jmo

By all means, join the WAC and see what the travel costs do to your non revenue sports.

TXST_CAT · June 22, 2010

By all means, join the WAC and see what the travel costs do to your non revenue sports.

You can't save your way to rich. Sometimes you have to spend money to make money.

ColoradoEagle · June 22, 2010

Having TXST as a conference mate would be good for UNT. Most people want to join CUSA because they have multiple Texas teams. Well if the WAC west with UNT, TXST and UTSA were to form it would make for good rivalries in state. jmo

If we were interested in a continuing series with TSUSM and friends, we wouldn't have left the Southland. Go talk smack at them.

GrandGreen · June 22, 2010

FYI our budget is Larger than yours by 3 mill and our stadium is about to seat 25k by 2012 with future expansion to take it over 35k. Also that 19 mill budget will increase every year until it reaches aprox 25million. As is now our avg Football attendance is 13k only 5k less than UNT and we play teams that get little to no love in Texas. If we go to the WAC UNT will be left behind. When we play in state FBS teams we bring several thousand with us. Not smack just some facts incase you didn't know. Having TXST as a conference mate would be good for UNT. Most people want to join CUSA because they have multiple Texas teams. Well if the WAC west with UNT, TXST and UTSA were to form it would make for good rivalries in state. jmo

Not to let facts get in the way, TSUSM athletic budget for 2009 was $13,422,0000: a big leap from previous years. NT was $17,184,000 or $3,742,000 more. Lots of luck with that WAC thing. TSUSM has two things going for it, it got approved a large student fee and some how got common use of the Texas State moniker. I do hope you have to play a FB division schedule before you leave NT in the dust.

GrandGreen · June 22, 2010

A few numbers relative to the Belt and WAC;

Distances: The farest Belt game at Miami is closer than 5 of the 8 WAC teams.

Driving Distances except Hawaii

Distances from Denton: Monroe 321, Lafayette 428, Jonesboro 461, Mobil 622, Murfreesboro 710, Troy 726, Boca Raton 1355, and Miami 1399

Distances from Denton: Ruston 290, Las Cruces 682, Logan 1359, Fresno 1519, San Jose 1653, Reno 1933, Moscow 1974, and Manoa (who knows, approx. 3800)

Operating Expenses: 2008-2009 as reported to NCAA (always highly suspect)

In Thousands

WKU 22,322, FIU 21,801, MTSU 19,441. NT 17,184, FAU 15,969, TROY 15,458, ULL 11,941, ASU 11,052 AND ULM 10,131

HAWAII 35,717, NMSU 28,791, FRESNO 28,645, NEVADA 23,998, SAN JOSE 17,810, USU 17,802, LA TECH 15,967, IDAHO 15,618

I never believe these numbers. There is just too many ways to slant them. You want a big number just allocate more indirect costs and offset with revenues from institutional funds.

I am still amazed at the reported numbers by NMSU. They should have killed in the Belt with budgets like that.

Edited June 22, 2010 by GrandGreen

MeanGreen61 · June 22, 2010

Fresno athletics facing crisis

http://www.fresnobee.com/2010/06/21/1979165_p2/bulldog-athletics-financing-in.html#ixzz0raGqZ2mD

UNTLifer · June 22, 2010

FYI our budget is Larger than yours by 3 mill and our stadium is about to seat 25k by 2012 with future expansion to take it over 35k. Also that 19 mill budget will increase every year until it reaches aprox 25million. As is now our avg Football attendance is 13k only 5k less than UNT and we play teams that get little to no love in Texas. If we go to the WAC UNT will be left behind. When we play in state FBS teams we bring several thousand with us. Not smack just some facts incase you didn't know. Having TXST as a conference mate would be good for UNT. Most people want to join CUSA because they have multiple Texas teams. Well if the WAC west with UNT, TXST and UTSA were to form it would make for good rivalries in state. jmo

The NCAA still has put a cap on expansion to D1 for now and UTSA has yet to even play a football game, plus your numbers are way off based on what is reported to the NCAA. I have nothing against Texas State San Marcos and wish you all the best, but you are putting the cart before the horse.

VideoEagle · June 22, 2010

You can't save your way to rich. Sometimes you have to spend money to make money.

You might go back and re-take finance. When the net present value of an option is NEGATIVE, it probably is not the best option if a positive option is available.

keith · June 22, 2010

NOT EXACTLY CORRECT

http://www.collegeinsider.com/mmpoll/

NOTE: The Mid-Major Poll is made up of teams from the following conferences: America East, Atlantic Sun, Big Sky, Big South, Big West, Colonial, Great West, Horizon, Independents, Ivy, Metro Atlantic, Mid-American, Mid-Eastern, Missouri Valley, Northeast, Ohio Valley, Patriot, Southern, Southland, Southwestern, Summit, Sun Belt, West Coast.

"Mid-major" is a bunch of crap. Allowing our University (or conference) to be included in anything "mid-major" tarnishes our brand. We should disavow anything "mid-major," publically refuse any awards or accolades and sue any organization that attempts to or continues to group us in any mid-major categorization/rankings/awards, etc. If we don't defend our brand, we have no one to blame but ourselves.

Keith

TheTastyGreek · June 22, 2010

You might go back and re-take finance. When the net present value of an option is NEGATIVE, it probably is not the best option if a positive option is available.

Are you suggesting that some AD's may be shorting football?

Are we going to have a shoulder pad default crisis? :ph34r:

Cerebus · June 22, 2010

Are we going to have a shoulder pad default crisis?

Wait until the Diet Coke derivative crash happens.

Also, if your aren't diversifying you portfolio with gold and black uniforms, you are a fool. Hard assets are the way to go.

TheTastyGreek · June 22, 2010

Wait until the Diet Coke derivative crash happens.

Also, if your aren't diversifying you portfolio with gold and black uniforms, you are a fool. Hard assets are the way to go.

A conservative strategy heavily based in traditional specie is the surest path to growth and wealth.

Buy and hold, or hand your assets over carefully to a trusted caretaker. I've found that the traditional wall safe or deposit box is nowhere near as appealing as storing my riches down the front of my trousers.

TXST_CAT · June 22, 2010

You might go back and re-take finance. When the net present value of an option is NEGATIVE, it probably is not the best option if a positive option is available.

the cost of marketing your brand is not a negative. It is an investment that one expects to increase revenue. Look at how much exposure UNT has recieved in just a short period of time because the WAC is considering another offer. Also consider the amount of exposure your program receives from the Belt. Are they realy helping to promote your "brand" on a national level. If you only think regional that's all you'll get if you want to break into the polls you need to get attention on a national level. WAC offers simmilar exposure to what CUSA offers. An Eastern WAC would keep cost low but increase both regional and national exposure. Spend a little to make alot. Spend nothing get nothing. Cost will always be there but what is your ROI.

Edited June 22, 2010 by TXST_CAT

VideoEagle · June 22, 2010

Are you suggesting that some AD's may be shorting football?

Are we going to have a shoulder pad default crisis?

People have been betting the value of the WAC will always go up, but now the Wac bubble seems to have burst. Should have been buying Wacy Default Swaps as a hedge.

TheTastyGreek · June 22, 2010

People have been betting the value of the WAC will always go up, but now the Wac bubble seems to have burst. Should have been buying Wacy Default Swaps as a hedge.

Football futures don't fall in any tranches lower than that of the WAC, sir.

Someone's been studying hard, I see. :ph34r:

TXST_CAT · June 22, 2010

Not to let facts get in the way, TSUSM athletic budget for 2009 was $13,422,0000: a big leap from previous years. NT was $17,184,000 or $3,742,000 more. Lots of luck with that WAC thing. TSUSM has two things going for it, it got approved a large student fee and some how got common use of the Texas State moniker. I do hope you have to play a FB division schedule before you leave NT in the dust.

Here is my source. Where did you get your numbers from? Not Being smart just curious because that looks of by a large margin.

THE POTENTIAL REPLACEMENTS

CAL POLY

San Luis Obispo, Calif.

Budget: $11.4 million

Sports: 20

Classification/Conference: FCS/Great West

TV Market: 120

Football record last 5 yrs: 35-22

Avg. football attendance (2009): 9,588

Avg. men's basketball attendance (2009-'10): 2,165

Pluses: California location.

Minuses: No timetable in place to move to FBS.

Hawaii fact: The late Stan Sheriff's alma mater.

MONTANA

Missoula, Mont.

Budget: $13 million

Sports: 14

Classification/Conference: FCS/Big Sky

TV Market: 166

Football record last 5 yrs: 59-10

Avg. football attendance (2009): 24,417

Avg. men's basketball attendance (2009-'10): 3,382

Pluses: Strong FCS playoff tradition in football. Led FCS in attendance.

Minuses: Yet to decide if it will pursue FBS membership. Might be tied to Montana State in 2-for-1 deal

Hawaii fact: UH is 4-1 against the Griz in football.

NORTH TEXAS

Denton, Texas

Budget: $16.7 million

Sports: 13

Classification/Conference: FBS/Sun Belt

TV Market: 5 (Dallas)

Football record last 5 yrs: 10-49

Avg. football attendance (2009): 18,228

Avg. men's basketball attendance (2009'10): 2,716

Pluses: Already FBS member. Texas location, major facilities upgrades, including new 30,000-seat stadium to open in 2011. Possible travel partner for Louisiana Tech.

Minuses: Turned WAC down six years ago. Preference is Conference USA. Football in down cycle.

PORTLAND STATE

Portland, Ore.

Budget: $10.5 million

Sports: 15

Classification/Conference: FCS/Big Sky

TV Market: 22

Football record last 5 yrs: 22-33

Avg. football atttendance (2009): 6,082

Avg. men's basketball attendance: 1,009

Pluses: Oregon location and major hub.

Minuses: No timetable to go FBS.

Hawaii Fact: June Jones transferred to PSU after leaving UH.

SACRAMENTO STATE

Sacramento, Calif.

Budget: $15.8 million

Sports: 20

Classificiation/Conference: FCS/Big Sky

TV Market: 20

Football record last 5 yrs: 20-36

Avg. football attendance (2009): 9,935

Avg. men's basketball attendance (2009-'10): 680

Pluses: California location and proximity to Nevada, San Jose State and Fresno State.

Minuses: No timetable for FBS membership. Facilities lacking.

Hawai'i fact: WAC associate member in baseball.

TEXAS STATE

San Marcos, Texas

Budget: $19 million

Sports: 16

Classification/Conference: FCS/Southland

TV Market: 48 (Austin)

Football record last 5 yrs: 36-24

Avg. football attenndance (2009): 12,488

Avg. men's basketball attendance (2009-'10): 1,654

Pluses: Texas location for recruiting. Possible travel partner for Louisiana Tech.

Minuses: No timetable for FBS membership.

UC DAVIS

Davis, Calif.

Budget: $20.5 million

Sports: 23

Classification/Conference: FCS/Great West

TV Market: 20 (Sacramento)

Football record last 5 yrs: 27-29

Avg. football attendance (2009): 9,908

Avg. men's basketball attendance (2009-'10): 1,748

Pluses: California location and proximity to WAC members Nevada, San Jose State and Fresno State. Best fit academically.

Minuses: No timetable for FBS.

Hawai'i fact: UH President M.R.C. Greenwood and Manoa Chancellor Virginia Hinshaw both held positions at UC Davis.

FBS: Football Bowl Subdivision (formerly known as Division I-A). FCS: Football Championship Subdivision (formerly known as Division I-AA). Sources: Individual schools and Star-Advertiser research.

http://www.staradvertiser.com/sports/sportsnews/20100620_Whos_got_Next.html

Edited June 22, 2010 by TXST_CAT

LongJim · June 22, 2010

Yes, the teams are far away. Yes, it will cost more to travel. Yes, most of our fans will not go to away games. Yes, half of the teams in the WAC are really bad. Yes, we will play half our games late at night. And I have desided I'm OK with that, because...

..., at the end of the season, the WAC champion has almost always finishes ranked in the polls. I have never seen a Sun Belt champion ranked. Ever. Not us, not Troy, not anybody.

So, I don't care how bad anything is in the WAC. The fact that the WAC offers an oportunity to be ranked, negates any other arguement for me. I didn't think we have that oportunity in the Sun Belt. It's time to go.

Todd Dodge to Texas Recruit's Mama: "Yes, the teams are far away. Yes, it will cost more to travel. Yes, most of our fans will not go to away games. Yes, half of the teams in the WAC are really bad. Yes, we will play half our games late at night. But at least the WAC gets teams ranked every now and then."

UNT will have difficulty recruiting kids from Texas if Mama can't watch them either in person or on TV. You have to have recruits in order to have an "opportunity to be ranked".

Going to the current version of the Whack isn't going to help this. It will hurt. See SEC also-ran Arkansas, who cut off their Texas recruiting nose to spite their SEC face.

Edited June 22, 2010 by LongJim

TXST_CAT · June 22, 2010

Todd Dodge to Texas Recruit's Mama: "Yes, the teams are far away. Yes, it will cost more to travel. Yes, most of our fans will not go to away games. Yes, half of the teams in the WAC are really bad. Yes, we will play half our games late at night. But at least the WAC gets teams ranked every now and then."

UNT will have difficulty recruiting kids from Texas if Mama can't watch them either in person or on TV. You have to have recruits in order to have an "opportunity to be ranked".

Going to the current version of the Whack isn't going to help this. It will hurt. See SEC also-ran Arkansas, who cut off their Texas recruiting nose to spite their SEC face.

that has to be the weakest argument ever. All I have to say to that is TCU. They went West alone not trying to recreate the SWC and it has paid off for them. Tell momma she can by a plane ticket or watch on ESPN.

VideoEagle · June 22, 2010

Football futures don't fall in any tranches lower than that of the WAC, sir.

Someone's been studying hard, I see.

But some here are giving those lower tranches a AAA rating instead of the junk status they deserve.

TheTastyGreek · June 22, 2010

But some here are giving those lower tranches a AAA rating instead of the junk status they deserve.

I could do this all day.

Between you and SUMG lately, I've been running out of +1's within my first 5 minutes on the board each day.

UNTLifer · June 22, 2010

that has to be the weakest argument ever. All I have to say to that is TCU. They went West alone not trying to recreate the SWC and it has paid off for them. Tell momma she can by a plane ticket or watch on ESPN.

True, and the MWC is also thought of as the next conference to break in to the BCS, and is the strongest non-BcS conference. The WAC, on the other hand, is on shaky footing, has seen its name teams stolen by other conferences and what is left is not that appealing to a team in the central time zone.

You may have a short memory, but the eastern WAC you propose is made up of current or recently departed teams from the Sun Belt except for La Tech. We, NT, would much rather play in a more regional conference or stay in a conference that has been good to us and has significantly lower travel costs as opposed to the WAC.

LongJim · June 22, 2010

that has to be the weakest argument ever. All I have to say to that is TCU. They went West alone not trying to recreate the SWC and it has paid off for them. Tell momma she can by a plane ticket or watch on ESPN.

Not trying to recreate the old SWC? No, but pretty close:

TCU Schedule:

04: SMU, Tech, Houston

05: 0U, SMU

06: Baylor, SMU, Tech

07: Texas, Houston, Baylor, SMU

08: 0U, SFA, SMU

09: Tx State, SMU

Here's where TCU is playing it's schedule for 2010. Arguably 10 games within a days drive:

Arlington

Fort Worth

Dallas