Some Quarterback Stuff

MeanGreen61 · April 7, 2010

Looking back and to the future, don't beleive that quarterback will be the big problem that some may think it is.

2007 - True freshman quarterback (Giovanni Vizza)

2009 - R/S freshman quarterback (Riley)

2010 - Senior backup (Tune) or 1 series as a freshman (Thompson)

Vizza

Rushing 133 times - gain 511 loss 212 - net 299

Passing 223 of 382 - 2388 yards, 20 ints, 17 TDs

Riley

Rushing 104 times - gain 564 loss 101 - net 463

Passing 205 of 303 - 1975 yards, 15 ints, 9 TDs

Passing effiency

Vizza - 113.27

Riley - 122.31

Tune - 126.88

Thompson - only 3 passes

Vizza/Riley/Tune passing comparison

Vizza 223 of 382 - 20 ints - 17 TDs - 58.3%

Riley 205 of 303 - 15 ints - 9 TDs - 67.7%

Tune 69 of 107 - 2 ints - 5 TDs - 64.5%

(Tune by 3X 207 of 321 - 6 ints - 15 TDs) Much better TD to int ratio.

IMHO - Tune or Thompson can move the offense without a dropoff. Don't Tune & Thompson throw a better long ball than Vizza or Riley? Our biggest problem is DEFENSE. Tune or Thompson will do fine at QB.

Edited April 7, 2010 by MeanGreen61

The Fake Lonnie Finch · April 7, 2010

I tend to agree. You've got to factor in how inexperienced the O-line was with Vizza as well. For as much pressure as that kid was under, he did a heck of a job. He also had nothing in the way for real, experienced receivers form the onset.

Then...there was the coaching on both sides of the ball back then. Awful. It would have been interesting to see Vizza as a senior working with Canales offense behind an experienced O-line and with veteran receivers.

I'm eager to watch Tune and Thompson, though. I think Vizza was a better scrambler than either of them. But, as you may have guessed from my post prior posts, I'm not completely enamored of scrambling quarterbacks. It's a useful tool to have in your belt, but you don't want it to be the main tool for the job. To me, scrambling is like the nail setter - useful when you need it, just sitting down in the pouch when you don't.

meangreenacct · April 7, 2010

I think it is a little unfair to make the point that if you multiplied the statistics by 3 for Tune, that they would be way better. If you look at the majority of situations that Tune was placed in, it was in games that were already out of hand, or in instances like Alabama where we were using a super conservative gameplan. Dodge and Vizza were both forced to try and make plays to win games, resulting in obviously more turn overs. Also I think Vizza was a freshman in 2007 and a Sophomore in 2008.

MeanGreen61 · April 7, 2010

I think it is a little unfair to make the point that if you multiplied the statistics by 3 for Tune, that they would be way better. If you look at the majority of situations that Tune was placed in, it was in games that were already out of hand, or in instances like Alabama where we were using a super conservative gameplan. Dodge and Vizza were both forced to try and make plays to win games, resulting in obviously more turn overs. Also I think Vizza was a freshman in 2007 and a Sophomore in 2008.

Correct, Vizza was a soph in 2008. The stats were for 2007 (corrected in post). Thanks.

Sophomore stats for Vizza

Rushing 95 times - 342 gain 226 loss 116 net

Passing 309 of 493 - 16 TDs - 15 ints. - Pass effeciency 113.22

MEANGREENMAN! · April 7, 2010

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe I read on ESPN Dallas that Thompson lost his redshirt when Todd Dodge, in his infinite wisdom, put him in the last game of the season after Rodge and Tune went down.

Got5onIt · April 7, 2010

I don't think the issue here will be a "dropoff" in QB play. The amount of improvement is where the issue lies. With Riley returning at QB, who knows what a full year of experience would've done and what could've happened this year? We'll never know.

MeanGreenTexan · April 7, 2010

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe I read on ESPN Dallas that Thompson lost his redshirt when Todd Dodge, in his infinite wisdom, put him in the last game of the season after Rodge and Tune went down.

What would you have done sir?

Riley = Out.

Tune = Out.

Baine = Out.

No one else had experience running QB in our system other than Thompson. We were 10 pts down in the game. We still had a chance to win. Play the person who gives you the best chance to win. If you don't do that, you don't deserve to be coaching at ANY level, FBS, High School, or otherwise.

MEANGREENMAN! · April 7, 2010

What would you have done sir?
Riley = Out.
Tune = Out.
Baine = Out.
No one else had experience running QB in our system other than Thompson. We were 10 pts down in the game. We still had a chance to win. Play the person who gives you the best chance to win. If you don't do that, you don't deserve to be coaching at ANY level, FBS, High School, or otherwise.

I didn't realize Bain was out. The intent of the post was to bring to light that Thompson is a Sophomore and not a Redshirt Freshman as stated earlier in the thread.

GrandGreen · April 7, 2010

What would you have done sir?
Riley = Out.
Tune = Out.
Baine = Out.
No one else had experience running QB in our system other than Thompson. We were 10 pts down in the game. We still had a chance to win. Play the person who gives you the best chance to win. If you don't do that, you don't deserve to be coaching at ANY level, FBS, High School, or otherwise.

We had tons of discussion on this topic. And your assertion that you don't deserve to be a coach if you don't waste a year of eligibility for a chance to win is absurd with the circumstances of that game. Outside of the odds that you could win being very low, a win would have made NT a 3-9 instead of 2-10. If Thompson turns out to be the QB, NT has been searching for, his loss of a year of play for one drive will go down as one of the worst coaching decisions in the history of NT football.

MeanGreenTexan · April 7, 2010

I didn't realize Bain was out. The intent of the post was to bring to light that Thompson is a Sophomore and not a Redshirt Freshman as stated earlier in the thread.

OK. Yeah, Baine had mono and didn't even travel with the team to that game. Thompson is definitely a Sophomore, and as much as that sucks, according to his interview with Vito, he values that 3+ min. of game time and I hope the other guys on the team do too. Camaraderie/Confidence will be critical for him in the early go if he does manage to start game 1.

MeanGreenTexan · April 7, 2010

We had tons of discussion on this topic. And your assertion that you don't deserve to be a coach if you don't waste a year of eligibility for a chance to win is absurd with the circumstances of that game. Outside of the odds that you could win being very low, a win would have made NT a 3-9 instead of 2-10. If Thompson turns out to be the QB, NT has been searching for, his loss of a year of play for one drive will go down as one of the worst coaching decisions in the history of NT football.

Please ask any player or coach on the team if that assertion is absurd! It doesn't matter what the record is/was if you can win a game, you do it!

Now if the score was 40-3 or something, then yes, you probably don't do it...

Edited April 7, 2010 by MeanGreenTexan

MeanGreenHoops · April 7, 2010

Looking back and to the future, don't beleive that quarterback will be the big problem that some may think it is.

2007 - True freshman quarterback (Giovanni Vizza)
2009 - R/S freshman quarterback (Riley)
2010 - Senior backup (Tune) or 1 series as a freshman (Thompson)

Vizza
Rushing 133 times - gain 511 loss 212 - net 299
Passing 223 of 382 - 2388 yards, 20 ints, 17 TDs

Riley
Rushing 104 times - gain 564 loss 101 - net 463
Passing 205 of 303 - 1975 yards, 15 ints, 9 TDs

Passing effiency

Vizza - 113.27
Riley - 122.31
Tune - 126.88
Thompson - only 3 passes

Vizza/Riley/Tune passing comparison
Vizza 223 of 382 - 20 ints - 17 TDs - 58.3%
Riley 205 of 303 - 15 ints - 9 TDs - 67.7%
Tune 69 of 107 - 2 ints - 5 TDs - 64.5%
(Tune by 3X 207 of 321 - 6 ints - 15 TDs) Much better TD to int ratio.

IMHO - Tune or Thompson can move the offense without a dropoff. Don't Tune & Thompson throw a better long ball than Vizza or Riley? Our biggest problem is DEFENSE. Tune or Thompson will do fine at QB.

You hit the nail on the head. The concern is on defense. We don't have even one playmaker on that side of the ball yet. And by playmaker I mean someone that will make a key stop, force a fumble, pick off a pass when we need it. You know the kinds of things we used to see in the early part of this decade.

Edited April 7, 2010 by MeanGreenHoops

e-bone ver2.awesome · April 7, 2010

I tend to agree. You've got to factor in how inexperienced the O-line was with Vizza as well. For as much pressure as that kid was under, he did a heck of a job. He also had nothing in the way for real, experienced receivers form the onset.

Huh? He had Casey Fitzgerald. You could even put Stickler in there. We had a whole new group of receivers last season.

e-bone ver2.awesome · April 7, 2010

You hit the nail on the head. The concern is on defense. We don't have even one playmaker on that side of the ball yet. And by playmaker I mean someone that will make a key stop, force a fumble, pick off a pass when we need it. You know the kinds of things we used to see in the early part of this decade.

You are right, but you had better be careful calling out the defense. We can blast Dodge and the offense all day long, but people will defend Deloach's worst in the country defense to the death.

GrandGreen · April 7, 2010

Please ask any player or coach on the team if that assertion is absurd! It doesn't matter what the record is/was if you can win a game, you do it!

Now if the score was 40-3 or something, then yes, you probably don't do it...

Go ahead take your survey, you may be surprised at the results. You may also want to quiz other head coaches, if they would give up a year of eligibility of a promising athlete's career for a less than 5% chance of winning the last game of the season with a 2-9 record with approximately 3 minutes left in the game. The objective of coaching is obviously to win but sometimes you have to take a longer term approach, that decision could cost you several much more important future wins. Why redshirt anyone if you subscribe to a win now at all cost philosophy? I think Dodge panicked and made a poor decision. Some agree, some don't; but it is far from the automatic decision you seem to think it was.

H-towngreen · April 7, 2010

Yes, we should have thrown in the towel at that point. A 10 point defecit is way to deep a hole to come out of. We should have put in Hamilton or Carey and just ran draws with Dunbar. A win is a win. You play to win the game! And you do what is in the best possible interest of the team to win that particular game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRxm0oGbnRI

GrandGreen · April 7, 2010

Yes, we should have thrown in the towel at that point. A 10 point defecit is way to deep a hole to come out of. We should have put in Hamilton or Carey and just ran draws with Dunbar. A win is a win. You play to win the game! And you do what is in the best possible interest of the team to win that particular game.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=WRxm0oGbnRI

IMO, it was a bad decision even if a miracle had happened and NT won the game. Do you really think that a season ending win that would get NT to two conference wins is worth losing a good QB for a year? If that QB had been Maher, Scott Hall, Scott Davis or Steve Ramsy do you believe that one win would offset the loss of those QB's for a year. The reality was with a never used QB that NT's odds runing the wildcat were close to as good as Thompson's great series for a td.

untcampbell · April 7, 2010

Clearly, I would love to have DT's fourth year back. However, that little 60-yard drive sure provides more hope as we head into the Spring game with a single QB with experience as a starter.

Further, I would be THRILLED to get three strong years out of a QB, I don't care who it is. That would beat the average tenure of NT starting QB's, or any other school's for that matter.

I am excited about this competition, and will be pulling for the guy that starts. Tune is so used to be counted out of the competition that I expect him to play pretty well this Sunday, and heading into the Fall.

GMG

THOR · April 8, 2010

not everyone wants to be or is redshirted. it's a moot point anyway, yet we keep beating it into the ground.

NT80 · April 8, 2010

not everyone wants to be or is redshirted. it's a moot point anyway, yet we keep beating it into the ground.

Can you redshirt any year, or just the first? He lost a year of eligibility, but isn't he still able to have a (non-medical) redshirt year?

Back to the thread topic; I thought Thompson was the best QB in the scrimmage Tuesday. He plays very mature and has a great arm. The offense took it to the defense, and the defense has seen the plays the past two weeks. I also saw more variety of play calling in two hours than all of last season.

TheTastyGreek · April 8, 2010

Can you redshirt any year, or just the first? He lost a year of eligibility, but isn't he still able to have a (non-medical) redshirt year?

It's not that he can't redshirt in a future year... You've got that part of it correct. If Dodge and Canales decide to redshirt him this season, he'll still have 3 more years to play 3 seasons.

The issue that caused all the controversy is that by using him for just 4 plays, that 4 play drive was all we get from one of his maximum four years of eligibility.

So while he can redshirt this year, he'll still only have 3 years of eligibility years left. One fourth of his college career will be the one drive at the end of an all-but-over game that concluded a 10 loss season.

When we decided not to redshirt Vizza, the guy started 8 games out of his freshman season and saw mop-up duty in 2 others. When we decided not to redshirt Riley, he would have potentially played 11 out of 12 games that season. Once he suffered his season ending injury (wink!) in week 4, he wound up qualifying for a medical redshirt anyway.

But Thompson didn't start 8 games or have a chance to play in 11. He got 4 plays. One quarter of all he'll ever have the chance to do as a college player totaled one minute and seventeen seconds.

Agree with the decision to play him or not, I don't think anyone disagrees that the lost year of eligibility is very unfortunate.

MEANGREENMAN! · April 8, 2010

I really think everyone is blowing this whole QB situation out of whack. Compared to other positions on this team QB is one of our deepest. I don't think anyone is disillusioned about the ability of the defense (or lack of it) and going in with the mentality that you need to pass to win may not be the best for the team. I know I have said it again and again, but we have the Sun Belt's version of Chris Johnson on our roster and he needs to be the number 1 focus of the offense. Running the ball with Copspeed is essentially just like the passing game Dodge has implemented over the past 3 years, consistent short gains that have the potential to break a long play, except less of a chance at a backbreaking turnover. Whether it is Tune or Thompson who ends up taking snaps this season the team will be most effective establishing Lance as a running threat and then use play action when LD isn't breaking 60 yard runs. No need to split into Team Tune and Team Thompson, let's worry a little bit more about Ira Smith getting burned deep.

GrandGreen · April 8, 2010

I really think everyone is blowing this whole QB situation out of whack. Compared to other positions on this team QB is one of our deepest. I don't think anyone is disillusioned about the ability of the defense (or lack of it) and going in with the mentality that you need to pass to win may not be the best for the team. I know I have said it again and again, but we have the Sun Belt's version of Chris Johnson on our roster and he needs to be the number 1 focus of the offense. Running the ball with Copspeed is essentially just like the passing game Dodge has implemented over the past 3 years, consistent short gains that have the potential to break a long play, except less of a chance at a backbreaking turnover. Whether it is Tune or Thompson who ends up taking snaps this season the team will be most effective establishing Lance as a running threat and then use play action when LD isn't breaking 60 yard runs. No need to split into Team Tune and Team Thompson, let's worry a little bit more about Ira Smith getting burned deep.

I guess I want to confrontational today. There is no way in heck that our QB situation is deep. NT has a journeyman senior in Tune who has started two games and a sophomore who has played about a minute. Their backup is a 170 lb true freshman and several non-scholarship players. No matter what your thoughts on Riley's ability was, his being out of the QB position has made the depth at QB go from adequate to very questionable. An injury to Tune or Thompson or both would be a disaster.

I would caution people not to rely on spring performances being very useful in projecting a team or unit's success. I also wouldn't discount Riley's ability running the option for a significant part of Dunbar's success last year. His speed at QB will be missed as will his ability to read defenses. The new QB will likely have better passing range, but NT lost a great weapon in Dodge's running ability.

Got5onIt · April 8, 2010

I really think everyone is blowing this whole QB situation out of whack. Compared to other positions on this team QB is one of our deepest. I don't think anyone is disillusioned about the ability of the defense (or lack of it) and going in with the mentality that you need to pass to win may not be the best for the team. I know I have said it again and again, but we have the Sun Belt's version of Chris Johnson on our roster and he needs to be the number 1 focus of the offense. Running the ball with Copspeed is essentially just like the passing game Dodge has implemented over the past 3 years, consistent short gains that have the potential to break a long play, except less of a chance at a backbreaking turnover. Whether it is Tune or Thompson who ends up taking snaps this season the team will be most effective establishing Lance as a running threat and then use play action when LD isn't breaking 60 yard runs. No need to split into Team Tune and Team Thompson, let's worry a little bit more about Ira Smith getting burned deep.

I'm going to have to agree with GrandGreen regarding the QB situation. This position is far from being the deepest. Too much inexperience now that Riley is gone. We're basically back to square one with a relatively unknown starting at QB. Now I will say I somewhat agree with you in that the potential is definitely there. This being such a pivotal season for Teflon Todd really makes it a big deal, IMO.

MeanGreenTexan · April 8, 2010

Agree with the decision to play him or not, I don't think anyone disagrees that the lost year of eligibility is very unfortunate.

I don't disagree with that.

And I don't think it's fair to point to that final drive and say, "Hey, we're going to get a full season of 100% completions and a TD every 3 passes!", but I do think that drive showed us, the team, and most importantly him, that he can succeed here. It's not like he came in and handed the ball off every play. That would have been a complete waste.

I seriously doubt that we would be singing this guys praises like we are if he did not play in that game last year. We would be saying, "Oh, this guy Thompson is having a nice spring, but he's still unproven. Tune should definitely start!" The fact that this thread is even here is partially a testament to the decision to burn his redshirt last year.

Unfortunate: Yes.

Right thing to do: Yes.