Sunbelt Post Season Format With Tie Breaking Rules

[FireFightnJoey]

I still can not believe that the Sunbelt has decided to do this three way tie breaker. So, I did my own investigative reporting to see exactly what the rules were and how they deduced comparing the western division champion with the runner up for the regular season title. Why have two divisions? All of these questions have been exhausted on this board. Questions like, we didn't even play the same number of games against each other and the other teams had home court advantage. So, here is the actual text from the Sunbelt official website.

Sunbelt Post Season Format and Tie Breaking Procedure

Seeding. Seeds for the Men’s and Women’s Basketball Championships shall be determined based on each team’s overall regular-season conference finish (i.e. teams will be seeded 1-13). In the event of a tie for any seeded position within a division, the seed shall be determined by utilizing the conference’s tie-breaking formula.

· Top Three Seeds -Determination. The winner of each division will be the #1 and #2 seeds. The # 3 will be the team with the next best win/loss record regardless of division.

· Tiebreaking. If the division winners have identical win/loss records, head-to-head record will determine the #1 and #2 teams. If head-to-head record is equal, the seeded position will be determined by a toss of the coin by the Sun Belt Commissioner or his designee.

Tie-Breaking Formula. The Sun Belt Conference tie-breaking formula is as follows: (a) if one team has defeated the other team twice, that team shall be awarded the higher-seeded position; however, ( if each team has won only one game against the other, the higher position will be awarded to the team that has the best won-loss percentage against the highest-seeded team in the conference; © if each team has the same record against the highest-seeded team in the division, then won-loss records against the next highest-seeded team in the conference would be considered and so on down the line until the tie is broken; (d) if the records of the two teams are the same against all teams in the conference, then the seeded position would be determined by a toss of the coin by the Sun Belt Conference Commissioner; (e) in the event of a three-way tie, the won-loss percentage of the tied teams against each other is first considered; (f) If the teams are still tied, records against the next highest seeded team in the conference are considered and so forth until the tie is broken; once the three-way tie is broken, then the two-way tie is broken in the normal two-tie fashion;(g) if there is still a tie, the seeded position of the teams will be determined by a random draw conducted by the Sun Belt Conference Commissioner; (h) for multiple ties larger than a three-way tie, the same procedure will be applied as used to break a three-way tie; (i) for all multiple ties, the tie is broken by first deciding the highest seeded team involved in the tie before deciding other seeded positions.

The seeding for top two seeds has its own tiebreaking for #1 and #2. A tiebreaker that only involves the division winners AND a coin toss if their records are identical and head/head matchup is identical. The "Top Three Seeds -Determination" clause specifically points out that the #3 spot is "next best ... regardless of division", which implies the division champions must be determined before determining number 3 seed.

The Tie-Breaking Formula comes into play for all of the seeds below these two seeds. Specifically, point © of the Tie-Breaking Formula section states that "if each team has the same record against the highest-seeded team in the division" ... Not the other division. THE top seed has to be established before you ever get to the infamous "three way tie" clause which is point (e) of the Tie-Breaking Formula.

But here is the real kicker. There is a statement that clearly states when the "Tie-Breaking Formula" is invoked. The last sentence of the "Seeding" clause:

In the event of a tie for any seeded position within a division, the seed shall be determined by utilizing the conference’s tie-breaking formula.

It is only to be invoked for seeded positions WITHIN a division.

So, the conference skipped and ignored its own rules to find a rule that that is embedded far into the tie breaking formula that shouldn't even be invoked. The rules clearly state to determine division winners and to determine head to head of those two to determine #1 and #2 seeds.

After reading and analyzing these rules, I just don't see how they came up with the seeds using this three way tiebreaker bull. I thought maybe the rules were ambiguous, but it is very clearly defined.

Why does this matter so much to me? This is a guaranteed post season berth to the NIT. And that means everything. That is visibility. That is more money. And above all else, our players deserve it. This was determined before the season. The conference chose to go another direction which tells me one of two things.

1. They were too frantic in making a decision because they didn't think it would actually happen, and resulted in not analyzing the rules properly because they rushed it after the last games played out.

2. They are incompetent.

Either way, I think it all boils down to number 2 (pun intended), even if number 1 is the root cause.

If we win out and go to the NCAA, then in my opinion the conference dodged a bullet. If not, I‎ will be highly disappointed if UNT does not come out publicly with their lawyers and go after the conference. Quit pus-footing around these issues and be behind closed doors. Let us know you think it is bull and you are going to do something about it. Don't give me this crap that Rick V. is probably on top of this and trying to be "political" or some crap. This is not the time for this. The players and Coach Jones deserve it. Your alumni and donors want it.

Edited March 1, 2010 by FireFightnJoey

[TheTastyGreek]

Aaaaand... Now I'm pissed off about this again.

This isn't a general "Division Sports" tiebreaker. It's the specific rules that determine seeding for MEN'S AND WOMEN'S BASKETBALL.

And they didn't follow it.

[bstnsportsfan3]

this needs to be emailed to every staff member in the sunbelt....including commish waters...this is making me so incredibly mad....i hope troy appreciates the gift the sun belt gave them...

[meangreanmick]

Who do we email?

[UNT90]

Why do things always seems so hard for UNT?

Did we get out politicked here? Did anyone in our AD bother to read the tie breaking rules and confront the conference on the descrepencies?

Yes, this is a HUGE deal, because we lost a guaranteed post season birth when, apparently by conference rules, we were the deserved champion. The AD should address this with legal action before the tournament if what Joey posted is correct. The threat of legal action may cause the Sun Belt to go by their own rules.

Edit: See, FFR, the need for an attorney came quicker than you expected

Edited March 2, 2010 by UNT90

[CMJ]

Anyone in the AD been told why the SBC didn't follow the rules?

[UNTflyer]

Never saw this before now, so how... HOW did this slip by the conference officials?

[UNTflyer]

Go here: http://www.sunbeltsports.org/CreateTicket.dbml?ATCLID=1392769&SPID=1825&DB_OEM_ID=4100&SPSID=22326

Send a "ticket" to the Sun Belt conference. Copy and paste the tiebreaker rules listed on THEIR OWN WEBSITE and ask why North Texas isn't the #1 seed.

[CMJ]

After contacting someone who I consider to be very knowledgable, he said thet these were the rules he was aware of too(explains his confusion as well). The 3 way tie breaker sucked....because this is how we assumed the league should break division first. But now right there in B&W that's what it flippin' says.

I basically copied and pasted Joey's post and sent it to them

Edited March 2, 2010 by CMJ

[keith]

Never saw this before now, so how... HOW did this slip by the conference officials?

It didn't slip by. Troy is the new sexy.

In my best Mr. Crabs' voice, "Evvverrryboody knows that."

Keith

[untgeorge]

I still can not believe that the Sunbelt has decided to do this three way tie breaker. So, I did my own investigative reporting to see exactly what the rules were and how they deduced comparing the western division champion with the runner up for the regular season title. Why have two divisions? All of these questions have been exhausted on this board. Questions like, we didn't even play the same number of games against each other and the other teams had home court advantage. So, here is the actual text from the Sunbelt official website.

Sunbelt Post Season Format and Tie Breaking Procedure

(e) in the event of a three-way tie, the won-loss percentage of the tied teams against each other is first considered (f) If the teams are still tied, records against the next highest seeded team in the conference are considered and so forth until the tie is broken; once the three-way tie is broken, then the two-way tie is broken in the normal two-tie fashion;(g) if there is still a tie, the seeded position of the teams will be determined by a random draw conducted by the Sun Belt Conference Commissioner; (h) for multiple ties larger than a three-way tie, the same procedure will be applied as used to break a three-way tie; (i) for all multiple ties, the tie is broken by first deciding the highest seeded team involved in the tie before deciding other seeded positions.

The seeding for top two seeds has its own tiebreaking for #1 and #2. A tiebreaker that only involves the division winners AND a coin toss if their records are identical and head/head matchup is identical. The "Top Three Seeds -Determination" clause specifically points out that the #3 spot is "next best ... regardless of division", which implies the division champions must be determined before determining number 3 seed.

The Tie-Breaking Formula comes into play for all of the seeds below these two seeds. Specifically, point © of the Tie-Breaking Formula section states that "if each team has the same record against the highest-seeded team in the division" ... Not the other division. THE top seed has to be established before you ever get to the infamous "three way tie" clause which is point (e) of the Tie-Breaking Formula.

But here is the real kicker. There is a statement that clearly states when the "Tie-Breaking Formula" is invoked. The last sentence of the "Seeding" clause:

In the event of a tie for any seeded position within a division, the seed shall be determined by utilizing the conference’s tie-breaking formula.

It is only to be invoked for seeded positions WITHIN a division.

So, the conference skipped and ignored its own rules to find a rule that that is embedded far into the tie breaking formula that shouldn't even be invoked. The rules clearly state to determine division winners and to determine head to head of those two to determine #1 and #2 seeds.

After reading and analyzing these rules, I just don't see how they came up with the seeds using this three way tiebreaker bull. I thought maybe the rules were ambiguous, but it is very clearly defined.

Why does this matter so much to me? This is a guaranteed post season berth to the NIT. And that means everything. That is visibility. That is more money. And above all else, our players deserve it. This was determined before the season. The conference chose to go another direction which tells me one of two things.

1. They were too frantic in making a decision because they didn't think it would actually happen, and resulted in not analyzing the rules properly because they rushed it after the last games played out.

2. They are incompetent.

Either way, I think it all boils down to number 2 (pun intended), even if number 1 is the root cause.

If we win out and go to the NCAA, then in my opinion the conference dodged a bullet. If not, I‎ will be highly disappointed if UNT does not come out publicly with their lawyers and go after the conference. Quit pus-footing around these issues and be behind closed doors. Let us know you think it is bull and you are going to do something about it. Don't give me this crap that Rick V. is probably on top of this and trying to be "political" or some crap. This is not the time for this. The players and Coach Jones deserve it. Your alumni and donors want it.

[untgeorge]

I left something out.

(e) in the event of a three-way tie, the won-loss percentage of the tied teams against each other is first considered;

That clause is what the conf appears to be relying on.

[UNTflyer]

I left something out.

(e) in the event of a three-way tie, the won-loss percentage of the tied teams against each other is first considered;

That clause is what the conf appears to be relying on.

But... clearly that applies only to seed 3-13, since there is a very specific tiebreaker rule for the #1 and #2 seeds, which SPECIFICALLY states that in the event of a tie between the two division leaders that head-to-head records will determine who is number 1.

[Buford_Julep]

Not sure if it makes any difference or not, but we are not talking about tie-breakers for regular season Sun Belt champions. There is no such title. The winner of the Conference Tournament is the Sun Belt Champion.

[CMJ]

Not according to the official site.

http://www.sunbeltsports.org/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4100&ATCLID=919677

[UNTflyer]

Not true.

Not sure if it makes any difference or not, but we are not talking about tie-breakers for regular season Sun Belt champions. There is no such title. The winner of the Conference Tournament is the Sun Belt Champion.

[FirefightnRick]

.............

Great job to FFJ for finding the information.

I spoke to THE source today. As it turns out, the AD's and commissioner sat down prior to the season and decided that due to the odd amount of teams playing each other, and the fact thatsomeone

was going to play more teams than others, that they would go with the overall best

record in head to head play. My oppinion is I don't believe they thought it would play out as it did because the conference forgot to tell the rest of the outside world about this decision or update it on their website.

Our AD dept was on the phone with the conference all this morning getting it straighteend out. I assure you no one is happy about the outcome and I was assured today that that message

was sent loud and clear to the conference that for the next season(even though we don't have

to worry about playing another set of odd opponents in conferenc) they will get it corrected and in writing so there won't be any confusion in the future.

Rick

[Keith7]

Ok lets pretend they did give UNT the No. 1 seed. MTSU beat us TWICE in the regular season so wouldn't they have the same complaint? How do you guys counter that?

[TheTastyGreek]

Ok lets pretend they did give UNT the No. 1 seed. MTSU beat us TWICE in the regular season so wouldn't they have the same complaint? How do you guys counter that?

Again...

There's an East Champion. If that's Troy, we get the 1 seed. If that's MTSU, we don't, and there's no room to complain about it. If they could win their division (and they had two chances against Troy, but couldn't beat them), then they'd own the overall and there wouldn't be any argument about who deserved it, even if we had the same record.

And MTSU didn't beat us twice this season, man. We only played them once. I think it's been something like 5 or 6 years since MTSU beat us twice in the same year.

Are you even paying attention to the stuff you're writing anymore?

[TheTastyGreek]

And MTSU didn't beat us twice this season, man. We only played them once. I think it's been something like 5 or 6 years since MTSU beat us twice in the same year.

Correction... Under Johnny Jones, we've never lost to Middle twice in the same year. Ever.

But WE'VE beaten THEM twice in a year three times.

Edited March 3, 2010 by TheTastyGreek

[untgeorge]

But... clearly that applies only to seed 3-13, since there is a very specific tiebreaker rule for the #1 and #2 seeds, which SPECIFICALLY states that in the event of a tie between the two division leaders that head-to-head records will determine who is number 1.

It clearly applies to all three way ties.

Dumb rule, but it is the rule.

[UNTflyer]

It clearly applies to all three way ties.

Dumb rule, but it is the rule.

No, the rule is quite clear:

If the division winners have identical win/loss records, head-to-head record will determine the #1 and #2 teams.

It's an A or B question, and MTSU can "C" its way out of it.

[untgeorge]

No, the rule is quite clear:

If the division winners have identical win/loss records, head-to-head record will determine the #1 and #2 teams.

It's an A or B question, and MTSU can "C" its way out of it.

The three division champions (yes, MTSU and Troy are co-champions)have identical w/l records and the head-to-head records determine that Troy is 1st seed.

The rule does neither says nor implies that the first step is to proclaim one of the two east co-champs a division champ. This is a seeding issue not a championship determining issue. The history of the Sun Belt shows clearly that in the past the teams that tied are considered champions no matter how they are seeded. See the link provided by CMJ; there three teams were considered co-champs in 2007 and 2008. The tie breaking formula was used only for seeding and NOT for determining a champion, division or otherwise.

Look I would have written the rule differently, as well. But it is what it is.

I am bored with this "issue". The Sun Belt is not out to get us and has applied the rule the way it was written. Can't we move on?

[UNTflyer]

Actuall y it does imply just that. "If the division winners..."

[untgeorge]

Actuall y it does imply just that. "If the division winners..."

shoot they don't even list the division champions in their historical list that CMJ linked to. That is of no significance to them except for seeding.

Aren't you bored yet?