Almost To 20 Div I Wins?

[stebo]

Great game! A little worried at the half but this team showed the same consistent character that they have since mid January... when they really hit their stride... Bouncing back from the Arkie and Middle Tenn State losses really showed me that this is a resilient squad.

Now I don't want to cause a ruckus... I really would simply like your opinions. I had a discussion with another NT grad today about tonight's game and I wanted to see how you all feel about his mindset.

Do you consider this an 18 win team or a 20 win team? In my opinion (and only mine) - the two wins over Cameron and Southern count because the team played them and won them. According to my friend - they do not count (in the official NCAA records). Is that true? Like, are they not in the scorebooks? That was his argument - the games do not count for us but can count against us. I have no idea. Essentially that would make them lose-lose situations for everything but confidence and "feel good" press releases. Now - I do know that before the NCAA rules changed, those two games would have been called something like "exhibition" games or scrimmages or something. So did we used to count the scores of those exhibition games/scrimmage towards a milestone like a 20 win season marker? I honestly have no idea - does anyone know? Because he convinced me with the whole "exhibition" game argument - that they have never counted in the past and do not count now. I just don't know if he was right.

I want to emphasize that both Rob's and my opinion is that the team is not done and has plenty of opportunity left to win 20 Div I games with the last game against ULM and the tourney ahead. I don't think that Rob was trying to take anything away from this team - he is a HUGE Mean Green basketball fan (much more into them than me) and he kept going on and on that they are playing AMAZING basketball. His asterisk was that they have a legitimate chance of hitting 20 wins in the 2nd round of the Belt tourney (granted they get a first round bye) but they are not quite there just yet. Thoughts? Is he right about how the NCAA keeps records? Would appreciate any feedback, thanks.

Edited February 26, 2010 by stebo

[CMJ]

The NCAA counts them. As far as I know they've always counted them. If you want to verify this one need only to check the NCAA sits when they update their "win" numbers at the end of every season.

Edited February 26, 2010 by CMJ

[GrandGreen]

Sure they count as wins and in all the NCAA statistics. Wins against sub-division teams are not factors in the rpi ratings but count in everything else unless they are designated an exhibition game by NT.

[stebo]

The NCAA counts them. As far as I know they've always counted them.

I think that you are the one that told me that Court... but he pointed to Sagarin Rankings. So I looked it up, going into tonight's game - this is what they had for us:

165 North Texas = 71.95 17 8 67.43( 284) 0 0 | 0 2 | 72.60 156 | 70.96 179

So basically 17 wins and 8 losses. With tonight's win we get to 18. Does Sag use only Div I games because that is what is in the record books. The example that he kept going over was Trilli. Like - if we played Texas All Stars and SE Okl State during the Trilli years, we would always (at least) win those... but when you look up Trilli's records, those wins do not count. The argument is that the NCAA did away with exhibition games but did not change the way that they record win/loss records. Is it possible that the NCAA doesn't recognize NAIA schools because they are not NCAA participants and play by a completely different set of rules? Man, I think that you and I had this same conversation during a chat one night... lol. And you had me convinced but now I am not so sure.

[MeanGreen61]

I think that you are the one that told me that Court... but he pointed to Sagarin Rankings. So I looked it up, going into tonight's game - this is what they had for us:

165 North Texas = 71.95 17 8 67.43( 284) 0 0 | 0 2 | 72.60 156 | 70.96 179

So basically 17 wins and 8 losses. With tonight's win we get to 18. Does Sag use only Div I games because that is what is in the record books. The example that he kept going over was Trilli. Like - if we played Texas All Stars and SE Okl State during the Trilli years, we would always (at least) win those... but when you look up Trilli's records, those wins do not count. The argument is that the NCAA did away with exhibition games but did not change the way that they record win/loss records. Is it possible that the NCAA doesn't recognize NAIA schools because they are not NCAA participants and play by a completely different set of rules? Man, I think that you and I had this same conversation during a chat one night... lol. And you had me convinced but now I am not so sure.

Pomeroy sez tonight makes 20 wins.

http://www.kenpom.com/team.php?team=North Texas

[UNTflyer]

Sagarin does not count anything played outside Div I because he is mathematically ranking Div I schools against each other.

The NCAA counts all games unless they are exhibition games.

[untgeorge]

The NCAA selection committee for the national championship tournament does not consider games against non-D1 teams. It is like they were not played.

For purposes of determining a team's RPI games against non-D1 teams are not counted.

Other NCAA stats and records include the results of such games.

Sagarin does not include games against non-D1 teams but frankly as to college basketball Sagarin is irrelevant.

[CMJ]

The RPI and Sagarin don't count non D1 wins, but the NCAA does.

NT's and the NCAA records differed by a few games(the NCAA actually had us down for MORE wins), so Stephen Howard and I traded some emails just before the season and got everything squared away. If we had been counting wins wrongly the NCAA would have us down for a whole lot less victories.

2008-09 Johnny Jones 20-12 .625

2007-08 Johnny Jones 20-11 .645

2006-07 Johnny Jones 23-11 .676

2005-06 Johnny Jones 14-14 .500

2004-05 Johnny Jones 14-14 .500

2003-04 Johnny Jones 13-15 .464

2002-03 Johnny Jones 7-21 .250

2001-02 Johnny Jones 15-14 .517

2000-01 Vic Trilli 4-24 .143

1999-00 Vic Trilli 7-20 .259

1998-99 Vic Trilli 4-22 .154

1997-98 Vic Trilli 5-21 .192

1996-97 Tim Jankovich 10-16 .385

1995-96 Tim Jankovich 15-13 .536

1994-95 Tim Jankovich 14-13 .519

1993-94 Tim Jankovich 14-15 .483

1992-93 Jimmy Gales 5-21 .192

1991-92 Jimmy Gales 15-14 .517

1990-91 Jimmy Gales 17-13 .567

1989-90 Jimmy Gales 5-25 .167

1988-89 Jimmy Gales 14-15 .483

1987-88 Jimmy Gales 17-13 .567

1986-87 Jimmy Gales 11-17 .393

1985-86 Tommy Newman 10-18 .357

1984-85 Tommy Newman 5-23 .179

1983-84 Tommy Newman 9-19 .321

1982-83 Bill Blakeley 15-15 .500

1981-82 Bill Blakeley 15-12 .556

1980-81 Bill Blakeley 15-12 .556

1979-80 Bill Blakeley 13-14 .481

1978-79 Bill Blakeley 11-16 .407

1977-78 Bill Blakeley 22-6 .786

1976-77 Bill Blakeley 21-6 .778

1975-76 Bill Blakeley 22-4 .846

1974-75 Gene Robbins 6-20 .231

1973-74 Gene Robbins 13-13 .500

1972-73 Gene Robbins 9-16 .360

1971-72 Gene Robbins 8-18 .308

1970-71 Harry Miller 10-15 .400

1969-70 Dan Spika 18-8 .692

1968-69 Dan Spika 15-10 .600

1967-68 Dan Spika 8-18 .308

1966-67 Dan Spika 12-13 .480

1965-66 Dan Spika 5-20 .200

1964-65 Charles Johnson 7-19 .269

1963-64 Charles Johnson 7-17 .292

1962-63 Charles Johnson 10-14 .417

1961-62 Charles Johnson 3-23 .115

1960-61 Charles Johnson 2-22 .083

1959-60 Charles Johnson 7-19 .269

1958-59 Henry G. "Pete" Shands 6-18 .250

1957-58 Henry G. "Pete" Shands 3-18 .143

1956-57 Henry G. "Pete" Shands 3-20 .130

1955-56 Henry G. "Pete" Shands 9-13 .409

1954-55 Henry G. "Pete" Shands 8-16 .333

1953-54 Henry G. "Pete" Shands 19-9 .679

1952-53 Henry G. "Pete" Shands 18-4 .818

1951-52 Henry G. "Pete" Shands 15-8 .652

1950-51 Henry G. "Pete" Shands 12-12 .500

1949-50 Henry G. "Pete" Shands 10-15 .400

1948-49 Henry G. "Pete" Shands 10-11 .476

1947-48 Henry G. "Pete" Shands 15-10 .600

1946-47 Henry G. "Pete" Shands 13-10 .565

1945-46 Henry G. "Pete" Shands 6-10 .375

1942-43 Henry G. "Pete" Shands 11-14 .440

1941-42 Henry G. "Pete" Shands 11-6 .647

1940-41 Henry G. "Pete" Shands 5-14 .263

1939-40 Henry G. "Pete" Shands 8-15-1 .375

1938-39 Henry G. "Pete" Shands 13-10 .565

1937-38 Henry G. "Pete" Shands 14-7 .667

1936-37 Henry G. "Pete" Shands 8-7 .533

1935-36 Henry G. "Pete" Shands 6-10 .375

1934-35 Jack Sisco 8-14 .364

1933-34 Jack Sisco 7-13 .350

1932-33 Terence Myracle 7-8 .467

1931-32 Terence Myracle 9-11 .450

1930-31 Terence Myracle 12-12 .500

1929-30 Terence Myracle 10-5 .667

1928-29 John B. Reid 18-6 .750

1927-28 John B. Reid 14-8 .636

1926-27 John B. Reid 16-7 .696

1925-26 John B. Reid 20-5 .800

1924-25 John B. Reid 11-5 .688

1923-24 James W. St. Clair 9-5 .643

1922-23 James W. St. Clair 13-1 .929

1921-22 James W. St. Clair 11-1 .917

1920-21 Theron J. Fouts 5-3 .625

1919-20 James W. St. Clair 5-2 .714

1918-19 James W. St. Clair 7-4 .636

1917-18 James W. St. Clair 9-2 .818

1916-17 James W. St. Clair 4-6 .400

[stebo]

The NCAA selection committee for the national championship tournament does not consider games against non-D1 teams. It is like they were not played.

For purposes of determining a team's RPI games against non-D1 teams are not counted.

Other NCAA stats and records include the results of such games.

Sagarin does not include games against non-D1 teams but frankly as to college basketball Sagarin is irrelevant.

Ok so the NCAA selection committee does not consider our team to be a 20 win team, is that what you are saying George? When it comes to picking the field of 65 - they look at our record as 18 wins right now. Am I getting that right? What would happen if we had lost one of those games? Would that still show as a loss or would it just not be relevant?

[CMJ]

Oh, we'd definitely be penalized if we lost to a D2 or NAIA school, I can assure you of that. As far as the selection committee....I'm not sure if they would consider us an 18 or 20 win team, their criteria is not exactly consistent from year to year. RPI used to mean alot to them, and now it doesn't seem to really.

Edited February 26, 2010 by CMJ

[stebo]

Got it - I think - thanks guys. I can go back to work with some ammuntion tomorrow. From what I have learned - there are not just a set of records for the NCAA, there are a few different ones. And the NCAA selection committee does not count the wins. So his argument was in context to getting into the dance... and I guess that he is right. Those games did not help us and they might hurt us because we could have played 2 other teams to have 20+ wins and perhaps a higher RPI. So I guess that I was right and he was right... they count for some things but not for the post season (but I guess the whole purpose of the regular season is to get to the post season).

[CMJ]

On the other hand, in some ways playing a strong NAIA or D2 school might be better for your RPI in that it doesn't count. I mean let's say we play UNO next season OOC(I figure we probably will as a good natured gesture in their Indy transition year down to D3). We'll probably get crushed strength of schedule wise for that game, when we could play a D2 school who might be just as good, but won't help/hurt us in the SOS.

[BleedGreen]

I thought Southern was in the SWAC conference with Jackson State and thus, a Division I school? so, that would mean 19 wins becuase Cameron did not count with a win against Monroe giving us 20 Division I wins?

[CMJ]

I thought Southern was in the SWAC conference with Jackson State and thus, a Division I school? so, that would mean 19 wins becuase Cameron did not count with a win against Monroe giving us 20 Division I wins?

University of the Southwest is NAIA.

I still count it as 20 wins. It shows in the NCAA record books as 20 wins, so it's 20 wins.

[stebo]

Hmmm, I am not so sure about this now. I did some searching on the Net and Exhibition games DID NOT count towards final records until recently. Here is our last Big Dance schedule/results according to the NCAA (as you can see, after we played Texas College - we won the game - but our record was still 0-0 (no win, no loss):

Schedule

Date Time Opponent# Rank# Site TV Result Attendance Record

Exhibition

Nov. 7, 2006 7:00 PM Texas College Super Pit • Denton, TX W 92-71 N/A 0-0

Regular season

Nov. 10, 2006 7:00 PM Cameron* Super Pit • Denton, TX W 92-71 1,047 1–0

Nov. 12, 2006 12:00 PM @ Charlotte* Dale F. Halton Arena • Charlotte, NC W 90-72 5,129 2–0

Nov. 15, 2006 7:00 PM UT-Arlington* Super Pit • Denton, TX L 83-81 1,824 2–1

Nov. 18, 2006 7:05 PM @ Rice* Autry Court • Houston, TX W 71-69 1,496 3–1

Nov. 21, 2006 7:00 PM Tulsa* Super Pit • Denton, TX W 65-63 1,947 4-1

Nov. 25, 2006 7:00 PM Texas State* Super Pit • Denton, TX W 95-77 1,795 5–1

Nov. 29, 2006 7:00 PM @ Nebraska* Bob Devaney Sports Center • Lincoln, NE L 76-57 9,787 5–2

Dec. 6, 2006 7:00 PM @ Stephen F. Austin* William R. Johnson Coliseum • Nacogdoches, TX W 76-70 1,638 6-2

Dec. 9, 2006 2:00 PM @ Nicholls State* Stopher Gym • Thibodaux, LA W 74-71 224 7–2

Dec. 16, 2006 2:00 PM @ New Orleans Human Performance Center • New Orleans, LA L 97-93 2OT 458 7-3

Dec. 19, 2006 7:00 PM @ Western Kentucky E. A. Diddle Arena • Bowling Green, KY W 86-85 N/A 8-3

Dec. 22, 2006 2:00 PM Jarvis Christian* Super Pit • Denton, TX W 94-70 941 9-3

Dec. 28, 2006 7:00 PM Belhaven* Super Pit • Denton, TX W 93-66 1,227 10-3

Dec. 30, 2006 7:00 PM Denver Super Pit • Denton, TX W 91-79 1,880 11-3

Jan. 6, 2007 7:30 PM @ Arkansas-Little Rock Jack Stephens Center • Little Rock, AR L 86-75 3,312 11–4

Jan. 6, 2007 3:05 PM @ Arkansas State Convocation Center • Jonesboro, AR L 84-60 2,961 11-5

Jan. 11, 2007 7:00 PM Louisiana-Lafayette Super Pit • Denton, TX W 73-72 OT 2,387 12-5

Jan. 18, 2007 6:30 PM @ Florida International Pharmed Arena • Miami, FL L 67-66 644 12–6

Jan. 20, 2007 7:00 PM Florida Atlantic Super Pit • Denton, TX W 76-59 3,264 13–6

Jan. 25, 2007 7:00 PM Middle Tennessee Super Pit • Denton, TX W 66-53 1,323 14-6

Jan. 28, 2007 1:30 PM South Alabama Mitchell Center • Mobile, AL L 90-89 2,325 14-7

Feb. 1, 2007 7:00 Troy Super Pit • Denton, TX W 98-57 1,384 15-7

Feb. 3, 2007 7:00 PM Western Kentucky Super Pit • Denton, TX W 74-70 3,521 16-7

Feb. 8, 2007 7:00 PM New Orleans Super Pit • Denton, TX L 64-62 2,461 16-8

Feb. 10, 2007 2:30 PM @ Louisiana-Monroe Fant-Ewing Coliseum • Monroe, LA L 66-62 2,758 16-9

Feb. 15, 2007 8:00 PM @ Denver Magness Arena • Denver, CO W 78-65 1,024 17-9

Feb. 17, 2007 7:00 PM Arkansas-Little Rock Super Pit • Denton, TX W 74-69 3,112 18-9

Feb. 22, 2007 7:00 PM Arkansas State Super Pit • Denton, TX L 74-71 2,174 18-10

Feb. 24, 2007 7:05 PM @ Louisiana-Lafayette Cajundome • Lafayette, LA W 72-70 2,931 19-10

2007 Sun Belt Men's Basketball Tournament

Feb. 28, 2007 7:00 PM Louisiana-Lafayette Super Pit • Denton, TX

(First Round) W 93-78 2,778 20-10

Mar. 4, 2007 3:00 PM vs. Louisiana-Monroe Cajundome • Lafayette, LA

(Quarterfinal) W 77-71 N/A 21-10

Mar. 5, 2007 6:30 PM vs. Middle Tennessee Cajundome • Lafayette, LA

(Semifinal) W 59-52 N/A 22-10

Mar. 6, 2007 8:00 PM vs. Arkansas State Cajundome • Lafayette, LA

(Championship) ESPN2 W 83-75 409 23-10

2007 NCAA Men's Division I Basketball Tournament

Mar. 16, 2007 11:30 AM vs. #5 Memphis New Orleans Arena • New Orleans, LA

(First Round) CBS L 73-58 N/A 23-11

____________________

Same thing with the next year (Win over Panhandle State was not counted):

Date Time Opponent# Rank# Site TV Result Attendance Record

Exhibition

Nov. 10, 2007 7:00 PM Panhandle State* Super Pit • Denton, TX W 108-71 N/A 0-0

Regular season

Nov. 10, 2007 7:30 PM Cameron* Super Pit • Denton, TX W 106-53 3,136 1–0

Nov. 14, 2007 7:00 PM Oklahoma State* Super Pit • Denton, TX W 82-73 6,793 2–0

Nov. 17, 2007 2:00 PM Indiana State* Super Pit • Denton, TX W 78-69 2,531 3-0

Nov. 21, 2007 7:00 PM @ UT-Arlington* Texas Hall • Arlington, TX L 72-64 1,289 3–1

Nov. 30, 2007 7:30 PM vs. Western New Mexico* Pan American Center • Las Cruces, NM

(Lou Henson Classic) W 84-82 382 4-1

Dec. 1, 2007 9:30 PM @ New Mexico State* Pan American Center • Las Cruces, NM

(Lou Henson Classic) W 75-72 2,626 5–1

Dec. 5, 2007 8:00 PM @ #5 Texas* Frank Erwin Center • Austin, TX L 88-72 10,913 5–2

Dec. 8, 2007 2:00 PM Hartford* Super Pit • Denton, TX W 105-97 2,157 6-2

Dec. 17, 2007 7:00 PM Southern University* Super Pit • Denton, TX W 79-58 2,218 7–2

Dec. 20, 2007 7:00 PM Centenary* Super Pit • Denton, TX W 67-54 1,826 8-2

Dec. 22, 2007 5:00 PM @ Denver Magness Arena • Denver, CO L 63-59 1,196 8-3 (0-1)

Dec. 28, 2007 2:00 PM Texas A&M International* Super Pit • Denton, TX W 97-70 2,231 9-3 (0-1)

Jan. 3, 2008 7:30 PM @ Troy Trojan Arena • Troy, AL L 91-88 1,936 9-4 (0-2)

Jan. 7, 2008 7:00 PM Louisiana-Monroe Super Pit • Denton, TX W 78-57 1,667 10-4 (1-2)

Jan. 10, 2008 7:05 PM @ Arkansas State Convocation Center • Jonesboro, AR W 74-63 3,097 11-4 (2-2)

Jan. 12, 2008 7:00 PM Louisiana-Lafayette Super Pit • Denton, TX W 72-65 3,453 12-4 (3-2)

Jan. 17, 2008 7:00 PM New Orleans Super Pit • Denton, TX L 83-61 3,410 12-5 (3-3)

Jan. 17, 2008 6:00 PM @ Florida Atlantic FAU Arena • Boca Raton, FL L 86-81 768 12-6 (3-4)

Jan. 27, 2008 2:00 PM @ Middle Tennessee Murphy Center • Murfreesboro, TN L 69-60 2,852 12-7 (3-5)

Jan. 31, 2008 7:00 PM South Alabama Super Pit • Denton, TX W 70-68 3,218 13-7 (4-5)

Feb. 2, 2008 7:00 PM Florida International Super Pit • Denton, TX W 60-57 3,122 14-7 (5-5)

Feb. 7, 2008 7:00 PM Western Kentucky Super Pit • Denton, TX L 94-84 3,246 14-8 (5-6)

Feb. 9, 2008 7:00 PM @ Arkansas-Little Rock Jack Stephens Center • Little Rock, AR L 84-82 4,834 14-9 (5-7)

Feb. 14, 2008 7:00 PM Denver Super Pit • Denton, TX W 62-48 2,318 15-9 (6-7)

Feb. 16, 2008 7:00 PM Troy Super Pit • Denton, TX W 90-64 2,834 16-9 (7-7)

Feb. 20, 2008 7:30 PM @ Louisiana-Monroe Fant-Ewing Coliseum • Monroe, LA W 72-40 1,147 17-9 (8-7)

Feb. 23, 2008 7:00 PM Arkansas State Super Pit • Denton, TX W 82-77 5,237 18-9 (9-7)

Feb. 28, 2008 7:05 PM @ Louisiana-Lafayette Cajundome • Lafayette, LA L 63-58 3,684 18-10 (9-8)

Mar. 1, 2008 7:00 PM @ New Orleans Human Performance Center • New Orleans, LA W 79-77 1,022 19-10 (10-8)

2008 Sun Belt Men's Basketball Tournament

Mar. 5, 2008 7:00 PM Arkansas State Super Pit • Denton, TX W 85-63 4,631 20-10 (10-8)

Mar. 8, 2008 9:15 PM vs. Western Kentucky Mitchell Center • Mobile, AL L 84-70 4,734 20-11 (10-8)

_________________

So we actually had 24 wins in the 2006/2007 season but the exhibition game did not count... and we actually had 21 wins in the 2007/2008 season but the exhibition game did not count.

But then again - CMJ is correct that a game against Cameron CAN count, because look at the 2008 season, we played them in game 2 of the regular season. So I guess that the confusion is just dealing with the elimination of exhibition games last year. They are completely gone now. Those games are now in the schedule in the same basic locations (at the beggining somewhere) to warm the team up and build confidence... but where they did not affect our record in the past - now they potentially could.

After looking all this over - It is my opinion that we should not be playing these games/teams. If the NCAA selection committee looks at us as an 18 win team (after this game), that is really all that matters. You can call them exhibition or you can call them whatever you want but wins over these types of schools just don't really count.

I am going to guess that the rationale from the NCAA selection committee is that these teams/programs have lower resources, different rules regarding admitting players like GPA's, different scholarship arrangements, and limited budgets... with all this playing a role - they must have decided that these games cannot be factored into the success of a season when selecting the 65 teams because otherwise a team would load up on these types of pansies. Kind of like Texas Tech does with IAA schools in football

[CMJ]

No, no, no Stebo....those games you mentioned were ALWAYS preseason games. They never were counted as wins during the season. They were like a preseason basketball game. I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand. If it's called an "exhibition" game, then it is one. We never called Texas College anything but a exhibition game - like a preseason NFL football game in August when both teams play their 3rd teamers.

Cameron was the lid lifter...always was.

[NT80]

But then again - CMJ is correct that a game against Cameron CAN count, because look at the 2008 season, we played them in game 2 of the regular season. So I guess that the confusion is just dealing with the elimination of exhibition games last year. They are completely gone now. Those games are now in the schedule in the same basic locations (at the beggining somewhere) to warm the team up and build confidence... but where they did not affect our record in the past - now they potentially could.

Schools can designate games themselves against other division schools as exhibition or not. Our game Dec. 2 against Univ of Southwest was considered a regular season game by us but an exhibition game by them.

http://www.usw.edu/280899.ihtml

[FirefightnRick]

I think what has hurt us more than anything, rpi wise, is that we lost at home to a FIU team that is currently sitting at 287, and our highest win came against Troy sitting at 146. Had we won that FIU game at home Tasty would be getting a lot more sleep these days.

Rick

Edited February 26, 2010 by FirefightnRick

[FirefightnRick]

Pomeroy sez tonight makes 20 wins.

http://www.kenpom.com/team.php?team=North Texas

An interesting note under pomeroy's explanation for his system.

I would describe the philosophy of the system as this: it looks at who a team has beaten and how they have beaten them. Same thing on the losses, also. Yes, it values a 20 point win more than a 5 point win. It likes a team that loses a lot of close games against strong opposition more than one that wins a lot of close games against weak opposition.

Our SOS is 280. wKYjelly's SOS is 186 which includes two wins over SEC opponents, which explains why they are ranked overall 121 in his system and we are at 171.

Also, we are the 6th lowest ranked team with single digit losses in this system.

Rick

[good_ken]

I could only take away, from this debate, that JJ's team won as many games this year as they did during my entire undergradaute tenure (Trilli era). wow.