For Mo Green And Others............

[calvin]

I cant believe the amount of people who rag on JJ and our b-ball program. I had to get out the media guide and show what a horrible b-ball program this has been. Here is the b-ball program the 30 years before we hired JJ. And even our 20 wins seasons in the 70's were full of games against what are now D-2, D-3, and NAIA schools. For those people that rag on our 1 or 2 wins a year against non D-1 schools, well in our hey day our schedule was full of non D-1 schools. So here are the records the 30 years before JJ.

71-72, 8-18

72-73, 9-16

73-74, 13-13

74-75, 6-20

75-76, 22-4

76-77, 21-6

77-78, 22-6

78-79, 11-16

79-80, 13-14

80-81, 15-12

81-82, 15-12

82-83, 15-15

83-84, 9-19

84-85, 5-23

85-86, 10-18

86-87, 11-17

87-88, 17-13

88-89, 14-15

89-90, 5-25

90-91, 17-13

91-92, 15-14

92-93, 5-21

93-94, 14-15

94-95, 14-13

95-96, 15-13

96-97, 10-16

97-98, 5-21

98-99, 4-22

99-00, 7-20

00-01, 4-24

So in the 30 years before JJ we had 3 seasons of 18 wins or more. In the last 4 years we have won 23, 20, 20, and this year at least 18. I still cant believe that people can get on here and complain about JJ and the program.

Edited February 16, 2010 by calvin

[oldschoollefty]

OUCH!!! in years '97 through '01 we had four straight 20 LOSS seasons. Believe me, winning 20+ for four consecutive years is much more difficult than losing 20 for four.

JJ is God...period.

[Green Lantern]

Good post. Really puts things into perspective.

I'll admit that earlier in the year I was not as optimistic about our teams chances in the SBC tourney as I am now. Once again, JJ has got his team playing solid basketball coming down the stretch.

I still can't help but wonder how good this team could have been with a healthy Dom at the point all year.

All in all, very pleased with how the season has progressed.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Green Lantern

[untgeorge]

I cant believe the amount of people who rag on JJ and our b-ball program. I had to get out the media guide and show what a horrible b-ball program this has been. Here is the b-ball program the 30 years before we hired JJ. And even our 20 wins seasons in the 70's were full of games against what are now D-2, D-3, and NAIA schools. For those people that rag on our 1 or 2 wins a year against non D-1 schools, well in our hey day our schedule was full of non D-1 schools. So here are the records the 30 years before JJ.

71-72, 8-18

72-73, 9-16

73-74, 13-13

74-75, 6-20

75-76, 22-4

76-77, 21-6

77-78, 22-6

78-79, 11-16

79-80, 13-14

80-81, 15-12

81-82, 15-12

82-83, 15-15

83-84, 9-19

84-85, 5-23

85-86, 10-18

86-87, 11-17

87-88, 17-13

88-89, 14-15

89-90, 5-25

90-91, 17-13

91-92, 15-14

92-93, 5-21

93-94, 14-15

94-95, 14-13

95-96, 15-13

96-97, 10-16

97-98, 5-21

98-99, 4-22

99-00, 7-20

00-01, 4-24

So in the 30 years before JJ we had 3 seasons of 18 wins or more. In the last 4 years we have won 23, 20, 20, and this year at least 18. I still cant believe that people can get on here and complain about JJ and the program.

There can be no question that JJ is the best coach we have ever had.

The question is what do we want, and what can we reasonably hope for? The subject of a post by Tasty a while ago.

We are about 137 in the RPI, depending on which one your read. Sagarin has us at 163, Pomeroy at 179. If we win the conf tournament we will be a 15 or 16 seed. Until this season, we have done better than 10-6 in the conf, and that only once at 11-7. Coming into this season, JJ was below .500 in conf games in his career though in fairness he inherited a train wreck; he was 43-37 in the most recent five years and of course is improving on that.

So the question that Mo is raising is, is that what we want from this program?

Believe me things will be getting tougher if the conference can keep such coaches as Jarvis, Brady, Arrow, Davis, McDonald, etc. These guys have scalps on their wall and are excellent at both recruiting and game coaching.

This season is probably JJs best coaching job, considering the injuries which robbed us of our point guard and inside depth, and the trend of conference results is positive. He is making progress.

So to me stating that JJ is the best coach we have ever had begs the issue; the issue is are we getting out of our program what we want and are we getting what we think we should?

[FirefightnRick]

And even our 20 wins seasons in the 70's were full of games against what are now D-2, D-3, and NAIA schools.

75-76, 22-4

76-77, 21-6

77-78, 22-6

78-79, 11-16

79-80, 13-14

80-81, 15-12

81-82, 15-12

82-83, 15-15

Calvin conveniently leaves out that during these years, as an independent early on, we also had wins over:

TCU(5 times)

Texas(twice)

SMU(3 times)

Baylor(3 times)

Texas Tech

Arizona State(finished 25-4 and an NCAA bid)

Kansas State

Rice

U Mass

Louisiana Tech

I'm sure there were other wins over known opponents I'm leaving out that I just don't know of.

Rick

Edited February 16, 2010 by FirefightnRick

[FirefightnRick]

Another example of additional quality wins over an opponent from the past that Calvin wouldn't have a clue about in today's world.

Lamar University, coached by the great Billy Tubbs.

In the '78-'79 season, during Tubb's 3rd year and second year in a row to finish the season with single digit losses, NT gave them one of their losses. That Lamar team finished 23-9 and went 1-1 in the NCAA tournament.

The next season Lamar would go 2-1 in the NCAA tourney.

'81-'82, NT beat Lamar 63-60 that year. Lamar finished 22-7 and 0-1 in the NIT.

The next season, '82-'83, NT beats Lamar 61-55. Lamar goes on to finish 23-8 and 1-1 in the NCAA tournament.

Rick

Edited February 16, 2010 by FirefightnRick

[calvin]

I didnt conveniently leave those out b/c I didnt care about that. Who cares if we beat SMU and finished 15-15 for the year? Also in those years we had multiple wins over West Texas State, Tartleton St., Oklahoma City University and some others I have never heard of. But some people like to point out that we have Cameron on the schedule every year but during our glory days our schedule was full of Cameron's.

And i would like to point out that JJ has beaten Ok. St, Tulsa, Rice, Baylor, Indiana St., Missouri St., UNC Charolotte, WKU, and a very good South Alabama team.

[FirefightnRick]

Another example.

In the 82-83 season NT finished 15-15 on the season. But that year we went 2-1 against a Karl Malone led La Tech. The last win over the Bulldogs that year was in the first round of the SLC tourney in which Kenny Lyons scored 48 points in that game and won the tourney MVP.

Rick

[Green Lantern]

Rick,

Just curious. Are you dissapointed in the basketball team this season? I really feel like we've achevied at a level higher than I initially expected given our injury situation.

I don't feel that praising the past four successful years in any way diminishes the accomplishment of past NT teams. We've had some great wins in previous years in multiple eras (the JJ era included).

Edited February 16, 2010 by Green Lantern

[calvin]

I am not knocking any of our past teams b/c i am sure we have had some good ones and great players. But I cant understand why you talk so highly of a team that was 15-15, without doing the same of our recent sucess?

[FirefightnRick]

Also in those years we had multiple wins over West Texas State, Tartleton St., Oklahoma City University and some others I have never heard of.

Why doesn't this surprise me?

West Texas State was in the Missouri Valley (and remained there till '85?) with us until our departure from the MOV in '1975. They were D I, not D II. Our games against them in '75 were as an independent. The MOV was one of the top basketball conferences in the nation. In '75 NT went 1-1 against WT. That year they finished 19-7, but at one point during that season were ranked in the top 20.

And we never had multiple wins over Tarleton and Ok City. We played them each, one time. But we did so in the same year that we also beat Baylor and SMU of the Southwest Conference, and beat a 4 loss NCAA tourney team from the Pac 10, Arizona State.

And since you admit you know nothing about Tarleton State, here's a note about one of the current top D II schools in the nation:

In the last six seasons, the Tarleton Texans have been seen numerous times in the NCAA Division II national polls, including debuting at No. 1 in

three preseason polls in 2005-06(beat TCU in Forth Worth). This season, Tarleton was ranked No. 3 by the Division II Bulletin’s Preseason Poll and No. 7 by Street & Smith’s. In fact, the Texans have made the Street & Smith preseason poll four of the last five seasons.

Rick

Edited February 16, 2010 by FirefightnRick

[foutsrouts]

I didnt conveniently leave those out b/c I didnt care about that. Who cares if we beat SMU and finished 15-15 for the year? Also in those years we had multiple wins over West Texas State, Tartleton St., Oklahoma City University and some others I have never heard of. But some people like to point out that we have Cameron on the schedule every year but during our glory days our schedule was full of Cameron's.

And i would like to point out that JJ has beaten Ok. St, Tulsa, Rice, Baylor, Indiana St., Missouri St., UNC Charolotte, WKU, and a very good South Alabama team.

Schools like West Texas State (Maurice Cheeks) and Oklahoma City (11 NCAA Tourneys - Abe Lemons) may sound like cupcakes now, but back in the day they and many other "smaller" schools had some pretty good basketball programs. No comparison to the Cameron and Univ. of the Southwest crowd.

[KRAM1]

There can be no question that JJ is the best coach we have ever had.

I assume you mean in basketball. We have had this discussion before regarding "overall" best UNT coach ever, right?

Good overall post BTW.

[GrandGreen]

Interesting discussion, my opinion is that JJ certainly deserves to be considered one of the best coaches in NT basketball history, the only coach I would put above him based on teams I have seen would be Spika. Spika's teams beat several top twenty teams and he coached a very fast paced game and he managed to win in the MVC without the greatest talent.

Looking back at old scores can be very misleading unless you want to do a lot of research. However, most of NT's teams in the last fifty years have been mediocre at best and downright bad a lot of the time with only a handful of exceptions. It is much easier to win 20 games now than it was a decade or more back. More games and power-puff oc schedules have made the twenty game standard much less meaningful. However, despite serious injuries NT is posed to have it's best Belt season ever. Frankly, NT has no great wins and has more than a few loses that should not have happened but once again seems to be peaking at the right time.

I think most acknowledge the job that Jones has done, but still want the team to take the next step up. Winning 20 games is very good, but moving the team to consistently be a top 100 school should be the next objective. It should also be realized that Jones as well as every coach since moving up from the Southland is working against much better supported conference programs. To get to that next step is going to take a lot more support than NT currently has. Having a very generously counted attendance of less than 3,000 including in most games a few hundred students does not provide much of a base to build a program on.

Edited February 16, 2010 by GrandGreen

[calvin]

I really had no idea that West Texas State was in the Missouri Valley? Why did they go D-2 ?

Which ever which way you spin it, this has been a horrible b-ball program and we now have something going here.

I like many others would like to see us move in the top 100 and i really thought this was going to be the year that we did that.

I think i would rather have a team that wins 20 games a year and has a chance to win the conference every year than a team like Drake or Kent St, where they have a great year and go to the NCAA's and then going back to winning 12 or 14 games.

[UNT90]

I really had no idea that West Texas State was in the Missouri Valley? Why did they go D-2 ?

Which ever which way you spin it, this has been a horrible b-ball program and we now have something going here.

I like many others would like to see us move in the top 100 and i really thought this was going to be the year that we did that.

I think i would rather have a team that wins 20 games a year and has a chance to win the conference every year than a team like Drake or Kent St, where they have a great year and go to the NCAA's and then going back to winning 12 or 14 games.

I guess this is my biggest problem with the program (which isn't really that big). UNT success never seems to equate to the amount of talent present. The offense often seems disjointed and adjustments sometimes take longer than needed.

That said, JJ has the team on a nice run heading into the stretch. Tramiel appears to finally be healthy and the rotation seems to be clicking pretty well.

Problem is, because of early season scheduling and performance and a weak conference RPI, even if we win the SBC tournament, we will be playing one of the top 8 teams in the country. This could have been changed by better scheduling and performance early (ya, ya, we had injuries. So did most everyone else).

Why don't we wait for some kind of postseason success before annointing JJ the greatest ever.

Edited February 16, 2010 by UNT90

[Green Lantern]

I think this thread has kind of derailed from the original post's content to "is JJ the best BB coach of all time at North Texas?".

I just look at the recent vs. past records as an indicator that things are progressing pretty well under JJ's leadership. I think all NT fans should be happy about that. Everyone should be able to agree that things are exponentially better with Men's hoop since Coach Jones arrived.

[untgeorge]

I assume you mean in basketball. We have had this discussion before regarding "overall" best UNT coach ever, right?

Good overall post BTW.

Yes, I did in fact mean men's basketball.

[untgeorge]

Interesting discussion, my opinion is that JJ certainly deserves to be considered one of the best coaches in NT basketball history, the only coach I would put above him based on teams I have seen would be Spika. Spika's teams beat several top twenty teams and he coached a very fast paced game and he managed to win in the MVC without the greatest talent.

Looking back at old scores can be very misleading unless you want to do a lot of research. However, most of NT's teams in the last fifty years have been mediocre at best and downright bad a lot of the time with only a handful of exceptions. It is much easier to win 20 games now than it was a decade or more back. More games and power-puff oc schedules have made the twenty game standard much less meaningful. However, despite serious injuries NT is posed to have it's best Belt season ever. Frankly, NT has no great wins and has more than a few loses that should not have happened but once again seems to be peaking at the right time.

I think most acknowledge the job that Jones has done, but still want the team to take the next step up. Winning 20 games is very good, but moving the team to consistently be a top 100 school should be the next objective. It should also be realized that Jones as well as every coach since moving up from the Southland is working against much better supported conference programs. To get to that next step is going to take a lot more support than NT currently has. Having a very generously counted attendance of less than 3,000 including in most games a few hundred students does not provide much of a base to build a program on.

Right on.

I especially agree that we have been competing against better supported conf programs. However consider Steve Shields, who during the same period won four west division championships in his first six seasons at UALR. I don't know that UALR is better supported, but maybe they are.

JJ got a two year extension and it was well earned. But in my we should be seeking consistent top 100 ranking and sometimes better. It wasn't long ago that the Belt had multiple bids and a 10 and 12 seed.

[CMJ]

I guess this is my biggest problem with the program (which isn't really that big). UNT success never seems to equate to the amount of talent present. The offense often seems disjointed and adjustments sometimes take longer than needed.

That said, JJ has the team on a nice run heading into the stretch. Tramiel appears to finally be healthy and the rotation seems to be clicking pretty well.

Problem is, because of early season scheduling and performance and a weak conference RPI, even if we win the SBC tournament, we will be playing one of the top 8 teams in the country. This could have been changed by better scheduling and performance early (ya, ya, we had injuries. So did most everyone else).

Why don't we wait for some kind of postseason success before annointing JJ the greatest ever.

Regarding your point about why couldn't we have started the season better. I suppose we coulda started like USA did, knock off a Top 25 school, and then gone in the tank. Or even WKU(tho they seem to have righted the ship) starting off like a house of fire before hitting a death spiral for around 3 weeks. I'm not saying you don't make a good argument, but this crap happens.

I've never claimed JJ was our greatest coach - but if you're going to use postseason success as a measurement - then we have no one enter that conversation since we have none. There seem to be three who get votes tho. One in the MVC, one in the late 70's/early 80's, and now.

So can we say JJ is perhaps our greatest coach? I think so.

[foutsrouts]

I guess this is my biggest problem with the program (which isn't really that big). UNT success never seems to equate to the amount of talent present. The offense often seems disjointed and adjustments sometimes take longer than needed.

That said, JJ has the team on a nice run heading into the stretch. Tramiel appears to finally be healthy and the rotation seems to be clicking pretty well.

Problem is, because of early season scheduling and performance and a weak conference RPI, even if we win the SBC tournament, we will be playing one of the top 8 teams in the country. This could have been changed by better scheduling and performance early (ya, ya, we had injuries. So did most everyone else).

Why don't we wait for some kind of postseason success before annointing JJ the greatest ever.

Personally, I think the jury should be out until at least after next season in regard to JJ being our greatest BB coach ever. We'll see what he can do with a team that will be absolutely loaded with Seniors whom he coached for most of their careers. He also is going to have to really put on his recruiting track shoes next season to fill all of those open spots. Hopefully, we can pull off the tourney this year and squeeze into the 14th seed at 24-8 to help him in that endeavor.

[calvin]

What were Texas A&I, Wisconsin-Parkside, Austin College, Roosevelt, Central Oklahoma, Trinity, and McMurray back in the 70s ? Were they D-1 ? i honestly dont know, i was actually shocked that West Texas State was D-1 and in the MVC.

[UNT90]

Regarding your point about why couldn't we have started the season better. I suppose we coulda started like USA did, knock off a Top 25 school, and then gone in the tank. Or even WKU(tho they seem to have righted the ship) starting off like a house of fire before hitting a death spiral for around 3 weeks. I'm not saying you don't make a good argument, but this crap happens.

I've never claimed JJ was our greatest coach - but if you're going to use postseason success as a measurement - then we have no one enter that conversation since we have none. There seem to be three who get votes tho. One in the MVC, one in the late 70's/early 80's, and now.

So can we say JJ is perhaps our greatest coach? I think so.

I don't think you can evaluate someone until their tenure is over. Could JJ be the greatest coach ever? Quite possibly. Has he acheived that already? No. Why? He is not done.

I would absolutely want to get the bad start out of the way and be playing like we are headed down the stretch. I was just pointing out that the entire schedule counts come seeding time, and the early season losses (particularly to FIU at home) will really hurt if we get to the tournament.

It is sad that this program has never won even one post-season tournament game. Makes me want to vote for nobody.

[CMJ]

I would agree that it's difficult to rank someone until their career is over.Maybe even give them 5-10 years like HOF's generally do.

And for the record, I wouldn't rank JJ #1 yet either.

[foutsrouts]

What were Texas A&I, Wisconsin-Parkside, Austin College, Roosevelt, Central Oklahoma, Trinity, and McMurray back in the 70s ? Were they D-1 ? i honestly dont know, i was actually shocked that West Texas State was D-1 and in the MVC.

Those teams were pretty much all NAIA teams back then. The NAIA produced some very good programs in those days, and quite a few of them were competitive with upper level NCAA programs. Most of the Southland, Lone Star, and SWAC teams (among others) were NAIA before they hooked up with the NCAA. It wasn't so much a cut and dried "power conference" world just a few short decades ago.