Canadian Premiere To Have Heart Surgery In U.s.

Shuke-D · February 6, 2010

I think it is simply one example. Especially when this administration has done everything in it's power to convince the American public that the system is broken, when most know, it is not. It needs reform. But it's not the absolute disaster that these hired drones below would have you believe.

Rick

Finally got a chance to watch this. I agree (as most do) with your statement that the nature of the current desire for reform is a necessary thing to be discussed at the moment. Now, let me stress up front again that I am not criticizing the content involved here, but am asking a question about the approach. Concerning your foregrounding statement that the people in this video are 'hired drones': when I clicked to watch, I assumed that there would be some type of journalistic argument/proof that the people in the video had been monetarily compensated to state their opinions, and hence are not reliable witnesses. Or that they were not really doctors at all but simply actors paid to misrepresent themselves as MDs. It is just a video, and yes, put out by the Obama Administration, taken during a White House sponsored event. Is there some journalistic research you are aware of proving that these people are paid to speak, and hence makes this disingenuous at best, and at worst cynical? If so, I would honestly appreciate a link to that.

As far as I can tell, these people are MDs, at a sponsored event, giving their opinions. There are also many MDs who have gone on record espousing against Health Care reform as it is currently being presented in legislation. Funny thing that: different people have different opinions about the same topic. If there's proof out there that this was a canned, paid, and therefore fake media event, then that would be worth knowing. But to say that their opinions are false, that they are hired drones, because you disagree with them, is exactly the point I am making about HOW the arguments on both sides are being presented. Now, that said, if you (or anyone else) can produce research/proof to show that these are individuals presenting their expertise/opinions in a false light, then I'm on board with you on this and will give ya a +1 for contributing relevant information to the debate. But if it's just that they have a different opinion than your own, and therefore must be idiots, dumb-a**es, or hired drones, then I just don't see how this is relevant to the debate.

Seriously, I'm hoping you can prove me wrong, that I was duped into believing that they are doctors with opinions, and not shills. And you are correct, the government before has paid people to present an opinion as their own:

No Commentator's Checkbook left behind

However, what I just did is an example of the gotcha-politics that is souring the debate. Politicians are in perpetual campaign modes now, and always slant the discussion into one where the other side is somehow intellectually/morally deficient instead of just acknowledging the different perspectives. That is, again, the main point I am trying to make here.

FirefightnRick · February 7, 2010

Seriously, I'm hoping you can prove me wrong, that I was duped into believing that they are doctors with opinions, and not shills.

To me it doesn't matter if they are doctors or not, they are still drones or shills who showed up that day to help Obama push for his health care power grab. Simply listen to what Arrezo Faithie? says in the video..."It's so broken that it's tragic". Really? Below is Fox News' coverage of this event, and shows a photo of the white lab coats being handed out.

Does someone sitting on the white house lawn in a lab coat pushing Obama's agenda make them valid doctors? We may never know, but one that showed up at a Shiela Jackson Lee town hall doing the same thing was found to be an imposter. Who's to say the others were not also?

The countless doctors and medics I know and work with personally think the 2,000 plus page bill Obama is attempting to shove down our throats is a crock of crap.

The system isn't perfect, but it's far from broken and tragic. We want to reform it, not destroy it.

Rick

Edited February 7, 2010 by FirefightnRick

Shuke-D · February 7, 2010

Tell ya what. I've been splitting hairs with you the last couple posts, so I'll do what I can to find some small middle ground between us.

To me it doesn't matter if they are doctors or not, they are still drones or shills who showed up that day to help Obama push for his health care power grab.

I guess it's just a semantic difference between us over the meaning of 'shill.' I won't bother to contest 'drone' because I'm going to link to an article later that makes that case for you.

Simply listen to what Arrezo Faithie? says in the video..."It's so broken that it's tragic". Really? Below is Fox News' coverage of this event, and shows a photo of the white lab coats being handed out.

I really don't like Fox and Friends, so I didn't get much out of that. I'm still pissed they cancelled The Beltway Boys. Mort and Fred were more substance-oriented and less wise-cracking fireworks. They still have Charles Krauthammer on though occasionally, so all is not lost.

That said, I did chuckle when it pointed out all the doctors were wearing lab coats in a cheap political theater stunt. +.5 for that, because I don't like it when any politician trusses up something in a fancy spectacle instead of just getting to the point.

Does someone sitting on the white house lawn in a lab coat pushing Obama's agenda make them valid doctors?

No. Their medical degrees do.

We may never know, but one that showed up at a Shiela Jackson Lee town hall doing the same thing was found to be an imposter.

That's some pretty heinous hypocrisy there. +.5 for pointing that out.

Who's to say the others were not also?

Actually, a whole bunch of reports say that all of the people present at the White House event were doctors, including one of the doctors invited to attend but declined because he was against health care reform. I'll link to that below.

The countless doctors and medics I know and work with personally think the 2,000 plus page bill Obama is attempting to shove down our throats is a crock of crap.

Good for them. No one should demean or belittle their opinions or credentials because of a disagreement.

The system isn't perfect, but it's far from broken and tragic. We want to reform it, not destroy it.

Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. The question is how, and hyperbolic name-calling will not allow that to happen. I got pretty interested in the specific event after the second video you posted and began reading up on it a bit. I found this little blog entry that makes your point exactly without demonizing the opposition as inferior, just different. Dr. Eric Novak, who is quoted in the article, sums up your attempt to paint these doctors as 'drones' without resorting to belittling them. I know it's just a style-issue between us (it's been well established that I err on the shy and timid side in these matters; I'm cool with that), so I thought I'd link to it.

Trying to be Fair and Balanced on the Boards Tonight

Take all this for what it's worth. You got +.5 for making me laugh, and +.5 for pointing out some bad political theater, and although it wasn't directly related to the event under discussion, was close enough to get me to shut up about it. That's a net gain of +1. We may not agree, but I respect humor and relevent documentation of evidence. [inserting obligatory flower smiley to smooth things over] :flowers:

UNT90 · February 7, 2010

What hasn't been talked about between you two is, what kind of doctors are these people? Big difference between an doctor who happens to be an administrator over a county hospital that may greatly benefit from funding from the new health care bill and a simple family practioner seeing patients every day. It would be interesting to know what benefit, if any, these Doctors will receive if the health care bill is passed.

eulessismore · February 7, 2010

What hasn't been talked about between you two is, what kind of doctors are these people? Big difference between an doctor who happens to be an administrator over a county hospital that may greatly benefit from funding from the new health care bill and a simple family practioner seeing patients every day. It would be interesting to know what benefit, if any, these Doctors will receive if the health care bill is passed.

Another thing I haven't seen discussed much is the extent to which the "simple family practitioner", if you're talking about a sole practitioner, exists anymore. The sole practitioner internist, really a fine doctor who tool medicare patients when a lot of doctors/practices were dropping them, closed his practice last spring saying the way things are now, which I took to mean the amount of time spent on administrative work such as insurance billing, precluded the sole practitioner model from working anymore. I did find a good doctor who is part of a group practice, but I do feel that if there were that many problems existing, before any changes to the health care system even made it out of committee in either house of congress, that serious burdens are being placed on the health care system, whether by government regulators, insurers, or personal injury lawyers.

And I do have to wonder if there are some problems that result from a simple resistance to change, or due to an advantage of NOT sharing information. My wife just retired from a position with a major area employer, which provided health insurance for both of us. We had as much preventative care taken care of before losing it (for which I'm grateful we could do). In seeing 2 doctors for the first time and one for the first time in 12 years, I continued to be amazed at the amount of redundant information required on forms to be completed for paper records at their offices. I suppose part of this is for good reasons (privacy concerns, legal or insurance company requirements, whatever), but it just seems like there's close to zero movement towards any computerization of patients' records.

Perhaps it's true that, as I heard someone say on NPR Radio, making that information unavailable to those outside the providers' offices is job security for some of those providers. I hope that's not the way most health care providers think, and for most, I'm sure it's not, but it seems like things could be further along in that regard.

Shuke-D · February 8, 2010

What hasn't been talked about between you two is, what kind of doctors are these people? Big difference between an doctor who happens to be an administrator over a county hospital that may greatly benefit from funding from the new health care bill and a simple family practioner seeing patients every day. It would be interesting to know what benefit, if any, these Doctors will receive if the health care bill is passed.

That kinda gets into the whole "it's just political theater, not policy discussion" aspect that we ended up at. And I'd go so far as to say that just because they are doctors does not give their opinions any particular relevance to the larger discussion. That's like saying because someone was a great NFL football player, they should be a head coach. Mike Singletary is an exception to this rule, but look at Steve Mariucci or Mike Tomlin. Never played in the NFL, and their college accolades came from non-FBS schools, but they were great head coaches. It's a different skill set that can think at the macro level.

FirefightnRick · February 23, 2010

Follow up article on the Premiere's surgery.

'My heart, my choice,' Williams says, defending decision for U.S. heart surgery

"I would've been criticized if I had stayed in Canada and had been perceived as jumping a line or a wait list. ... I accept that. That's public life," he said.

"(But) this is not a unique phenomenon to me. This is something that happens with lots of families throughout this country, so I make no apologies for that."

Williams said his decision to go to the U.S. did not reflect any lack of faith in his own province's health care system.

"I have the utmost confidence in our own health care system in Newfoundland and Labrador, but we are just over half a million people," he said.

"We do whatever we can to provide the best possible health care that we can in Newfoundland and Labrador. The Canadian health care system has a great reputation, but this is a very specialized piece of surgery that had to be done and I went to somebody who's doing this three or four times a day, five, six days a week."

Rick