Death Toll Rises From Juarez B Day Party Massacre

[LongJim]

We will make more jobs for farmers thanks to the versatility of hemp, we will open up a gigantic new tax source, we can help to stimy(sp) the illegal drug market in Mexico..

[KingDL1]

You didn't really address the social portion at all. Someone else drinking in my vicinity does not get me drunk, the same could not be said for marijuana.

If it becomes legal, then it would be more likely to take place in public areas. Children would be exposed, both in public and in more homes across the country. Is there any data on the long term affects on children?

Question: if it becomes legalized, would there be restrictions and additives? This would mean that the cases of cancer from smoking would increase. I don't see that it would remain pure, since the government can't keep their hands out of things.

And what would happen to people who drive high? There would be a natural increase in the number of DUIs and related deaths.

I doubt there would be much of a increase in any of the above, as long as the social stigma is reinforced. When I was a UPS driver I saw first hand how many people smoke pot with their kids around, I have been to plenty of public events where people openly smoke marijuana. I think whether it is legal or not has little if any influence on people. They make their decisions on personal values not state values, and I think it is clear that these values get changed through social pressure not really laws. But the drop in violent crime would drop drastically, as did with elimination of probation. Once the profit factor is taken out the organized crime part of drugs violent crimes should just about vanish. The only side left would be those that steal for drug money but I see that as a wash.

Pot or cigarettes I could do without both, but I do like a good cigar on rare occasion.

Edited March 23, 2010 by KingDL1

[FireFightnJoey]

How would you regulate it? Do you need a license to grow it and distribute it? Can just anyone do this?

Depending on regulation and enforcement, you could have tons and tons of homegrown and they will distribute it. Then there is no taxation to fund anything. I do not think it will stimy anything in Mexico. They will be able to freely distribute it if there is no proper regulation? With regulation, this will result in the same enforcement to keep it from coming across the border. Most cases, price will drop. Marijuana is much simpler to manufacture and conceal than huge barrels of alcohol.

Besides being simpler to regulate, the differences I see between marijuana and alcohol are in usage. I've never smoked a joint. So, I have no idea how it affects someone. But, you can drink a beer or a glass of wine with dinner for flavor or just refreshment. It is a substance that taken in any type of normal moderation such as a normal drink (not binge), will not have too profound of an affect on you. For the most part, it requires abuse to impair you. Marijuana ... one reason to smoke it ... to get high which means impairment and it does not require much abuse to impair you. Does it taste good and goes great with steak? Or does the steak go great with it after you've smoke it?

So you legalized it. Can you smoke it in a bar? Can you smoke it in public? Every night club would be filled with the smoke and whether you are smoking it or not, you are going to get the side effects, maybe high yourself? It is not contained. Again, you are smoking it to get high, right? This just adds to the already tragic driving impaired. There is no public good there. Similar to PI, are you a safety threat to the public or yourself? I would say considerably so more than alcohol. Right now, because it is illegal to possess it, less alone to use it, the result is most folks try to use it privately, etc. But there are still DUI issues in the current state of legality.

I've seen my fair share of tragedies involving DUI. We have a stretch of highway in our district which is 4-5 lanes wide on each side. On this stretch, specifically 1 mile of it, during my 10+ years of tenure with the FD, we've had atleast 4 head on collisions in the northbound lanes where the DUI driver was headed southbound, both doing alteast 70 mph, all resulting in multiple fatalities each. Most recent case included a toddler. And what really pisses you off, the DUI driver walks away over 50% of time. There are other DUI incidents including a one truck collision with a wall which resulted in the death of its 7 passengers. So, anything that will add to this type of tragedy, I am 100% against it. A substance which its intent is specifically to be high/impaired can do nothing but add to it. And I see marijuana being abused considerably more than alcohol.

I agree with KingDL's point on more emphasis needs to be placed on the trafficing than overcrowding our jails with those that use it. But at some point, the law has to hold both sides accountable. Otherwise, the persons buying it will be free to do as they wish with no fear of retribution. The law does take into account severity based on possession limits and number of convictions. But lets face it, it is so much easier to catch the folks buying it and street dealers for that matter than it is to get the folks higher up the distribution chain.

I do not view marijuana in the same category as other drugs. When it comes down to it, legalizing it sounds simple and a great remedy. But, it seems there are way too many extra variables that make this much more complex and I do not think it will magicly fix these issues south of the border. It could quite possibly compound them.

Regarding alcohol abuse and DUIs,etc., I would like to see more stiff penalties for these. Add to that the offenders with multiple offenses, no excuse.

Edited March 23, 2010 by FireFightnJoey

[FireFightnJoey]

If it becomes legal, then it would be more likely to take place in public areas. Children would be exposed, both in public and in more homes across the country. Is there any data on the long term affects on children?

Question: if it becomes legalized, would there be restrictions and additives? This would mean that the cases of cancer from smoking would increase. I don't see that it would remain pure, since the government can't keep their hands out of things.

And what would happen to people who drive high? There would be a natural increase in the number of DUIs and related deaths.

I remain skeptical of the data presented in these studies as we don't know the frequency of use and the impact that has. Because this is a study of an illegal activity, there are users that do not come forward and let their results be known. There could be unknown side effects because we cannot get a more complete sample size and get a feel for all variables. I am not saying that the data is not valid, but that there could be more that we do not see because of a limited number of people and the response bias that is inherent to this type of study.

THIS

When it is legalized, the incidents involving marijuana use and abuse will compound greatly in my opinion.

[HoustonEagle]

Prove that it IS more harmful. That's what you are supposed to do in a free society. You need a reason to make (or keep) something illegal, not to make something legal.

But just because you asked:

Deaths from the two substances. There are hundreds of alcohol overdose deaths each year, yet there has never been a marijuana overdose death in history. The consumption of alcohol is also the direct cause of tens of thousands of deaths in the U.S. each year.

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control reported 20,687 “alcohol-induced deaths” (excluding accidents and homicides) in 2003. In the same year, the CDC has no reports of “marijuana-induced deaths.”

Source: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/alcohol.htm

In 2001, there were 331 alcohol overdose deaths and 0 marijuana overdose deaths.

Source: U.S. Centers for Disease Control (CDC). http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5337a2.htm

Alcohol is one of the most toxic drugs, and using just 10 times what one would use to get the desired effect can lead to death. Marijuana is one of – if not the – least toxic drugs, requiring thousands times the dose one would use to get the desired effect to lead to death. This “thousands times” is actually theoretical, since there has never been a recorded case of marijuana overdose.

Source: The American Scientist, the Magazine of Sigma Xi, the Scientific Research Society

Long-term marijuana use is far less harmful than long-term alcohol use.

Source: Iversen, Leslie. Current Opinion in Pharmacology. Volume 5, Issue 1, February 2005, Pages 69-72

There has never been a documented case of lung cancer in a marijuana-only smoker, and recent studies find that marijuana use is not associated with any type of cancer. The same cannot be said for alcohol, which has been found to contribute to a variety of long-term negative health effects, including cancers and cirrhosis of the liver.

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/25/AR2006052501729.html

Studies find alcohol use contributes to the likelihood of domestic violence and sexual assault and marijuana use does not.

Source: Fals-Stewart , William, James Golden, Julie A. Schumacher. Journal of Addictive Behaviors. 28, pages 1555-1574. Intimate partner violence and substance use: A longitudinal day-to-day examination. Research Institute on Addictions, University at Buffalo, State University of New York

Studies find alcohol use contributes to aggressive behavior and acts of violence, whereas marijuana use reduces the likelihood of violent behavior.

Source: Hoaken, Peter N.S., Sherry H. Stewart. Journal of Addictive Behaviors. 28, pages 1533-1554. Drugs of abuse and the elicitation of human aggressive behavior. Dept. of Psychology, University of Western Ontario. Dept. of of Psychiatry, Dalhousie University.

Bingo

[UNT90]

Alcohol in the Prohibition Era

And look at all the wonderful things that alcohol has given us. DWI deaths by the B load, escalating family violence, and health complications a plenty. So, of course, the logical thing to do is open the door to another mind altering substance.

Think about how many of the youth today consider thier 1st beer a right of passage into manhood/womanhood. Look at the consumption rate of alcohol by teenagers trying to be adults. Do we really want to tell them that another mind altering drug is perfectly fine?

And no, education won't be the key to avoidance of the newly legalized marihuana. Why? Because the tobacco companies will target youth with about a quadzillionmillion dollars in marketing to establish thier market at an early age (just like cigs and alcohol today), compared to the $1.50 that will be spent on education.

The only hope is that youth is 1) smart enough AND 2) scared enough of the CONSEQUENCES of thier actions that they will stay away from drugs.

Alcohol has already done enough damage, no need to unleash another mind altering substance on our population.

And yes, alcohol should be illegal, even though I love a good beer. Never happen, though. It's been a part of society for to long.

Quick poll: How many involved in this conversation have kids?

Edited March 23, 2010 by UNT90

[MeanGreenTexan]

And yes, alcohol should be illegal, even though a love a good beer. Never happen, though. It's been a part of society for to long.

Hey, there's always O'Douls! Mmmm!

[aztecskin]

So, we're legalizing pot and buying UNI jerseys?

Pretty much sums it up.

How would you regulate it? Do you need a license to grow it and distribute it? Can just anyone do this?

I do not view marijuana in the same category as other drugs. When it comes down to it, legalizing it sounds simple and a great remedy. But, it seems there are way too many extra variables that make this much more complex and I do not think it will magicly fix these issues south of the border. It could quite possibly compound them.

Regarding alcohol abuse and DUIs,etc., I would like to see more stiff penalties for these. Add to that the offenders with multiple offenses, no excuse.

Valid questions all. Unfortunately I haven't thought much past just getting over the first hurdle, for lack-of-interest reasons. Thanks for asking though.

No, but seriously, just because we don't have well-thought, deeply researched answers to these questions now does not mean it is not viable. I am sure there are concerned groups (hippies, liberals, Michael Phelps) that have a plan all laid out. In fact, that is the only way that stuff will get passed. If you are pro-legalization you can't just scream, "Change!", you have to have a decently pored-over solution at the ready.

[MeanGreenTexan]

I thought Ron Washington's favorite was the main money-maker for the cartels... the weed is just side money?

If so, how much would legalizing pot really help?

[UNTflyer]

You didn't really address the social portion at all. Someone else drinking in my vicinity does not get me drunk, the same could not be said for marijuana.

If it becomes legal, then it would be more likely to take place in public areas. Children would be exposed, both in public and in more homes across the country. Is there any data on the long term affects on children?

Question: if it becomes legalized, would there be restrictions and additives? This would mean that the cases of cancer from smoking would increase. I don't see that it would remain pure, since the government can't keep their hands out of things.

And what would happen to people who drive high? There would be a natural increase in the number of DUIs and related deaths.

I remain skeptical of the data presented in these studies as we don't know the frequency of use and the impact that has. Because this is a study of an illegal activity, there are users that do not come forward and let their results be known. There could be unknown side effects because we cannot get a more complete sample size and get a feel for all variables. I am not saying that the data is not valid, but that there could be more that we do not see because of a limited number of people and the response bias that is inherent to this type of study.

In the Netherlands, smoking is tolerated... in hemp bars, coffee shops, and a person's home.

As for driving, if you want to follow that argument then alcohol should be illegal as well. Personal responsibility comes into play.

Studies have been on marijuana both in the US and overseas. There is lots of data.

[UNTflyer]

I thought Ron Washington's favorite was the main money-maker for the cartels... the weed is just side money?

If so, how much would legalizing pot really help?

There is still an incredible amount of money made on marijuana. Would it stop the drug wars? No, but I think it would help in terms of reducing trafficking and violence, and free up our resources going after hard core drugs like coke, heroin, and meth.

[Quoner]

I thought Ron Washington's favorite was the main money-maker for the cartels... the weed is just side money?

If so, how much would legalizing pot really help?

Seems weird to bring Eric Chavez into this.

[MeanGreenTexan]

Seems weird to bring Eric Chavez into this.

C'mon Quoner! If you've been following the news at all you would know that smuggling Latin American 3rd Basemen into America has the borders in complete chaos. It's not every day you find a gold glove Latin American 3rd Baseman. Ron Washington has only found it once!

[KingDL1]

THIS

When it is legalized, the incidents involving marijuana use and abuse will compound greatly in my opinion.

I can't imagine marijuana use increasing much, I can't think of a person I have known that wanted to smoke marijuana and had a hard time doing so. As for regulating marijuana I am fine with people growing themselves, and for being sold commercially just taxed no extra ingredients. You can grow your own tobacco and I have met some in the Carolina's that do. I want the hard drugs regulated by ingredients and strength, but I still believe people will do what they want illegal or not so tax it tax it tax it. Social pressure is the only real influence there is.

Heck you can't smoke a cigarette in a bar these days in Dallas, but the laws are there for driving under the influence of drugs. I would rather save the money spent to fight drugs and tax all drugs then continue this war on drugs that has raged my whole life.

[HoustonEagle]

The only reason marijuana is illegal is purely political. There are several examples I could cite but I will only waste your time with one. The National Commission on Marihuana and Drug Abuse was formed in the 1970's along the time that the Nixon administration wanted to show it was tough on crime. The Controlled Substance act was being pushed through congress and the commissions findings was supposed to bolster the administration position that Illegal drugs was a scourge on the face of America. There was only one problem. When the commissions findings were released it went contrary to the Administrations public stance regarding Marijuana. The commission actually found the drug to be safe and recommended that it be decriminalized for personal use. Nixon was only infuriated by this, calling it bogus and did not back away from his stance.

[FirefightnRick]

Anyone else care to contribute in a mature manner?

I thought I had teed this one up for you quite well considering the latest attempt by this Marxist regime to rape our constitution, which is now being legally contested by 37 states, and how it will in one portion or another, deal with the interstate commerce clause, to which legalizing the sale of dope will no doubt be related. It's a concern to me, as it should be to everyone, that if they can make you buy health insurance they can make you buy anything? Not sure how it will all play out, but we shall see?

Rick

Edited March 24, 2010 by FirefightnRick

[Censored by Laurie]

I thought I had teed this one up for you quite well considering the latest attempt by this Marxist regime to rape our constitution, which is now being legally contested by 37 states, and how it will in one portion or another, deal with the interstate commerce clause, to which legalizing the sale of dope will no doubt be related. It's a concern to me, as it should be to everyone, that if they can make you buy health insurance they can make you buy anything? Not sure how it will all play out, but we shall see?

Rick

So you're proposing the Constitution receive an abortion after the raping?

Rick is Pro Choice!

[KRAM1]

Also, it is sad that you don't care about people dying. A person is a person no matter how Gang-y.

Oh, how "touchy feely" you are today...I did not say I didn't care about people dying...I said I didn't care if gang members killed other gang members. I VERY much care about all the thousands of innocent lives that have been lost to gang violence. To me a thug killing another thug is a "public service" of sorts as it keeps the cops from having to shoot someone, keeps the thugs out of our court system and jails and keeps innocents from having to pay welfare to these thugs if they do survive into old age. Ok, so that's a bit "cold"...and yes, they are people. But, you choose (yes, it is a choice) the gang life and you are then pretty much in line to get what you signed up for in the first place. How many innocent lives have been destroyed by these thugs? If one gets killed while "on the job"...so be it. If you want to adopt a few "retired" gang members and let them babysit for you and your kids/grand kids...OK, good for you. You want to rehabilitate these thugs, good for you. But, I'll not be looking for a "gang nanny" even if they are "people too".

Please don't try to play "holier than thou" with me....if you have an opinion about these thugs, state it, but keep what you THINK I believe out of it. It's sad to me that you thought that comment was appropriate.

[Quoner]

Please don't try to play "holier than thou" with me....

It's true. That market is beyond cornered

[KRAM1]

It's true. That market is beyond cornered

Yep...I think it's all yours! And a good early morning to you too...are you going to play in this year's GMG.com Bowl? I am thinking you would make a great deep snapper....

[Quoner]

Yep...I think it's all yours! And a good early morning to you too...are you going to play in this year's GMG.com Bowl? I am thinking you would make a great deep snapper....

This is early? It's been weeks since we've bantered. This must be what the Joker felt when he told Batman that they need each other.

I'm waiting to see what weekend it falls on. You may like my deep snapping, but you'll really love my wide-receiving.

[NT03]

This is early? It's been weeks since we've bantered. This must be what the Joker felt when he told Batman that they need each other.

I'm waiting to see what weekend it falls on. You may like my deep snapping, but you'll really love my wide-receiving.

Are you still... wide open ?

Edited March 24, 2010 by NT03

[Quoner]

Are you still... wide open ?

Like Dodge Ball.

[forevereagle]

Like Dodge Ball.

I always figured you for more of a slot guy.

[FirefightnRick]

Arizona rancher killed, likely by illegal immigrant

"He's been working with Border Patrol for years, begging and pleading for help with his property being vandalized and his home being robbed," Simcox said.

"He's always been a humanitarian," Simcox said. "He always gives water and food to the people he finds in distress which seems to be the case last night and he called his wife and said he was giving some water to illegals and said to call Border Patrol."

Rick