Death Toll Rises From Juarez B Day Party Massacre

[CaribbeanGreen]

(outside of Hot Springs)

No F'n S. 'Preciate ya.

[forevereagle]

Legalize marijuana... it's less harmful physically and socially than alcohol.

Prove it.

[UNT90]

Is it like comparing meth to marijuana?

Seriously, why'd you switch up the drug in question? I think most folks are making this a pot issue only. Is there a Mexican meth market brewing because all of Oklahoma, Kansas, Arkansas and Alabama suddenly found new sources of fun? As KRAM said, we tax and control alcohol and cigs despite their destructive tendencies, and we get to tax and benefit from the money. Marijuana is a gray area to me; meth isn't.

If I'm not mistaken, this turned into a thread about legalizing ALL drugs. I am against legalizing marihuana because when you take the easy way out once, it becomes much easier to do it the next time, and the time after. Legalize marihuana, and other drugs will follow.

Seriously?? The mexicans control over 90% of the methamphetamine trade in the US. About 8 years ago, tough federal restrictions went into place limiting the sale of the core elements sold domestically to produce methamphetmine. This, combined with the mexican cartel finally figuring out that they could make this stuff with some good chemist at dirt cheap prices, led to the change in the market. What had been a mainly domestically produced drug turned into a major mexican export into this county in the span of about a year and a half. Gotta love that adjustable market. This also led to "ice" (much more potent form of methamphetamine) being much more common on the american street.

Just another example of why legalization wont work. The federal government would NEVER sanction the sale of "Ice", to whichis what most methamphetamine users have become accustomed.

Edited March 22, 2010 by UNT90

[TheTastyGreek]

No F'n S. 'Preciate ya.

There's nothing funny about HotHoopsaholism. It tears families apart, and wakes up the creepy caretaker.

[Quoner]

If I'm not mistaken, this turned into a thread about legalizing ALL drugs. I am against legalizing marihuana because when you take the easy way out once, it becomes much easier to do it the next time, and the time after. Legalize marihuana, and other drugs will follow.

Seriously?? The mexicans control over 90% of the methamphetamine trade in the US. About 8 years ago, tough federal restrictions went into place limiting the sale of the core elements sold domestically to produce methamphetmine. This, combined with the mexican cartel finally figuring out that they could make this stuff with some good chemist at dirt cheap prices, led to the change in the market. What had been a mainly domestically produced drug turned into a major mexican export into this county in the span of about a year and a half. Gotta love that adjustable market. This also led to "ice" (much more potent form of methamphetamine) being much more common on the american street.

Just another example of why legalization wont work. The federal government would NEVER sanction the sale of "Ice", to whichis what most methamphetamine users have become accustomed.

Legalizing weed and trying to stop real drugs is the only logical choice. I also don't understand why we have given billions to Mexico's leaders when they are some of the most corrupt individuals in the world. I guarantee you most if not all of that money is funding, or helping the cartel kingpins.

Personally, I would have no real problem with the legalization of marijuana as it could then be TAXED and regulated. You want lower healthcare costs, legalize this stuff and tax the heck out of it. Comparing a legal drug such as alcohol to an illegal one is a lame argument at best. Simple fact is...one is legal...one is not.

I agree fully. For some on the demand side, they may see what their high really costs, and it's more than the price on the dimebag. And for legalizing marijuana (and only that), yeah, I'm for that too. Legalize it, regulate it so it's safe, and tax it like tobacco and alcohol.

Anything so that innocent bystanders don't have to pay the real price so someone can get high in their living room.

There was one reference to coke by CBL, and the majority of the discussion has been weed-focused only, until someone threw meth-addicted babies into the argument out of left field.

I'll try to stay better educated about meth. I don't read about it and didn't include in the discussion -- I even admitted that in the post.

But hey, if they legalize one substance that was illegal others are sure to quickly follow. Look at the avalanche of legalized substances after Prohibition was reversed.

This is the basketball thread where you changed the argument 20 times all over again. sorry, but really not interested in playing another round of "super mid-argument debate changer free-for-all with facts I learned or saw that barely connect to what we're talking about but put you on the spot to answer me" with you again.

I think you're a good dude and would rather just stop this and keep it that way.

[Mean Green 93-98]

There was one reference to coke by CBL, and the majority of the discussion has been weed-focused only, until someone threw meth-addicted babies into the argument out of left field.

I'll try to stay better educated about meth. I don't read about it and didn't include in the discussion -- I even admitted that in the post.

But hey, if they legalize one substance that was illegal others are sure to quickly follow. Look at the avalanche of legalized substances after Prohibition was reversed.

This is the basketball thread where you changed the argument 20 times all over again. sorry, but really not interested in playing another round of "super mid-argument debate changer free-for-all with facts I learned or saw that barely connect to what we're talking about but put you on the spot to answer me" with you again.

I think you're a good dude and would rather just stop this and keep it that way.

The question that started the hijack (related hijack, but hijack nonetheless):

Is it about time to open up the legalization discussion?

That sounds pretty open to me.

KRAM1 responded with a post initially addressing drug legalization in general, then adding:

Now, if you want to legalize marijuana, go for it.

Really, UNT90 seems to be correct that the initial hijack of this thread was about the legalization of all drugs. I didn't notice any specific references to meth, but it seems pretty germane to a discussion about drug legalization.

Don't know why you'd get so touchy about a hijack of a hijack anyway.

Edited March 22, 2010 by Mean Green 93-98

[Quoner]

The question that started the hijack (related hijack, but hijack nonetheless):

That sounds pretty open to me.

KRAM1 responded with a post initially addressing drug legalization in general, then adding:

Really, UNT90 seems to be correct that the initial hijack of this thread was about the legalization of all drugs. I didn't notice any specific references to meth, but it seems pretty germane to a discussion about drug legalization.

Don't know why you'd get so touchy about a hijack of a hijack anyway.

I love when people think I get mad about this stuff. It's just a message board, not the bloody Cuban missile crisis.

Sometimes a topic starts broad and focuses in. Imagine an anus closing around a rubber fist. You can pry it back open and see what else you can get in there, but why not let the tight seal work for you and go with the flow? It feels better AND no one bleeds.

No one will ever out-hijack me.

[Shuke-D]

Who really bears the ethical responsibility for the deaths of any people uninvolved in the banana trade?

Banana Smugglers. And we're all against that.

sorry. I thought this thread would peter out, but it's shown amazing staying power. Must be a tantric thing.

[hickoryhouse]

As to not hearing this at a "pro-legalization" rally...that is all you're going to hear. Drugs have been, are and always will be a part of American culture...laws, moral lecturing and violence have not and will not ever change this.

There is a very clear cut route towards at worse lessening the violence...

Lets take this the one logical and proven step forward... Drugs have been, are and always will be a part of practically every culture that the planet earth has ever seen.

The fact is that if legalized, drugs are no longer going to be coming from illegal druglords, at least not directly. I know that we have all heard of the medical marijuana trend growing right here in the US of A, these pounds, and ounces, and buds of weed are not being shipped in from Mexico at least not for the most part, they are grown here in the states. They are grown from a network of, albeit horribly, regulated growers. I am of the opinion that if the powers that be in the US government throw their weight around, as they so often do, after they legalize weed then alot of the market for the Mexican weed dries up and, UNT90, people can go about smoking their pot and not worry about what they are doing to fund those who kill murder and pillage down in Mexico in the name of the marijuana trade.

Besides, think of who would be the obvious producers of such a drug if it were made legal, perhaps the cigarette companies? With as much scrutiny as these guys are under on a normal basis do you think that they would illegally import product? I would say with a fair amount of certainty no...

The answer here that addresses many sides of the issue is this. Legalize marijuana and regulate it and tax the holy heck out of it. We will make more jobs for farmers thanks to the versatility of hemp, we will open up a gigantic new tax source, we can help to stimy(sp) the illegal drug market in Mexico that is spilling violence into our country and we get to regulate the potency, quality and therefor the risks of the product. Not theperfect answer,but an answer just the same. Hoping that all of the drug addicts in the country wake up and realize that they are suporting violence and evil is just about as naive as believing that the tooth fairy will bring you a new car when you are 45 years old.

[UNT90]

There was one reference to coke by CBL, and the majority of the discussion has been weed-focused only, until someone threw meth-addicted babies into the argument out of left field.

I'll try to stay better educated about meth. I don't read about it and didn't include in the discussion -- I even admitted that in the post.

But hey, if they legalize one substance that was illegal others are sure to quickly follow. Look at the avalanche of legalized substances after Prohibition was reversed.

This is the basketball thread where you changed the argument 20 times all over again. sorry, but really not interested in playing another round of "super mid-argument debate changer free-for-all with facts I learned or saw that barely connect to what we're talking about but put you on the spot to answer me" with you again.

I think you're a good dude and would rather just stop this and keep it that way.

Dude. I think it was pretty obvious that I was talking about all drugs all along, as was the topic that was thrown open by CBL. This isn't anything personal, it's a simple discussion. Once you made your point about marihuana, I made mine. No biggie. The meth info was just that, info. No need to get so defensive about it. And it's not something I googled, I will promise you that.

Why are you trying to relate this to some distant discussion about a different subject on different forum that barely involved you? Just a little passive/aggresive, don't you think?

EDIT: And by the way, I no longer want to be Gonzaga. I now want to be St. Mary's

Edited March 22, 2010 by UNT90

[Quoner]

Dude. I think it was pretty obvious that I was talking about all drugs all along, as was the topic that was thrown open by CBL. This isn't anything personal, it's a simple discussion. Once you made your point about marihuana, I made mine. No biggie. The meth info was just that, info. No need to get so defensive about it. And it's not something I googled, I will promise you that.

Why are you trying to relate this to some distant discussion about a different subject on different forum that barely involved you? Just a little passive/aggresive, don't you think?

I was in Mexico for a week and am heavily reeling from the meth. It flowed like honey.

I bet you Binged it.

It was just aggressive. +1 'em if you got 'em.

[Quoner]

EDIT: And by the way, I no longer want to be Gonzaga. I now want to be St. Mary's

This was very well-played. I'd settle for Murray State, but my pants yearn for Xavier and Butler.

[UNT90]

This was very well-played. I'd settle for Murray State, but my pants yearn for Xavier and Butler.

Go for the gusto!! N. Iowa or nothing at all!!

[aztecskin]

I just have never understood how it's okay for a man to come home from a hard days work and drink 6 beers each night and tear his liver in half as opposed to smoking a bowl and going to sleep with virtually no ill effects...

Its cuz its a public relations thing. Weed got in late in the game and hell, it was taboo to show Lucy and Ricky with only one bed when the anti-weed propaganda was produced. As I've mentioned before (odd that it was almost exactly a year ago) I am for it. I am pro alternative forms of tax revenue and anti-cartel violence-near-my-place-of-living.

Every "joint" adds to the problem. And, many of the buyers of these drugs are fairly well educated folks. They simply turn their heads and think "it's not me"...."I am only smoking a little weed for personal use...I'm not harming anyone". Really???? Think about it.

No, I am not blaming the U.S. or the "user" for this problem. Only indicating that part of the problem indeed lies north of the Rio Grande. If you buy or use drugs YOU ARE definitely part of the problem. Justify it anyway you would like if it makes you feel better about the role you play, but you ARE part of the problem.

Now, if you want to legalize marijuana, go for it. I am sure you could find plenty of folks to support your efforts and plenty of U.S. firms who are anxious to get into the business of legally selling the stuff. Personally, I would have no real problem with the legalization of marijuana as it could then be TAXED and regulated. You want lower healthcare costs, legalize this stuff and tax the heck out of it. Comparing a legal drug such as alcohol to an illegal one is a lame argument at best. Simple fact is...one is legal...one is not. If you can't understand that difference, well, no wonder you are part of the problem. Prohibition was repealed, go get active and change the laws to legalize marijuana if you want. If it's that great, then surley you can muster enough support to get the laws changed, right?

I don't mind gang members killing other gang memebrs either, but that is not the only consequense of this narco war. It is shutting down businesses, closing schools, destroying towns, and resulting in the deaths of innocent people as well as the narco thugs.

Generalizing statements are bad. Although I don't have numbers in front of me (or anywhere else for that matter. Mostly letters in my household) there are people who grow their own stuff. And buy from local growers. Note: I know this is the Internet and normal rules of sense are not always in force, but please note that I didn't say that the majority of 'merrrcans don't get their ganja from Mesco.

As for the comparing weed to alcohol: it is foolish to accept the status quo because it is the status quo. I think we have a few more nuggets of info on the good/bad consequences of drinking alcohol and smoking weed than we did when it was outlawed. We don't have to wait for it to be legalized to compare the effects, buddy.

Also, it is sad that you don't care about people dying. A person is a person no matter how Gang-y.

I think, as a society, you head down the road (or, in this case, much, much further down the road) of demise when you make a compromise as big as this. Not to bring another issue into this, but think about how much socialized medicine will have to deal with the addiction if you legalize these drugs. Then it does affect everyone in the county, because everyone will be covered for every side effect related to drug use by the simple fact that drug use is sanctioned by the federal government. . ..

Do we tell young parents that it is OK to do methamphetamine in thier own home while raising a newborn? Will there be a federal observer there with young meth head mom to make sure she doesn't breast feed, thereby insuring that the infant does not become addicted to methamphetamine? Will there be a new law that any drug addicted new mother must take random drug tests? Who pays for these drug tests? Me and you.

Will the federal government sanctioned strength of methamphetamine be to this young couple's taste? I promise you it wont. I promise you there will be an illegal market to satisfy this young couple's, and many others, methamphetamine needs, and I promise you that market will come from Mexico. Same with every other drug.

It's the easy way out, folks.

And that was UNT90 showing you how to let your imagination get the best of you. Give him a hand folks!

UPDATE: Fixed a there their and added the don't that was originally intended.

Edited March 23, 2010 by aztecskin

[UNT90]

Its cuz its a public relations thing. Weed got in late in the game and hell, it was taboo to show Lucy and Ricky with only one bed when the anti-weed propaganda was produced. As I've mentioned before (odd that it was almost exactly a year ago) I am for it. I am pro alternative forms of tax revenue and anti-cartel violence-near-my-place-of-living.

Generalizing statements are bad. Although I don't have numbers in front of me (or anywhere else for that matter. Mostly letters in my household) there are people who grow their own stuff. And buy from local growers. Note: I know this is the Internet and normal rules of sense are not always in force, but please note that I didn't say that the majority of 'merrrcans get there ganja from Mesco.

As for the comparing weed to alcohol: it is foolish to accept the status quo because it is the status quo. I think we have a few more nuggets of info on the good/bad consequences of drinking alcohol and smoking weed than we did when it was outlawed. We don't have to wait for it to be legalized to compare the effects, buddy.

Also, it is sad that you don't care about people dying. A person is a person no matter how Gang-y.

And that was UNT90 showing you how to let your imagination get the best of you. Give him a hand folks!

Don't hijack a legitimate basketball thread!

[UNTflyer]

Prove it.

Prove that it IS more harmful. That's what you are supposed to do in a free society. You need a reason to make (or keep) something illegal, not to make something legal.

But just because you asked:

Deaths from the two substances. There are hundreds of alcohol overdose deaths each year, yet there has never been a marijuana overdose death in history. The consumption of alcohol is also the direct cause of tens of thousands of deaths in the U.S. each year.

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control reported 20,687 “alcohol-induced deaths” (excluding accidents and homicides) in 2003. In the same year, the CDC has no reports of “marijuana-induced deaths.”

Source: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/alcohol.htm

In 2001, there were 331 alcohol overdose deaths and 0 marijuana overdose deaths.

Source: U.S. Centers for Disease Control (CDC). http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5337a2.htm

Alcohol is one of the most toxic drugs, and using just 10 times what one would use to get the desired effect can lead to death. Marijuana is one of – if not the – least toxic drugs, requiring thousands times the dose one would use to get the desired effect to lead to death. This “thousands times” is actually theoretical, since there has never been a recorded case of marijuana overdose.

Source: The American Scientist, the Magazine of Sigma Xi, the Scientific Research Society

Long-term marijuana use is far less harmful than long-term alcohol use.

Source: Iversen, Leslie. Current Opinion in Pharmacology. Volume 5, Issue 1, February 2005, Pages 69-72

There has never been a documented case of lung cancer in a marijuana-only smoker, and recent studies find that marijuana use is not associated with any type of cancer. The same cannot be said for alcohol, which has been found to contribute to a variety of long-term negative health effects, including cancers and cirrhosis of the liver.

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/25/AR2006052501729.html

Studies find alcohol use contributes to the likelihood of domestic violence and sexual assault and marijuana use does not.

Source: Fals-Stewart , William, James Golden, Julie A. Schumacher. Journal of Addictive Behaviors. 28, pages 1555-1574. Intimate partner violence and substance use: A longitudinal day-to-day examination. Research Institute on Addictions, University at Buffalo, State University of New York

Studies find alcohol use contributes to aggressive behavior and acts of violence, whereas marijuana use reduces the likelihood of violent behavior.

Source: Hoaken, Peter N.S., Sherry H. Stewart. Journal of Addictive Behaviors. 28, pages 1533-1554. Drugs of abuse and the elicitation of human aggressive behavior. Dept. of Psychology, University of Western Ontario. Dept. of of Psychiatry, Dalhousie University.

[aztecskin]

Prove that it IS more harmful. That's what you are supposed to do in a free society. You need a reason to make (or keep) something illegal, not to make something legal.

Also, using the 1914 Harrison act rational, alcohol also makes white women sleep with men of other races and that is reason number 1 why it should be banned.

[cwb]

Go for the gusto!! N. Iowa or nothing at all!!

Viva Directional Iowa!

[Quoner]

So, we're legalizing pot and buying UNI jerseys?

[Censored by Laurie]

So, we're legalizing pot and buying UNI jerseys?

This group was freaked out by the name "Obama."

Can you really picture some of these guys wearing a jersey with "Farokhmanesh" written on the back?

[KingDL1]

This group was freaked out by the name "Obama."

Can you really picture some of these guys wearing a jersey with "Farokhmanesh" written on the back?

I believe if you can't beat them join them when it comes to drugs and I mean all drugs. Tax them, regulate them, and take the illegal element out of the equation. Use some of the tax money to campaign against the use of drugs and fund rehab centers. Just the saving in life, money spent fighting drugs, and court/prison costs are staggering. It is a war we can't win, and we are constantly losing ground on. I am not an advocate of drugs, but if a person wants drugs is not hard to find them. Making even the worst drugs safer, and making sure they are cut with safe ingredients is a starting point. The drugs like meth and heroin could be sold at a legal strength level. Let US companies make the money and create the jobs that drug lords have made. I would much rather have drug money going through legitimate companies here. Then support stronger regulation allowing businesses that want to discriminate against drug use as a deterrent along with a social war on how bad drugs are for a person's health especially in the use of shall we call them hard drugs. Hell smoking cigarettes now has a pretty bad stigma tied to them. I am as conservative as most get, but I know this drug war is something we can not win.

Edited March 23, 2010 by KingDL1

[UNT90]

This group was freaked out by the name "Obama."

Can you really picture some of these guys wearing a jersey with "Farokhmanesh" written on the back?

Would I be stereotyping if I called you a stereotyper?

How about instigator/stereotyper?

[Green P1]

Maybe the people who use these illegal drugs should consider the market that they are creating. Maybe they should evaluate their behavior, the behavior that causes innocent citizens caught in the crossfire to be senslessly murdered, and change that behavior. Why shouldn't they? Marihuana isn't an addictive substance, to hear the pro-legalization faction spin it, so why, then, don't the people who use marihuana just simple quit? Why would they support such brutal practices?

Because they care more about thier buzz than people dying in another country. Same for those who care more about thier coke, speed, x, or smack.

This is something you never hear the pro-legalization people address. It's just so much easier to cave in and legalize drugs than it is to take a stand for what is right and tell drug users that there is a consequence for thier actions.

Every single person on this board who uses illegal drugs needs to think about the death regimes that they are supporting before taking that next puff, snort or injection.

But they won't.

Human Nature.

Alcohol in the Prohibition Era

[Censored by Laurie]

I believe if you can't beat them join them when it comes to drugs and I mean all drugs. Tax them, regulate them, and take the illegal element out of the equation. Use some of the tax money to campaign against the use of drugs and fund rehab centers. Just the saving in life, money spent fighting drugs, and court/prison costs are staggering. It is a war we can't win, and we are constantly losing ground on. I am not an advocate of drugs, but if a person wants drugs is not hard to find them. Making even the worst drugs safer, and making sure they are cut with safe ingredients is a starting point. The drugs like meth and heroin could be sold at a legal strength level. Let US companies make the money and create the jobs that drug lords have made. I would much rather have drug money going through legitimate companies here. Then support stronger regulation allowing businesses that want to discriminate against drug use as a deterrent along with a social war on how bad drugs are for a person's health especially in the use of shall we call them hard drugs. Hell smoking cigarettes now has a pretty bad stigma tied to them. I am as conservative as most get, but I know this drug war is something we can not win.

Beautifully said.

[forevereagle]

Legalize marijuana... it's less harmful physically and socially than alcohol.

You didn't really address the social portion at all. Someone else drinking in my vicinity does not get me drunk, the same could not be said for marijuana.

Prove that it IS more harmful. That's what you are supposed to do in a free society. You need a reason to make (or keep) something illegal, not to make something legal.

But just because you asked:

Deaths from the two substances. There are hundreds of alcohol overdose deaths each year, yet there has never been a marijuana overdose death in history. The consumption of alcohol is also the direct cause of tens of thousands of deaths in the U.S. each year.

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control reported 20,687 “alcohol-induced deaths” (excluding accidents and homicides) in 2003. In the same year, the CDC has no reports of “marijuana-induced deaths.”

Source: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/alcohol.htm

In 2001, there were 331 alcohol overdose deaths and 0 marijuana overdose deaths.

Source: U.S. Centers for Disease Control (CDC). http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5337a2.htm

Alcohol is one of the most toxic drugs, and using just 10 times what one would use to get the desired effect can lead to death. Marijuana is one of – if not the – least toxic drugs, requiring thousands times the dose one would use to get the desired effect to lead to death. This “thousands times” is actually theoretical, since there has never been a recorded case of marijuana overdose.

Source: The American Scientist, the Magazine of Sigma Xi, the Scientific Research Society

Long-term marijuana use is far less harmful than long-term alcohol use.

Source: Iversen, Leslie. Current Opinion in Pharmacology. Volume 5, Issue 1, February 2005, Pages 69-72

There has never been a documented case of lung cancer in a marijuana-only smoker, and recent studies find that marijuana use is not associated with any type of cancer. The same cannot be said for alcohol, which has been found to contribute to a variety of long-term negative health effects, including cancers and cirrhosis of the liver.

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/25/AR2006052501729.html

Studies find alcohol use contributes to the likelihood of domestic violence and sexual assault and marijuana use does not.

Source: Fals-Stewart , William, James Golden, Julie A. Schumacher. Journal of Addictive Behaviors. 28, pages 1555-1574. Intimate partner violence and substance use: A longitudinal day-to-day examination. Research Institute on Addictions, University at Buffalo, State University of New York

Studies find alcohol use contributes to aggressive behavior and acts of violence, whereas marijuana use reduces the likelihood of violent behavior.

Source: Hoaken, Peter N.S., Sherry H. Stewart. Journal of Addictive Behaviors. 28, pages 1533-1554. Drugs of abuse and the elicitation of human aggressive behavior. Dept. of Psychology, University of Western Ontario. Dept. of of Psychiatry, Dalhousie University.

If it becomes legal, then it would be more likely to take place in public areas. Children would be exposed, both in public and in more homes across the country. Is there any data on the long term affects on children?

Question: if it becomes legalized, would there be restrictions and additives? This would mean that the cases of cancer from smoking would increase. I don't see that it would remain pure, since the government can't keep their hands out of things.

And what would happen to people who drive high? There would be a natural increase in the number of DUIs and related deaths.

I remain skeptical of the data presented in these studies as we don't know the frequency of use and the impact that has. Because this is a study of an illegal activity, there are users that do not come forward and let their results be known. There could be unknown side effects because we cannot get a more complete sample size and get a feel for all variables. I am not saying that the data is not valid, but that there could be more that we do not see because of a limited number of people and the response bias that is inherent to this type of study.

Edited March 23, 2010 by forevereagle