Death Toll Rises From Juarez B Day Party Massacre

[FirefightnRick]

http://www.elpasotimes.com/newupdated/ci_14311218

El Paso Times staff report

A 16-year-old boy has died, raising to 16 the death toll from Saturday's massacre at a birthday party in Juárez, Chihuahua state officials said Monday.

Our local drug task force officer here recently related a story to me that he and his department were told by a member of the U.S. Justice department how very close this Mexican violence situation is getting to Dallas. Well, if you live in El Paso, it's there already.

To me, this is an example of a people who live in fear and have no way to protect themselves. It's like getting an act of congress to own a gun legally in Mexico to protect yourself, and even then, it can't be a hand gun larger than a .38 or a hunting-length .12 gauge shotgun. How much worse will this get before the U.S. gets seriously involved, if ever?

Rick

Edited February 2, 2010 by FirefightnRick

[FirefightnRick]

US citizens shot dead by Mexican drug gangs

A consulate employee and her husband, both US citizens, were murdered while driving in the violent border city, which neighbours El Paso, Texas. Their baby daughter, who was sitting in the back seat, survived the attack.

Rick

[greenminer]

I would have to register to see the story from the FT. Here is something related from the EPTimes.

Officials expect arrest in consulate-linked killings

[hickoryhouse]

I once went to Juarez to grab a beer when I was in school and I haveto admit that even 8 years ago it wasnot a place that I would ever want to visit again. The fact that violence is getting worse, and that place was already not exactly what one would call safe, is an isue that is going to have to be tackled by the Mexican government very soon.There isn't much that the US can do about an unruly town in Mexico.

When that violence reaches into the States that creates a heck of a gray area. What does the Mexican government want us to do, what will they allow us to do. That is their territory and our expanding our influence into our sovereign ally's territory , even if it is to protect our citizens, is dangerous for our relationship with Mexico at best. This to me seems like a border protection issue on our side and an over problem for the Mexican government. We have the ability to make the Mexican government's life harder through economic means but outside of improved border patrol what can we really do?

[greenminer]

When that violence reaches into the States that creates a heck of a gray area. What does the Mexican government want us to do, what will they allow us to do. That is their territory and our expanding our influence into our sovereign ally's territory , even if it is to protect our citizens, is dangerous for our relationship with Mexico at best. This to me seems like a border protection issue on our side and an over problem for the Mexican government. We have the ability to make the Mexican government's life harder through economic means but outside of improved border patrol what can we really do?

When Mexican officials are hiding within our borders, I think we have some leverage if it ever comes to that.

[HoustonEagle]

I have always thought it an interesting dichotomy that one of the safest cities in America is located a literal stones throw from one of the most dangerous in the world.

[ntmeangreen11]

Only one answer, more and more tax money to this "drug war" that we are clearly winning.

Legalizing weed and trying to stop real drugs is the only logical choice. I also don't understand why we have given billions to Mexico's leaders when they are some of the most corrupt individuals in the world. I guarantee you most if not all of that money is funding, or helping the cartel kingpins.

It's 2010 people, let's take a note from California's book and move to legalize it, they will be voting in November to do this and I hope it passes and the drug warriors don't pull the "save the children" crap again. Taxing it and selling it to people over 21 will keep it away from children. You think drug dealers ID kids? Hell no. Over 50% of people want to see this happen and it's all just a matter of time before it's no longer taboo and the older generation who were subject to seeing refer madness get some sanity of their own and just get with the times. Marijuana is the cartels main cash cow and no one would smoke dirt mexiweed is it was legal and grown in the states and that's the truth.

I just have never understood how it's okay for a man to come home from a hard days work and drink 6 beers each night and tear his liver in half as opposed to smoking a bowl and going to sleep with virtually no ill effects...

[eulesseagle]

Over 17,000 deaths in Mexico since Prez Calderon took office.

http://laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=353644&CategoryId=14091

Of course all this is spilling into the United States with Mexican and Central American drug gangs roaming our streets, please do not be naive. Look at the most notorious, MS-13 with chapters all over the United States.

Personally, I could really care less if the drug gangs kill each other but what scares me more than anything else is the innocent toll it takes on unsuspecting families that are in the wrong place or who are mis-identified by the gangs.

One only has to read past stories of Mexican officials and their families moving to the United States to keep from getting killed....and most recently the police chief of Juarez.

[NTerock]

Personally, I could really care less if the drug gangs kill each other but what scares me more than anything else is the innocent toll it takes on unsuspecting families that are in the wrong place or who are mis-identified by the gangs.

Something really needs to be done. It's incredible how helpless many innocent families really are. My aunt and uncle own two very large construction related companies in Juarez and have done VERY well for themselves. A few months ago a gang kidnapped my Uncle's close friend thinking that is was my uncle and threatened to murder him if they weren't given $80,000 by the end of the day. Of course, my Aunt and Uncle were scared to go to the police (not that the police could/ would do anything) and were forced to pay the money. I won't get into the details but it seemed like something out of a movie.

Everything seemed to be okay with the family until a couple weeks ago. My Uncle's dad was shot and killed for no reason at all while walking down the street near the one of the company's main offices. Since then, my family has shut down both company's and pulled their children out of school for the time being.

I was in Juarez about a year ago and it was completely different than it was when I first visited in 04. No one stops at stop lights in fear of being robbed, we didn't leave the house once the sun went down, and security into my family's neighborhood had tripled. I honestly though everyone was over exaggerating just a little bit but now that my family is involved I see the true harm innocent people are caused. No more using the El Paso/ Juarez boarder for my family when we travel, that's for sure.

[Censored by Laurie]

Is it about time to open up the legalization discussion?

[FirefightnRick]

Is it about time to open up the legalization discussion?

Sure, why not? Now that the rape of the U.S. Constitution is in full swing....

Rick

Edited March 22, 2010 by FirefightnRick

[Censored by Laurie]

Sure, why not? Now that the rape of the U.S. Constitution is in full swing....

Rick

Anyone else care to contribute in a mature manner?

[KRAM1]

Very disturbing. If there were ever a good case for cross-border cooperation this seems to be it. However, several things are at play here. Not the least of which is that there is still a "culture" of "payoff" in Mexico that keeps many law enforcement, military and government officials simply "looking the other way" or actually abetting the narco gangs. Plus, with VERY strict gun laws, the average citizen has no real way of protecting themselves. This comes straight from my very good friend that has lived in Monterrey all his adult life and is very involved in local politics and business (the legal kind). He maintains a home in Laredo for his family as well as the family home in Monterrey.

On the other hand, for the drug culture and narco gangs to exist there has to be a market for the illegal drugs in the first place. I wonder how many who use illegal substances in the US (and elsewhere) understand that they are part of the problem and that they are helping to allow this violence to continue and to grow? Every "joint" adds to the problem. And, many of the buyers of these drugs are fairly well educated folks. They simply turn their heads and think "it's not me"...."I am only smoking a little weed for personal use...I'm not harming anyone". Really???? Think about it.

No, I am not blaming the U.S. or the "user" for this problem. Only indicating that part of the problem indeed lies north of the Rio Grande. If you buy or use drugs YOU ARE definitely part of the problem. Justify it anyway you would like if it makes you feel better about the role you play, but you ARE part of the problem.

Now, if you want to legalize marijuana, go for it. I am sure you could find plenty of folks to support your efforts and plenty of U.S. firms who are anxious to get into the business of legally selling the stuff. Personally, I would have no real problem with the legalization of marijuana as it could then be TAXED and regulated. You want lower healthcare costs, legalize this stuff and tax the heck out of it. Comparing a legal drug such as alcohol to an illegal one is a lame argument at best. Simple fact is...one is legal...one is not. If you can't understand that difference, well, no wonder you are part of the problem. Prohibition was repealed, go get active and change the laws to legalize marijuana if you want. If it's that great, then surley you can muster enough support to get the laws changed, right?

Mexico and the United States CAN solve this problem, but it will take some bold and perhaps controversial moves on the part of both countries working TOGETHER to solve the problem. Mexico is (I believe) our largest trading partner (at least for goods from Texas) and a very close neighbor who needs our help and support. However, the U.S. needs the help and support of Mexico as well.

I don't mind gang members killing other gang memebrs either, but that is not the only consequense of this narco war. It is shutting down businesses, closing schools, destroying towns, and resulting in the deaths of innocent people as well as the narco thugs.

The next time you or somone you know "lights up" give it some thought. The "buzz" you get may just be helping to destroy the lives of some innocent people in many different ways.

[Censored by Laurie]

On the other hand, for the drug culture and narco gangs to exist there has to be a market for the illegal drugs in the first place. I wonder how many who use illegal substances in the US (and elsewhere) understand that they are part of the problem and that they are helping to allow this violence to continue and to grow? Every "joint" adds to the problem. And, many of the buyers of these drugs are fairly well educated folks. They simply turn their heads and think "it's not me"...."I am only smoking a little weed for personal use...I'm not harming anyone". Really???? Think about it.

No, I am not blaming the U.S. or the "user" for this problem. Only indicating that part of the problem indeed lies north of the Rio Grande. If you buy or use drugs YOU ARE definitely part of the problem. Justify it anyway you would like if it makes you feel better about the role you play, but you ARE part of the problem.

Absolutely...but if you're anticipating that some feeling of guilt on the part of those who buy illegal drugs will in some way lead to a decline in illegal trafficking and thus a decline in this kind of violence, I'd say that is a rather naive opinion.

I am really curious though to hear from those who were either on the fence or fully against the legalization of drugs such as marijuana or cocaine...is seeing violence such as this, perpetrated against Americans, enough to at least revisit the discussion...especially considering that pragmatic rationale that says that the bulk of the this violence is the result of the illegality of the activity of drug trade/trafficking in our country?

[meangreendork]

Long but good post...

I agree fully. For some on the demand side, they may see what their high really costs, and it's more than the price on the dimebag. And for legalizing marijuana (and only that), yeah, I'm for that too. Legalize it, regulate it so it's safe, and tax it like tobacco and alcohol.

Anything so that innocent bystanders don't have to pay the real price so someone can get high in their living room.

[HoustonEagle]

Legalize it....

[UNT90]

Absolutely...but if you're anticipating that some feeling of guilt on the part of those who buy illegal drugs will in some way lead to a decline in illegal trafficking and thus a decline in this kind of violence, I'd say that is a rather naive opinion.

I am really curious though to hear from those who were either on the fence or fully against the legalization of drugs such as marijuana or cocaine...is seeing violence such as this, perpetrated against Americans, enough to at least revisit the discussion...especially considering that pragmatic rationale that says that the bulk of the this violence is the result of the illegality of the activity of drug trade/trafficking in our country?

Maybe the people who use these illegal drugs should consider the market that they are creating. Maybe they should evaluate their behavior, the behavior that causes innocent citizens caught in the crossfire to be senslessly murdered, and change that behavior. Why shouldn't they? Marihuana isn't an addictive substance, to hear the pro-legalization faction spin it, so why, then, don't the people who use marihuana just simple quit? Why would they support such brutal practices?

Because they care more about thier buzz than people dying in another country. Same for those who care more about thier coke, speed, x, or smack.

This is something you never hear the pro-legalization people address. It's just so much easier to cave in and legalize drugs than it is to take a stand for what is right and tell drug users that there is a consequence for thier actions.

Every single person on this board who uses illegal drugs needs to think about the death regimes that they are supporting before taking that next puff, snort or injection.

But they won't.

Human Nature.

Edited March 22, 2010 by UNT90

[TheTastyGreek]

I'm going to start by saying that this isn't meant as a joke; I know tone is tough to interpret online and I generally aim for humor, but I'm not trying to make a cheap joke. And I'll point out that I really don't have much of a rooting interest in this concept. As most people who have met me already know, I don't even drink.

But, suppose I have a taste for something that generally gets produced in a Latin American country. Bananas, for the sake of example.

If I have to import the bananas I eat from Belize, but Belize doesn't have any traffic lights because of a governmental decision to not bother regulating vehicle intersections... There will probably be a lot of car accidents in Belize. Many of them will involve banana trucks. Many of them will cause the deaths of people uninvolved in the banana trade.

Now, suppose that the government of Belize makes it a policy to arrest anyone who tries to manually direct traffic at any intersection that banana trucks drive through.

Who really bears the ethical responsibility for the deaths of any people uninvolved in the banana trade? Me? Or the government of Belize?

[Quoner]

I'm going to start by saying that this isn't meant as a joke; I know tone is tough to interpret online and I generally aim for humor, but I'm not trying to make a cheap joke. And I'll point out that I really don't have much of a rooting interest in this concept. As most people who have met me already know, I don't even drink.

But, suppose I have a taste for something that generally gets produced in a Latin American country. Bananas, for the sake of example.

If I have to import the bananas I eat from Belize, but Belize doesn't have any traffic lights because of a governmental decision to not bother regulating vehicle intersections... There will probably be a lot of car accidents in Belize. Many of them will involve banana trucks. Many of them will cause the deaths of people uninvolved in the banana trade.

Now, suppose that the government of Belize makes it a policy to arrest anyone who tries to manually direct traffic at any intersection that banana trucks drive through.

Who really bears the ethical responsibility for the deaths of any people uninvolved in the banana trade? Me? Or the government of Belize?

I started typing something like this, then powered down halfway through. I have no interest in smoking pot and am a social drinker (outside of Hot Springs). But I agree with banana pants on this one.

[Censored by Laurie]

Maybe

But they won't.

That's the crux, though. And because of these four words I don't think that the remained of your post, all very rational, can be used as a valid argument against legalization.

As to not hearing this at a "pro-legalization" rally...that is all you're going to hear. Drugs have been, are and always will be a part of American culture...laws, moral lecturing and violence have not and will not ever change this.

There is a very clear cut route towards at worse lessening the violence...

[TheTastyGreek]

I started typing something like this, then powered down halfway through. I have no interest in smoking pot and am a social drinker (outside of Hot Springs). But I agree with banana pants on this one.

Yeah, I went back and forth on it and finally decided to go with a one-and-done.

I think the political threads here would be a lot less "make me want to stab myself and/or others in the face" if they wrapped up more quickly. And everyone realized in advance that half the people are going to disagree with them, and pretty much nobody is going to change their mind.

[MeanGreenTexan]

I'm going to start by saying that this isn't meant as a joke; I know tone is tough to interpret online and I generally aim for humor, but I'm not trying to make a cheap joke. And I'll point out that I really don't have much of a rooting interest in this concept. As most people who have met me already know, I don't even drink.

But, suppose I have a taste for something that generally gets produced in a Latin American country. Bananas, for the sake of example.

If I have to import the bananas I eat from Belize, but Belize doesn't have any traffic lights because of a governmental decision to not bother regulating vehicle intersections... There will probably be a lot of car accidents in Belize. Many of them will involve banana trucks. Many of them will cause the deaths of people uninvolved in the banana trade.

Now, suppose that the government of Belize makes it a policy to arrest anyone who tries to manually direct traffic at any intersection that banana trucks drive through.

Who really bears the ethical responsibility for the deaths of any people uninvolved in the banana trade? Me? Or the government of Belize?

I like this analogy.

Now, bring in the fact that the brunt of the clientele for these bananas lives in the United States and the Belize govt. blames us for some of their problems. The U.S. government has a responsibility to protect their citizens and many nations look to us to help protect their citizens as well. Should we give the Belize govt. funds and education on how to prevent these banana truck accidents, or leave Belize alone and let these accidents continue to happen?

[UNT90]

That's the crux, though. And because of these four words I don't think that the remained of your post, all very rational, can be used as a valid argument against legalization.

I think, as a society, you head down the road (or, in this case, much, much further down the road) of demise when you make a compromise as big as this. Not to bring another issue into this, but think about how much socialized medicine will have to deal with the addiction if you legalize these drugs. Then it does affect everyone in the county, because everyone will be covered for every side effect related to drug use by the simple fact that drug use is sanctioned by the federal government. That means non-drug users will be fitting the bill for those that choose to destroy thier body. I won't even get into the whole prescription drug issue and how legalization will affect that market.

Do we tell young parents that it is OK to do methamphetamine in thier own home while raising a newborn? Will there be a federal observer there with young meth head mom to make sure she doesn't breast feed, thereby insuring that the infant does not become addicted to methamphetamine? Will there be a new law that any drug addicted new mother must take random drug tests? Who pays for these drug tests? Me and you.

Will the federal government sanctioned strength of methamphetamine be to this young couple's taste? I promise you it wont. I promise you there will be an illegal market to satisfy this young couple's, and many others, methamphetamine needs, and I promise you that market will come from Mexico. Same with every other drug.

If young parents are drug addicts, how do you get the small, infant child away from that parent if what that parent is doing is not illegal? No CPS involvement needed because the behavior is sanctioned by the federal government. Methamphetamine users have parental rights, too.

The banana analogy is like comparing apples to... well, bananas. There are so many more far reaching consequences of legalization than there is of eating a banana. For brevity sake, I just touched on a few.

It's the easy way out, folks.

Edited March 22, 2010 by UNT90

[UNTflyer]

Legalize marijuana... it's less harmful physically and socially than alcohol.

[Quoner]

The banana analogy is like comparing apples to... well, bananas. There are so many more far reaching consequences of legalization than there is of eating a banana. For brevity sake, I just touched on a few.

It's the easy way out, folks.

Is it like comparing meth to marijuana?

Seriously, why'd you switch up the drug in question? I think most folks are making this a pot issue only. Is there a Mexican meth market brewing because all of Oklahoma, Kansas, Arkansas and Alabama suddenly found new sources of fun? As KRAM said, we tax and control alcohol and cigs despite their destructive tendencies, and we get to tax and benefit from the money. Marijuana is a gray area to me; meth isn't.