Another Great Article From Leonard Pitts

[SilverEagle]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/editorialsopinion/2010867326_pitts24.html

[UNTFan23]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/editorialsopinion/2010867326_pitts24.html

Reminds me of the scene from Dogma:

[silent Bob kills Azrael with Cardinal Glick's golf club]

Bethany: Glick's the kind of asshole that would bless his own clubs for a better game.

[KRAM1]

Does seem a bit "out there", but these are the absolute best gun sights in the world. Our soldiers are much better prepared to face the enemy with these sights than without. That being said, I do think it to be a very good idea to remove the verses from the gun sights. I would not want to give our enemy any "bulletin board" material so to speak to use against the coalition forces where ever they may be. Interesting, too, that no one noticed for many many years. Must have been hidden very well.

I did hear a bit of a counter argument to the issue the other day on the radio while driving to work. Went something like...well, if you are going to shoot at any of God's creatures...man or animal...isn't it a good thing to have the scripture top of mind? The thought being that you never kill/shoot man nor animal without serious thought and darn good reason...such as to protect life, liberty, etc., and to shoot/kill for food. Shooting to kill should never be taken lightly and this gentlemen was saying that perhaps that was the point of the verses. To remind folks of the serious nature of what they were doing.

Not judging one way or the other, but there is a side to the story that it was not done to be offensive to anyone. The guy walked and talked his faith, was proud of it and produced a great product. He certainly "risked" a good bit placing the scripture verses on the sights. In this day, that is a pretty risky business decision I would think. Especially if one of your largest clients was the US government...knowing, of course, how the PC thing could well come back to bite in a big way.

Bottom line. I am personally glad to see the verses removed, but am also glad to see the best sights in the world being sold to the US government for our military...and for that of our allies. I wonder if the Israeli army used the sights as well. That would be "interesting as well, would it not?

[Shuke-D]

I did hear a bit of a counter argument to the issue the other day on the radio while driving to work. Went something like...well, if you are going to shoot at any of God's creatures...man or animal...isn't it a good thing to have the scripture top of mind? The thought being that you never kill/shoot man nor animal without serious thought and darn good reason...such as to protect life, liberty, etc., and to shoot/kill for food. Shooting to kill should never be taken lightly and this gentlemen was saying that perhaps that was the point of the verses. To remind folks of the serious nature of what they were doing.

Agreed in the sense that perhaps the people who make decisions to send our troops in to places should keep such matters at the top of their minds. However, I also think that suicide bombers in Gaza, not to mention the 9-11 hijackers, had their scriptures thoroughly at the top of their thoughts as they, so to speak, pulled the trigger. A very, very sharp double-edged knife there. One way or the other, someone's getting cut.

[SilverEagle]

This is not a PC issue. It's a "we're-over-here-to-protect-our-country-not-to-kill-muslims" issue. Putting Bible references on our military equipment is the surest way to fan the fanatical flames even higher, and convince the the neutral muslims out there that this is indeed another crusade.

What the hell was our government thinking.

[FirefightnRick]

This is not a PC issue.

Yes it is.

Rick

[Censored by Laurie]

Yes it is.

Rick

Bohemond I of Antioch agrees.

[UNT90]

This is not a PC issue. It's a "we're-over-here-to-protect-our-country-not-to-kill-muslims" issue. Putting Bible references on our military equipment is the surest way to fan the fanatical flames even higher, and convince the the neutral muslims out there that this is indeed another crusade.

What the hell was our government thinking.

The people we are at war against consider this a religious war. Removing some scripture from gun sights won't cause them to lay down their arms and suddenly realize what good guys we really are. Same thing for the people of Iraq/Afganistan. The ones who like us could give a flip about our gun sights. I'm pretty sure they know the vast majority of us are Christian. If anything, they might respect the fact that we actually have a God in our society, since the militants are constantly telling them we are Godless creatures.

This county was founded on Christian values. Maybe if we embraced them instead of doing everything possible to outlaw them , many things in and outside of our country would be better.

Edited January 27, 2010 by UNT90

[SilverEagle]

The people we are at war against consider this a religious war. Removing some scripture from gun sights won't cause them to lay down their arms and suddenly realize what good guys we really are. Same thing for the people of Iraq/Afganistan. The ones who like us could give a flip about our gun sights. I'm pretty sure they know the vast majority of us are Christian. If anything, they might respect the fact that we actually have a God in our society, since the militants are constantly telling them we are Godless creatures.

This county was founded on Christian values. Maybe if we embraced them instead of doing everything possible to outlaw them , many things in and outside of our country would be better.

Christian values? At the risk of this thread getting way out of hand, I would suggest that you talk to Native Americans about our founding fathers' "Christian values". What ever happened to the separation of church and state? Which is one of the foundations that our "founding fathers" instituted in our government?

BUT the issue at hand is that putting bible verses on our military equipment makes this (in the eyes of the muslims) a HOLY WAR. And there is no way we can ever win one of those. It'll only give them more energy to go on...and on...and on......

[UNTFan23]

BUT the issue at hand is that putting bible verses on our military equipment makes this (in the eyes of the muslims) a HOLY WAR. And there is no way we can ever win one of those. It'll only give them more energy to go on...and on...and on......

When did this manufacturer start putting bible verses on its gun sights?

[FirefightnRick]

What ever happened to the separation of church and state? Which is one of the foundations that our "founding fathers" instituted in our government?

I didn't know our founding fathers were still alive in 1947?

Rick

[SilverEagle]

When did this manufacturer start putting bible verses on its gun sights?

From the article.

"It seems there was this fellow named Glyn Bindon, who used weapons of war to speak for his faith.

Bindon, who lost his life in a 2003 plane crash, was the founder of Trijicon, a Michigan company that has a $600 million contract to provide gun sights to the U.S. military.

Apparently he had a policy, which survived him, of inscribing coded references to Bible verses on the gun sights he manufactured for high-powered rifles used by U.S. service personnel. So that, for instance, one sight is marked, 2COR4:6, i.e., 2 Corinthians 4:6: "God said, 'Let light shine out of darkness.' He made his light shine in our hearts. It shows us the light of God's glory in the face of Christ.""

So it would seem that it went on well before 2003. To be fair, this has been discontinued, but how many gun sights are still there being used by military personel.

[UNT90]

Christian values? At the risk of this thread getting way out of hand, I would suggest that you talk to Native Americans about our founding fathers' "Christian values". What ever happened to the separation of church and state? Which is one of the foundations that our "founding fathers" instituted in our government?

BUT the issue at hand is that putting bible verses on our military equipment makes this (in the eyes of the muslims) a HOLY WAR. And there is no way we can ever win one of those. It'll only give them more energy to go on...and on...and on......

Leaving all the political crap out of it, do you seriously think that the militant muslims will see this as more of a religious war than they already do because of inscriptions on gun sights? Really? When just about every muslim suicide bomber yells "God is Great" in Muslim just before detonating themselves? When the hijackers of 9/11 yelled "God is Great" in Arabic into the cockpit recorders before ramming planes into the World Trade Centers (which, by the way, were free of bible inscriptions)?

I think the other side already sees this as a religious war. That's the only way they can sell it to their recruits.

Yes, Christian values. Bad people do bad things in the name of religion all the time (see your militant muslims), but that doesn't mean the religious philosophy is

itself bad or perverse.

Wake up. The people we are at war with ALREADY consider this a Religious war. The inscriptions are really harmless and mean every little, either way, to what is going on in this war.

Why do you have such a problem with this? Just asking.

[SilverEagle]

Leaving all the political crap out of it, do you seriously think that the militant muslims will see this as more of a religious war than they already do because of inscriptions on gun sights? Really? When just about every muslim suicide bomber yells "God is Great" in Muslim just before detonating themselves? When the hijackers of 9/11 yelled "God is Great" in Arabic into the cockpit recorders before ramming planes into the World Trade Centers (which, by the way, were free of bible inscriptions)?

I think the other side already sees this as a religious war. That's the only way they can sell it to their recruits.

Yes, Christian values. Bad people do bad things in the name of religion all the time (see your militant muslims), but that doesn't mean the religious philosophy is

itself bad or perverse.

Wake up. The people we are at war with ALREADY consider this a Religious war. The inscriptions are really harmless and mean every little, either way, to what is going on in this war.

Why do you have such a problem with this? Just asking.

Because as a student of history, some of the bloodiest and long lasting wars have been over religion. At the beginning, MODERATE muslims didn't see us as crusaders, but when we put Bible verses on our weaponry, we could cause them to think otherwise....thus creating more troops for the fanatics.

The other reason is one of the quotes in my signature line(s).....which I really believe.

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."

-Sinclair Lewis

[Censored by Laurie]

Leaving all the political crap out of it, do you seriously think that the militant muslims will see this as more of a religious war than they already do because of inscriptions on gun sights? Really? When just about every muslim suicide bomber yells "God is Great" in Muslim just before detonating themselves? When the hijackers of 9/11 yelled "God is Great" in Arabic into the cockpit recorders before ramming planes into the World Trade Centers (which, by the way, were free of bible inscriptions)?

The issue isn't the current combatants, but rather...oh lets call them the "swing voters", those who currently don't support alQueda...its means or its goals, but those who also already see our presence as an occupation and would further view our bringing of religion into this war as us too embracing it as a "religios war."

It wouldn't do anything to further motivate al Queda...but rather it does run the risk of alienating potential supporters of our efforts.

Also, am I the only person who has their post formating bar going directly across the middle of text box?

[KRAM1]

Let's talk for a second about this "separation of church and state thing" as it gets so very confused and misstated quite often. The fact is, this provision refers ONLY to the establishment of a state...read national...religion (such as was in place in England at the time). In fact, several of our original states did in fact have official state religions...Mass being one who was probably the strictest about it all. The bible verses on the rifle sights has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Constitution or the "separation" clause. Although, I will admit, that this provision gets so turned on its head so often that I would imagine that the vast majority of folks (including Congressmen, Senators and Presidents) have no real idea what it was originally intended to do. Even the courts have misinterpreted the provision.

Not saying I am a great Constitutional scholar or anything like that, but those that are have stated this fact many times....the confusion over the intent of the "separation" provision that is.

Whether it is good or bad, whether it incites our enemies or not, etc. to have the verses on the sites, is, in fact, NOT an issue of "separation of church and state".

The framers of our great Constitution must turn over in their graves on a regular basis due to all the misinterpretation of the great document they crafted. Either that or they are laughing their rear ends off on a regular basis.

[SilverEagle]

The issue isn't the current combatants, but rather...oh lets call them the "swing voters", those who currently don't support alQueda...its means or its goals, but those who also already see our presence as an occupation and would further view our bringing of religion into this war as us too embracing it as a "religios war."

It wouldn't do anything to further motivate al Queda...but rather it does run the risk of alienating potential supporters of our efforts.

Also, am I the only person who has their post formating bar going directly across the middle of text box?

Or, from a secular/business point of view, it's better to work smart than just hard.

[Shuke-D]

The people we are at war against consider this a religious war. Removing some scripture from gun sights won't cause them to lay down their arms and suddenly realize what good guys we really are. Same thing for the people of Iraq/Afganistan. The ones who like us could give a flip about our gun sights. I'm pretty sure they know the vast majority of us are Christian. If anything, they might respect the fact that we actually have a God in our society, since the militants are constantly telling them we are Godless creatures.

This county was founded on Christian values. Maybe if we embraced them instead of doing everything possible to outlaw them , many things in and outside of our country would be better.

In a weird way: This.

Not that I agree, but you're being completely honest about it. If we can all agree that the inscriptions are essentially a form of advertising of our intentions/values (I actually think both sides can agree on this, just not on the effect of it), then I posit that what we have here is more of a brand-saturation issue in regards to marketing. Those tiny little inscriptions are hard to see, and are designed to look like serial numbers.

Instead, let's just go All In and dress up a bunker-buster bomb in an Uncle Sam jacket, give it angel wings and a halo. And when it's dropped, blast Handel's Messiah oratorio, with Toby Keith singing principal tenor, and have Robert Duvall riding it all the way down yelling "I love the smell of Napalm in the morning." I think the message would be more clear then.

[SilverEagle]

In a weird way: This.

Not that I agree, but you're being completely honest about it. If we can all agree that the inscriptions are essentially a form of advertising of our intentions/values (I actually think both sides can agree on this, just not on the effect of it), then I posit that what we have here is more of a brand-saturation issue in regards to marketing. Those tiny little inscriptions are hard to see, and are designed to look like serial numbers.

Instead, let's just go All In and dress up a bunker-buster bomb in an Uncle Sam jacket, give it angel wings and a halo. And when it's dropped, blast Handel's Messiah oratorio, with Toby Keith singing principal tenor, and have Robert Duvall riding it all the way down yelling "I love the smell of Napalm in the morning." I think the message would be more clear then.

I do like your style.

[FirefightnRick]

The framers of our great Constitution must turn over in their graves on a regular basis due to all the misinterpretation of the great document they crafted.

Especially considering the fact that Hugo Black, a lawyer for the Ku Klux Klan, a direct enemy of the Catholic Church and Roosevelt's first Supreme Court appointee wrote the 5-4 dissent that became what most libs today refer to when they attack religion.

Read here, from the middle of page 40 on down to page 47.

Rick

[UNT90]

Because as a student of history, some of the bloodiest and long lasting wars have been over religion. At the beginning, MODERATE muslims didn't see us as crusaders, but when we put Bible verses on our weaponry, we could cause them to think otherwise....thus creating more troops for the fanatics.

The other reason is one of the quotes in my signature line(s).....which I really believe.

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."

-Sinclair Lewis

Moderate Muslims have long ago made the decision. It's not like we invaded Iraq or Afganistan yesterday. And like I said, a truely moderate Muslim will respect the fact that we have our own religious beliefs.

It's not like we are going on a crusade here. Those in the war zone known that. Those not in the war zone have long ago decided on which side of the fence they wish to play.

People (or countries) respect you when you stand for something.

Was Lewis sober when he wrote that

Edited January 27, 2010 by UNT90