Composer Of "glory To The Green And White" Was...

FirefightnRick · January 20, 2010

UNT library's music collection strikes chord with scholars

An early contributor was Julia Smith, a distinguished American composer and an alumna of the UNT music department. As a teenager, Smith composed the school's alma mater, "Glory to the Green and White," somewhat to her later professional embarrassment, Martin said.

I've never heard about this before in my life. I sent an inquiry to the university asking if there was any merit to this, or if it was simply Mr. Martin's opinion? Either way, it had no place in this article. And I understand the author could have placed it there himself. If so, what a jackass! If it's true though, why in hell would you say something like that to a reporter about the Alma Mater of your employer? Why? If it is true that's dirty laundry you don't share with the rest of the world.

Good grief! Pisses me off.

Rick

CaribbeanGreen · January 20, 2010

Eh. Steven Tyler composed Dream On in his middle teens and said the same thing. One of the greatest rock songs ever penned.

I'm sure Alma Maters aren't generally considered great compositions by music scholars. Doesn't change that it's ours. We can still be proud of it, whatever its creator thinks. Appreciate the honesty if nothing else.

eulessismore · January 20, 2010

I found myself fascinated (don't really know why) by your question. To me, the crux of the matter isn't, "why did the librarian report this", but "why did the composer feel this way, if she did". I would suggest that someone trying to be taken seriously by the New York City musical world, especially those involved in "serious" music, as a composer of operas would supposedly aspire to, might spend some time working to overcome the image of being a woman from a small Texas city, and graduate of what was probably a little known music program at the time (1930). I have to think she considered herself as somewhat of an advocate for female composers, and recently, a woman criticized a prominent New York (from the Herald Tribune) music critic for his differing treatment of women (going on for some length about Julia Smith) and men composers. Hey, you may not want to hear all that much about feminist struggles, but maybe you could have a little empathy for a Denton women coming of age in the 1930's and trying to make her mark in the larger world, who might not want her earlier, "less serious" compositions to be fodder for such critics. Here's the link to the criticism of said critic:

Critic criticized for his criticism of Julia Smith, among others

But Rick, have you ever been at a concert, such as I and my wife have been (or at any public event for that matter), when the performer told the audience that (in so many words), if they had any child wishing to pursue music, that, just down the road in Denton, they could get as good an education as anywhere in the world"? The guy who said that, whose website I'll link here is Rhett Butler, who I heard saying that at a concert he gave (brilliantly) at the City of Euless public library. This is a fellow who does not shy away from his love for North Texas and Denton (one of his songs is "A Drive to Denton"). Here's the link:

Rhett Butler, UNT music grad's website

Hey, once your at Rhett's website, maybe you could order a box set of his music (only if you like excellent instrumental guitar). All the proceeds are going to pay the expenses for his brother's (successful) fight against cancer. And don't forget to check out the "tour dates"; he'll be playing at Unity Church of Arlington Jan. 31, and again at the Euless Public Library of Feb. 8; he is a real joy to see and hear live.

Well, all that seems a long way from North Texas football, but you asked a question.

Edited January 20, 2010 by eulessismore

SilverEagle · January 20, 2010

Eh. Steven Tyler composed Dream On in his middle teens and said the same thing. One of the greatest rock songs ever penned.
I'm sure Alma Maters aren't generally considered great compositions by music scholars. Doesn't change that it's ours. We can still be proud of it, whatever its creator thinks. Appreciate the honesty if nothing else.

Good example CG! My thoughts exactly.

eulessismore · January 20, 2010

Eh. Steven Tyler composed Dream On in his middle teens and said the same thing. One of the greatest rock songs ever penned.
I'm sure Alma Maters aren't generally considered great compositions by music scholars. Doesn't change that it's ours. We can still be proud of it, whatever its creator thinks. Appreciate the honesty if nothing else.

And, the author died in 1989, so, as far as my knowledge of intellectual property rights goes (not very far), that makes it public domain, it's ours baby! Also, the house where the ghost of Julia Smith's mother resided has been demolished, so neither Julia Smith or her mother's ghost can keep us from enjoying it! Link to the ghost story, for fans of the paranormal:

The legend of Smith Hall: Julia's mother's ghost

Hey, when it comes to performing artists, are they offended to be considered "eccentric" or "weirdoes"?

Chrisattsu · January 20, 2010

I can't begin to know what she was thinking, but I have had moments like this in my career.

My academic training is in the field of American History. I am young, but the past decade has been spent doing research in dusty archives and writing (lots of writing...). Much like Ms. Smith, I find myself "professionally embarrassed" whenever I look at some of my earlier writing samples.

Perhaps is not ashamed of the fact that she composed the song, but rather became more critical of it after she viewed it through an experienced, professional lens later in life.

Edited January 20, 2010 by Chrisattsu

KRAM1 · January 20, 2010

I am in the "camp" who wishes the guy would have "thought a bit" before making that comment. I see nothing to be gained in an otherwise very positive interview regarding UNT from making that comment. I am sure the guy did not mean it to be disrespectful to UNT in any way, but it really was something he might should have re-considered. Unless he can point me to a quote from the author, I just wonder how he knows that she was "embarrassed" by being the author? Seems to me that one might take some sense of pride in writing the song that eventually becomes your university's Alma mater. Maybe that's just me. I guess my interest is in the fact that the guy, who has earned his living at the University for a very long time, thought that would be an appropriate statement? Goes to mindset I suppose. Too bad.

The other interesting point is why UNT doesn't turn this into a real museum open to the public? They seem to have enough $$$$ to open an art gallery on the square...seems to me they could find the $$$ to open this up to the public as one of the best if not THE best and well stocked music library in the nation. Would be a great way to "display" the university and perhaps even raise some additional funding.

CMJ · January 20, 2010

People who pursue creative endeavors are rarely pleased with their own work. ESPECIALLY looking back on something one did years later. My favorite example of this is Gustav Holst, who penned The Planets. A truly beloved musical suite - and he really came to dislike it as he aged, thinking it one of his lesser works.

And yet it is his most famous.

I know from experience with my stuff. Hell, I'm rarely pleased with much of anything I write, creative or reviews(which I've done in the past), or even posts on GMG. I think it's just a mindset that alot of people can have.

Edited January 20, 2010 by CMJ

adman · January 20, 2010

People who pursue creative endeavors are rarely pleased with their own work. ESPECIALLY looking back on something one did years later. My favorite example of this is Gustav Holst, who penned The Planets. A truly beloved musical suite - and he really came to dislike it as he aged, thinking it one of his lesser works.
And yet it is his most famous.
I know from experience with my stuff. Hell, I'm rarely pleased with much of anything I write, creative or reviews(which I've done in the past), or even posts on GMG. I think it's just a mindset that alot of people can have.

Another example - Arthur Dove was an American Abstract Expressionist who buried most of his paintings due to his disdain for them. Creatives are a kooky bunch.

eulessismore · January 20, 2010

People who pursue creative endeavors are rarely pleased with their own work. ESPECIALLY looking back on something one did years later. My favorite example of this is Gustav Holst, who penned The Planets. A truly beloved musical suite - and he really came to dislike it as he aged, thinking it one of his lesser works.
And yet it is his most famous.
I know from experience with my stuff. Hell, I'm rarely pleased with much of anything I write, creative or reviews(which I've done in the past), or even posts on GMG. I think it's just a mindset that alot of people can have.

None of us, whether GMG members, UNT football coaches, or a teenaged composers of her college's alma maters turned famous composer and advocate for women composers, should rest on past accomplishments. By the way, here's the TSHA online bio for Julia Smith (as many of you know, the Texas State Historical Association is now headquartered at UNT):

Julia Smith Bio from TSHA

eulessismore · January 20, 2010

Another example - Arthur Dove was an American Abstract Expressionist who buried most of his paintings due to his disdain for them. Creatives are a kooky bunch.

Those who aren't kooky seem even more so by comparison with other creatives. Maybe this Julia Smith had a good attribute: the ability to be her own critic.

FirefightnRick · January 20, 2010

I am in the "camp" who wishes the guy would have "thought a bit" before making that comment. I see nothing to be gained in an otherwise very positive interview regarding UNT from making that comment.

That's the point. There was nothing gained by adding that comment, even if it were true!!!!! The curator works for the University of North Texas, a university with proud traditions. Why even remotely try and spin it in a negative light? It makes no sense? If it is so common for composers and artists to criticise themselves, as has been so clearly stated here in brushing this issue aside, then where's the critiques of the rest of the artists mentioned in the article? The guy discusses countless works, yet he chooses to jab at the ONE thing that most here have pride in.

You folks so easily dismissing this completely amaze me. This is one of the reasons other schools like Tech and SMU and others make fun of North Texas. This why they jab at us over on the Ticket. They all know so many here will lay down and take it without raising an eyebrow. This is why outsiders have been able to come here before and change our traditions to suit their own needs. And most importantly, this is why our alumni association has NO POWER to protect those traditions.

Rick

Edited January 20, 2010 by FirefightnRick

CMJ · January 20, 2010

Julia Smith wrote it when she was like 19 years old Rick. She went onto pen some highly regarded compositions in the classical field. She never criticized the school, and seems to have been quite proud of going here in her later years. You think Billy Shakeaspeare liked stuff he wrote at 19 after he wrote Othello or Kind Lear? He was probably embarrassed as well.

The curator probably shouldn't have said anything, and you did ask why he mentioned Smith's feelings and no one elses(or he might've and they weren't printed). That's a fair question. I am gonna guess that he might just not know how others might have felt about their own work, but he did for her because she mentioned it to someone.

Edited January 20, 2010 by CMJ

eulessismore · January 20, 2010

That's the point. There was nothing gained by adding that comment, even if it were true!!!!! The curator works for the University of North Texas, a university with proud traditions. Why even remotely try and spin it in a negative light? It makes no sense? If it is so common for composers and artists to criticise themselves, as has been so clearly stated here in brushing this issue aside, then where's the critiques of the rest of the artists mentioned in the article? The guy discusses countless works, yet he chooses to jab at the ONE thing that most here have pride in.
You folks so easily dismissing this completely amaze me. This is one of the reasons other schools like Tech and SMU and others make fun of North Texas. This why they jab at us over on the Ticket. They all know so many here will lay down and take it without raising an eyebrow. This is why outsiders have been able to come here before and change our traditions to suit their own needs. And most importantly, this is why our alumni association has NO POWER to protect those traditions.
Rick

Well, I think you've hit on something; she and the alma mater she wrote are much more recognizable than the rest. Obviously Leon Breeden is a hero to many of us (I can remember his conducting the North Texas Men's Chorus, of which I was then a member, in a performance of a song written by UNT music school grad "Blue" Lou Marini). Still, although he was a musical legend as a band director and jazz educator, Julia Smith was a creative force, and "Glory to the Green and White" is a tune that becomes burned into our individual and collective memories. Maybe my outrageometer is set at a different level than yours, but I don't see Morris Martin as being the story here; the story is North Texas Music; that article you reference in the DMN is the only one I've seen there which has produced only positive responses, and only positive feedback to those responses. Am I going to let what I see as a throwaway line by a guy who was otherwise just kind of talking in an encyclopedic manner about a library's collection ruin my happiness about seeing my college get some highly favorable and well received publicity (it took Kram1 to point that out by the way)? No. Maybe you could send a letter to Mr. Martin and ask him why he said what he did about Julia Smith. His music degrees are from North Texas (yes, people with North Texas degrees, especially music degrees, do get hired at North Texas), and he has worked in his present position since 1971, so he probably has some feelings for our school.

Rick, I've said this to my wife, who said "good Luck with that", and I'm sure I'll say it again; my goal for North Texas football is for it to become as world class as North Texas music. By the way, did you check out that website for Rhett Butler?

FirefightnRick · January 20, 2010

By the way, did you check out that website for Rhett Butler?

Yes, thank you.

Rick

untjim1995 · January 20, 2010

You folks so easily dismissing this completely amaze me. This is one of the reasons other schools like Tech and SMU and others make fun of North Texas. This why they jab at us over on the Ticket. They all know so many here will lay down and take it without raising an eyebrow. This is why outsiders have been able to come here before and change our traditions to suit their own needs. And most importantly, this is why our alumni association has NO POWER to protect those traditions.
Rick

Folks make fun of us because the number of people who actually care about UNT Athletics probably makes up less than 1% of all former students, current students, faculty, residents of Denton, and just local sports fans in the Metroplex. Just because the woman who composed the fight song of the university grew to dislike her work later in life is not something people on The Ticket, over on the Hilltop, out in West Texas, or anywhere else will make fun of us for. They will, however, continue to laugh at us as we go 2-10 on the football field because we cannot pay for anything more than a HS coach or when they see that we are playing conference games against with teams known as Florida International and Western Kentucky while Tech plays against Texas or OU and SMU is playing Houston or Southern Miss. They also laugh at a school with 32,000+ students that plays in a toilet of a stadium, and when they finally replace it, the plan to replace it is SMALLER than said toilet. I am not sure what the alumni association could do to protect any traditions from changing, especially when the university itself changes the color and mascot of the school every three years or so. There are many things that we get made fun of for, as I mentioned earlier. As far as the composer of the alma mater not being thrilled with her work later in life, that will rank somewhere around #148 on the list for things to laugh at UNT for. As a matter of fact, I openly ask any and all non-UNT fans to make fun of my alma mater for this. Please, seriously, do this. Whatever you do, though, please don't mention football.

eulessismore · January 20, 2010

Folks make fun of us because the number of people who actually care about UNT Athletics probably makes up less than 1% of all former students, current students, faculty, residents of Denton, and just local sports fans in the Metroplex. Just because the woman who composed the fight song of the university grew to dislike her work later in life is not something people on The Ticket, over on the Hilltop, out in West Texas, or anywhere else will make fun of us for. They will, however, continue to laugh at us as we go 2-10 on the football field because we cannot pay for anything more than a HS coach or when they see that we are playing conference games against with teams known as Florida International and Western Kentucky while Tech plays against Texas or OU and SMU is playing Houston or Southern Miss. They also laugh at a school with 32,000+ students that plays in a toilet of a stadium, and when they finally replace it, the plan to replace it is SMALLER than said toilet. I am not sure what the alumni association could do to protect any traditions from changing, especially when the university itself changes the color and mascot of the school every three years or so. There are many things that we get made fun of for, as I mentioned earlier. As far as the composer of the alma mater not being thrilled with her work later in life, that will rank somewhere around #148 on the list for things to laugh at UNT for. As a matter of fact, I openly ask any and all non-UNT fans to make fun of my alma mater for this. Please, seriously, do this. Whatever you do, though, please don't mention football.

I think you've pretty much summed things up. I honestly think said high school coach would probably make a good person to be head of an athletic foundation for North Texas, like David McWilliams became for UT. Fundraising is the key to our future.

Green Guy Bass · January 20, 2010

Mountain?....Nope just a mole hill. Sorry Rick.

eulessismore · January 20, 2010

Mountain?....Nope just a mole hill. Sorry Rick.

Oh, it's a mountain...of good publicity for the music program. Football wise, hardly a blip.

drex · January 20, 2010

I know Morris Martin personally. He is not the sort of person who would intentionally do anything to degrade UNT. It was merely an observation that he made that probably is being way too amplified. Should he have been quoted? Maybe, as it was an interesting observation. Maybe not if the DMN writer was compelled to not write anything the least bit hurtful or interesting.

eulessismore · January 20, 2010

I know Morris Martin personally. He is not the sort of person who would intentionally do anything to degrade UNT. It was merely an observation that he made that probably is being way too amplified. Should he have been quoted? Maybe, as it was an interesting observation. Maybe not if the DMN writer was compelled to not write anything the least bit hurtful or interesting.

My experience as a public servant is that once a journalist gets into your workplace, you never really know how anything will come out; anything may sound harmless enough, but if context is removed, any statement can sound completely different than intended.

Green Dozer · January 20, 2010

I think you've pretty much summed things up. I honestly think said high school coach would probably make a good person to be head of an athletic foundation for North Texas, like David McWilliams became for UT. Fundraising is the key to our future.

Maybe you are being sarcastic or joking. David McWilliams can talk about playing with legends at UT, coaching some of them, playing and coaching against OU. He is a Darrell Royal guy, and can spin stories about that. What is Dodge going to talk about? Meeting Joe Greene, which is a big deal, but? Getting his ass handed to him for three or four years while he was coach? I know, he could talk about his days at Southlake, and how those were the good ole days. I hope you are stating he would make a good fundraiser because you want a new coach. But if he is our fundraiser after next year, that means his record at best would be 10-31. Now that kind of record should open up lots of doors. I just do not think he has the personality for it. Some here talk how he cannot communicate with his football team, motivate them, yet he is going to motivate people to give money. Sorry, I just don't see it. He is a good guy, but he is dull and boring.

eulessismore · January 20, 2010

Maybe you are being sarcastic or joking. David McWilliams can talk about playing with legends at UT, coaching some of them, playing and coaching against OU. He is a Darrell Royal guy, and can spin stories about that. What is Dodge going to talk about? Meeting Joe Greene, which is a big deal, but? Getting his ass handed to him for three or four years while he was coach? I know, he could talk about his days at Southlake, and how those were the good ole days. I hope you are stating he would make a good fundraiser because you want a new coach. But if he is our fundraiser after next year, that means his record at best would be 10-31. Now that kind of record should open up lots of doors. I just do not think he has the personality for it. Some here talk how he cannot communicate with his football team, motivate them, yet he is going to motivate people to give money. Sorry, I just don't see it. He is a good guy, but he is dull and boring.

Maybe you are getting close to the truth; my understanding though, is that McWilliams was unsuccessful as HC at Texas, figured that out, and found a niche for himself. Dodge must have been able to communicate with some people at some point. Honestly, not everyone can reach young men of college age in a diverse student body such as we have at UNT.

Green Dozer · January 20, 2010

Maybe you are getting close to the truth; my understanding though, is that McWilliams was unsuccessful as HC at Texas, figured that out, and found a niche for himself. Dodge must have been able to communicate with some people at some point. Honestly, not everyone can reach young men of college age in a diverse student body such as we have at UNT.

No, he was not successful as head coach. However, he played on a National Championship team, was an assistant coach as well. His wife was also a cheerleader. McWilliams is part of the UT family, which is why he went to the Longhorn Foundation. He loved UT and I don't think he was villified when they made the change. Dodge has not endeared himself to us in that way. He does not live here in Denton, and I have been to most basketball games since he has been here, and I have yet to see him attend one game. I have been to the football banquets and he can't wait to get out. Dickey and his family were at the games pretty often, and he usually visited with anybody who wanted to talk. You hit the nail on the head as for him being able to reach a "diverse group". That is not something he has not had to do at his previous coaching stops and is something that has bit him in the butt here. Just take a look back at his previous coaching stops and you will see what I mean.

I think Dodge was the perfect fit for Southlake. People who work for big corporations, live and breath their jobs, excel in them because they follow the "way" of the company to the letter. They expect the same of their kids in school and athletics. They provide them with all the trainers, tutors, equipment, etc. Don't have to do much motivation when the whole community is made up of over achievers. And Dodge follows his plans to the letter as well. It was just a good match. Put him in say Longview with the same playbook, and he would not have been 79 and 1 at any point. It was just a "perfect storm".

Edited January 20, 2010 by Green Dozer

KRAM1 · January 20, 2010

Tap the breaks there Green Dozer...Coach Dodge has been to several basketball games...in fact he was in attendance just this last Saturday. I have personally chatted with him several times at basketball games. Not saying he is a "regular" attendee, but I am never surprised to see him at a home game.