Watching Boise State And Tcu

Harry · January 5, 2010

TIME MACHINE MOMENT last night. I'll never forget traveling up to Boise Idaho in 1998 with my good friend Mo Green and meeting up with Mean Rob. North Texas beat Boise on the blue turf that night by a score of 21-13. I'll never forget how hospitable Bronco Bob and the Boise gang was to us that night. 11.5 years ago. Man time flies.

We ended up the season at 3-8. Dickey had OU, Texas Tech, Arizona State and Houston to deal with. It didn't matter because we were setting up a road to the future. Heck back then we were just hoping for a decent meeting room to replace the murky cave under Fouts.

FAST FORWARD to the elation of the 2001-2004 New Orleans bowl runs. I remember thinking as I walked the streets of New Orleans with my good pal NT80 we had made it. I remember sharing beers at Fritzels with great North Texas fans thinking about what a bright future we had. North Texas was a program to be reckoned with. The Athletic Center was a reality. We beat future BCS program Cincy in a freakin bowl game on national TV! Friends and family began addressing North Texas in terms of respect. And yes perhaps the stadium could become a reality. It was a beautiful time to be Green.

BACK TO REALITY: In 2005 we went 2-9. Dickey said just a blip on the radar screen. 2006, 3-9 and the fall from grace became real and Dickey was gone.

Enter stage left Dodge and hope.

2007, 2-10 yes it got worse but it was Dickey's fault. 2008, in the absolute low point we went 1-11. Wasn't as much Dickey's fault but we were young and 2009's schedule ensured success. 2009, 2-10 but 4 games we shoulda, coulda won.

How in the heck did we fall so far, so fast? What went wrong? Do we know? We essentially were beating BSU and holding our own against the TCU's of the world. We were outrecruiting SMU for a long period even beat out Tech and Baylor for some key players. Now we seem like tadpoles in the NCAA hierarchy. This is bigger than Dodge, this is bigger than RV or even Dr. B. My greatest fear is that we will rebound from all of this only to fall by the wayside again due to the fact we didn't learn from our mistakes.

The one bright spot in all of this is the fact that we are building a new stadium. But that may be the nicest stadium in the world and it wouldn't matter if the program is not winning more football games.

I know that TCU had tradition, Fort Worth support and money to help them build their dream team. Boise had huge support from their local community. Both of these may be hard for us to match as things stand today. But we have our own natural resources that have yet to be realized.

The one consistant thing that both these programs had and throw SMU in the mix on this as well, is outstanding coaching and I don't just mean head coaches but coordinators, assistants, director of operations, trainers etc. I am a Todd Dodge fan, and I hope like hades he will get this situation turned around next season. But if he does not, and we are put in the situation where we have to name a new coach it may well be the most important hire we have ever made in athetics.

TheTastyGreek · January 5, 2010

2007, 2-10 yes it got worse but it was Dickey's fault.

:whip:

Dickey isn't the reason a defense that lost one starter fell off the cliff.

I thought then and still think now that if Dickey had come back, we'd have been .500 or better in 2007.

EDIT (quickly): Which doesn't mean I think we should have kept him.

Edited January 5, 2010 by TheTastyGreek

Censored by Laurie · January 5, 2010

How about when we out-played TCU for the bulk of the game at Amon Carter in 2002 (?-shooting from the hip, here)?

That is what haunts me more than anything else, including the 2002 NO Bowl, as to where our program was in relation to these top tier teams we're discussing.

Harry · January 5, 2010

Dickey isn't the reason a defense that lost one starter fell off the cliff.
I thought then and still think now that if Dickey had come back, we'd have been .500 or better in 2007.
EDIT (quickly): Which doesn't mean I think we should have kept him.

It's interesting, but when you look back at it, Dickey had 4 amazing years by our standards getting to 4 straight bowl games. Then, after two horrible seasons we pulled the plug. At the time I saw it as the right decision. As time passes, and you think back to what he accomplished, his firing appears to be more premature. Of course you could argue that the level of play in the Sun Belt factored into this but I'm still just sayin.... Dr. Pohl decreed that when we joined the Sun Belt the goal was to dominate the league and the last 5 years have veered a long way away from that goal. We have to get back on track and the new stadium makes this even more imperative.

The Fake Lonnie Finch · January 5, 2010

This is bigger than Dodge, this is bigger than RV or even Dr. B.

No it isn't. They'd like for you to believe that so that they can have an excuse if the failure continues.

What we need is a serious, college coach. People can bomb away at Darrell Dickey all they want, but he cold lost his starting QB in August of 2005 in an automobile accident, then had a heart attack midway through 2006.

Those are real challenges. Not youth. Not "these are not my players" and other such nonsense long disproven by quick successes of many other coaches at many other schools year in and year out. Our latest, local example is SMU.

Personally, I think Rick Villareal knows he's dug himself a hole in the hiring of Dodge. I'm convinced that Dr. B doesn't know enough about it one way or the other. If she did, she'd have already forced a move.

There are dozens of coaches out there who would take this job and have us competitive from the gun. They wouldn't accept a wait, wait, wait attitude. No one else in the country is waits as long as we have been asked. Everyone else hires coaches who make their programs competitive.

I've only been associated with North Texas as a student, grad, and donor since 1990. In that time, we've hired two high school coaches. I don't care what the circumstances are, that isn't an acceptable way to run a college football program.

This thing isn't bigger than anyone. All it takes is for the people in charge to finally take it seriously.

TIgreen01 · January 5, 2010

No it isn't. They'd like for you to believe that so that they can have an excuse if the failure continues.
What we need is a serious, college coach. People can bomb away at Darrell Dickey all they want, but he cold lost his starting QB in August of 2005 in an automobile accident, then had a heart attack midway through 2006.
Those are real challenges. Not youth. Not "these are not my players" and other such nonsense long disproven by quick successes of many other coaches at many other schools year in and year out. Our latest, local example is SMU.
Personally, I think Rick Villareal knows he's dug himself a hole in the hiring of Dodge. I'm convinced that Dr. B doesn't know enough about it one way or the other. If she did, she'd have already forced a move.
There are dozens of coaches out there who would take this job and have us competitive from the gun. They wouldn't accept a wait, wait, wait attitude. No one else in the country is waits as long as we have been asked. Everyone else hires coaches who make their programs competitive.
I've only been associated with North Texas as a student, grad, and donor since 1990. In that time, we've hired two high school coaches. I don't care what the circumstances are, that isn't an acceptable way to run a college football program.
This thing isn't bigger than anyone. All it takes is for the people in charge to finally take it seriously.

Roll this post in with Adler's old rants (Fix the Problem) and you have the "learn from our mistakes" worry from Harry's post HANDLED.

The Fake Lonnie Finch · January 5, 2010

Roll this post in with Adler's old rants (Fix the Problem) and you have the "learn from our mistakes" worry from Harry's post HANDLED.

:lol:

untjim1995 · January 5, 2010

No it isn't. They'd like for you to believe that so that they can have an excuse if the failure continues.
What we need is a serious, college coach. People can bomb away at Darrell Dickey all they want, but he cold lost his starting QB in August of 2005 in an automobile accident, then had a heart attack midway through 2006.
Those are real challenges. Not youth. Not "these are not my players" and other such nonsense long disproven by quick successes of many other coaches at many other schools year in and year out. Our latest, local example is SMU.
Personally, I think Rick Villareal knows he's dug himself a hole in the hiring of Dodge. I'm convinced that Dr. B doesn't know enough about it one way or the other. If she did, she'd have already forced a move.
There are dozens of coaches out there who would take this job and have us competitive from the gun. They wouldn't accept a wait, wait, wait attitude. No one else in the country is waits as long as we have been asked. Everyone else hires coaches who make their programs competitive.
I've only been associated with North Texas as a student, grad, and donor since 1990. In that time, we've hired two high school coaches. I don't care what the circumstances are, that isn't an acceptable way to run a college football program.
This thing isn't bigger than anyone. All it takes is for the people in charge to finally take it seriously.

I don't know about this. UNT alumni and students, for the most part, don't care at all about UNT Athletics, especially football. I am thrilled to death that the vote for a new stadium passed by the student body, but I truly believe that if even half the student body voted, there would be no stadium. Hell, I am not so sure that if a vote came up on a referenedum to keep football here and that election was well covered and publicized, we would even have a reason to follow the football team. Yes, we have made major strides recently, but we are coming from almost nothing to where we are now, which is being thrilled when we have 20K+ show up for a game, even though our student body and alumni base has been huge for decades. That isn't RV's fault or Dr. Bataille's fault. You can say that if we had a real college coach that things would change, but would they for sure? I mean Hayden Fry left because support was poor. Dickey had a little success, but we never drew big crowds that galvanized the university or the city. Dodge's crowds have been big, but I think its been because of his SLC pedigree and that shine has certainly worn off.

You talk about taking football seriously here, but the city has never backed this program at all, most students only become interested when we play someone they know, and the alumni are extremely disconnected. If Dr. B comes out and says our football program is going to be priority #1, I think she knows that the community that is UNT would not be happy. Denton likes its sleepy little arts/music college town scene. Most students are way more interested in UT, A&M, OU, or Tech. The alumni have give never given back to athletics, in part, because the university wouldn't even let the AD have access to its top donors. You tell me how to take athletics/football more seriously when the history of the school and city OVERWHELMINGLY says to do the opposite. There is no doubt in my mind that all of this is bigger than Dr. B, RV, Dodge, etc.. The only silver lining is that new stadium might be a dawn of a new day at UNT, but only if the university decides to pay for that program (take it more seriously). But, history isn't on my side in thinking that things might get better.

ForneyGreen · January 5, 2010

How in the heck did we fall so far, so fast? What went wrong? Do we know? We essentially were beating BSU and holding our own against the TCU's of the world. We were outrecruiting SMU for a long period even beat out Tech and Baylor for some key players. Now we seem like tadpoles in the NCAA hierarchy. This is bigger than Dodge, this is bigger than RV or even Dr. B. My greatest fear is that we will rebound from all of this only to fall by the wayside again due to the fact we didn't learn from our mistakes.

I also felt all the same emotions watching little BSU play (sorry, should say Win) their second BCS Bowl Game. What happened?

The only thing I can really figure is that "our success early this decade was the real blip in the radar", and our long-term reality really was never as good as we thought earlier this decade.

If you think about it, these other programs for which we were competing/beating either on the field or in recruiting were way ahead of us in building their foundation. TCU already had the facilities and that Committee of 100 (I think that's what it was called) was pouring big money and time into the program. BSU got their very nice stadium and great backing from the City of Boise. SMU got their very nice stadium and alumni that "ponied-up" for a multi-million dollar head coach.

But for UNT, we had the promise of the Athletic Center (and later reality) but no other real foundation.

Actually, I can't really say "no real foundation" - because I truly believe that we did grow our core base of fans during those Sun Belt Championship years - so that was a nice outcome from earlier this decade.

So... in reality, we may be about where BSU was in the late '90's / early '00's as far as our real growth and program foundation.

NT80 · January 6, 2010

TIME MACHINE MOMENT last night. I'll never forget traveling up to Boise Idaho in 1998 with my good friend Mo Green and meeting up with Mean Rob. North Texas beat Boise on the blue turf that night by a score of 21-13. I'll never forget how hospitable Bronco Bob and the Boise gang was to us that night. 11.5 years ago. Man time flies.
We ended up the season at 3-8. Dickey had OU, Texas Tech, Arizona State and Houston to deal with. It didn't matter because we were setting up a road to the future. Heck back then we were just hoping for a decent meeting room to replace the murky cave under Fouts.
FAST FORWARD to the elation of the 2001-2004 New Orleans bowl runs. I remember thinking as I walked the streets of New Orleans with my good pal NT80 we had made it. I remember sharing beers at Fritzels with great North Texas fans thinking about what a bright future we had. North Texas was a program to be reckoned with. The Athletic Center was a reality. We beat future BCS program Cincy in a freakin bowl game on national TV! Friends and family began addressing North Texas in terms of respect. And yes perhaps the stadium could become a reality. It was a beautiful time to be Green.
BACK TO REALITY: In 2005 we went 2-9. Dickey said just a blip on the radar screen. 2006, 3-9 and the fall from grace became real and Dickey was gone.
Enter stage left Dodge and hope.
2007, 2-10 yes it got worse but it was Dickey's fault. 2008, in the absolute low point we went 1-11. Wasn't as much Dickey's fault but we were young and 2009's schedule ensured success. 2009, 2-10 but 4 games we shoulda, coulda won.
How in the heck did we fall so far, so fast? What went wrong? Do we know? We essentially were beating BSU and holding our own against the TCU's of the world. We were outrecruiting SMU for a long period even beat out Tech and Baylor for some key players. Now we seem like tadpoles in the NCAA hierarchy. This is bigger than Dodge, this is bigger than RV or even Dr. B. My greatest fear is that we will rebound from all of this only to fall by the wayside again due to the fact we didn't learn from our mistakes.
The one bright spot in all of this is the fact that we are building a new stadium. But that may be the nicest stadium in the world and it wouldn't matter if the program is not winning more football games.
I know that TCU had tradition, Fort Worth support and money to help them build their dream team. Boise had huge support from their local community. Both of these may be hard for us to match as things stand today. But we have our own natural resources that have yet to be realized.
The one consistant thing that both these programs had and throw SMU in the mix on this as well, is outstanding coaching and I don't just mean head coaches but coordinators, assistants, director of operations, trainers etc. I am a Todd Dodge fan, and I hope like hades he will get this situation turned around next season. But if he does not, and we are put in the situation where we have to name a new coach it may well be the most important hire we have ever made in athetics.

Excellent post. Yes those were fun times back in 2002 in N'Orleans, good memories. As NT fans we have endured many years and chapters of agony spiced by a continual hope for the big bang that elevates us where we desire to be.

I still believe the time was right for a change with Dickey. Although only two years removed from a bowl season there was no joy watching the product on the field, and the fanbase was in full retreat. While Dodge has struggled with wins many fans remain, so far. I agree with the higher bar RV has set for this coming season. It will ensure either a winning coach or a new coach takes the team into the new stadium in 2011.

And that new stadium will be a huge asset to the program. Finally, we can say football has joined the modern era. Now, if we can just win in the modern era.

FirefightnRick · January 6, 2010

I don't know about this. UNT alumni and students, for the most part, don't care at all about UNT Athletics, especially football....
......Dodge's crowds have been big, but I think its been because of his SLC pedigree and that shine has certainly worn off.

Which is it? No one cares about NT Football, or, Yeah!!! we just finished the 3rd highest attended season in history despite only having seen 5 wins at home the past 5 years?

Rick

ADLER · January 6, 2010

What we need is a serious, college coach. People can bomb away at Darrell Dickey all they want, but he cold lost his starting QB in August of 2005 in an automobile accident, then had a heart attack midway through 2006.

Joey Byerly wasn't lost in an automobile accident prior to the 2005 season, he quit attending classes and dropped out of school.

Andrew Smith was lost in an automobile accident, but that was during the summer of 2004 leaving plenty of time for Dickey to find a replacement for those 2005 and 2006 seasons.

TheTastyGreek · January 6, 2010

Joey Byerly wasn't lost in an automobile accident prior to the 2005 season, he quit attending classes and dropped out of school.
Andrew Smith was lost in an automobile accident, but that was during the summer of 2004 leaving plenty of time for Dickey to find a replacement for those 2005 and 2006 seasons.

You're responding to a different point, but I do believe that if either of those guys were around and we didn't have to rely on a freshman with a shoulder injury that wasn't able to practice and had to deal with the... leadership issues we all know we had on the offensive side of the ball (take it away, SilverEagle), the 2005 season would have been dramatically different.

And if we hadn't made the coaching change, I think 2007 would have been an improvement on the scale that we're demanding of Dodge in the year to come. I think that even if nobody on our staff had been able to develop Meager to the sort of improvement we saw in his limited time as a starter under Dodge, then Woody Wilson's second year in the same system would have been enough (coupled with the returning defense and 2nd year in Bleil's 3-4 scheme) to get us back to .500.

Again, there were other reasons to make a change (just like there were the past two Decembers), and I'm not saying we shouldn't have made a coaching change. I'm just saying that if we hadn't, I think that in 2007 we'd have already made it back to the level that many here are skeptical we'll be able to reach in 2010.

foutsrouts · January 6, 2010

Dickey isn't the reason a defense that lost one starter fell off the cliff.
I thought then and still think now that if Dickey had come back, we'd have been .500 or better in 2007.
EDIT (quickly): Which doesn't mean I think we should have kept him.

If he would have had the cojones to dump his out of control OC he would probably be here at this very moment, and I doubt that we would be in the dire straits that we are in now. Not real smart on his part.

untjim1995 · January 6, 2010

Which is it? No one cares about NT Football, or, Yeah!!! we just finished the 3rd highest attended season in history despite only having seen 5 wins at home the past 5 years?
Rick

My opinion is that we got those big crowds this year--early, not counting Army, which would draw well for UNT no matter what--because of the buzz of having Riley Dodge at QB running Dad's offense. That buzz will probably not be there unless we do win. But, to the bigger point, and you more than most already know this, is that UNT's student body an dlumni base overwhelmingly act apathetic to the school's athletic teams. That is my point. And, yes, IMO, that is bigger than Dr. Bataille, Dr. Pohl, Dr. Hurley, RV, Craig Helwig, Steve Sloan, Fred McCain, TD, Dickey, Simon, Parker, Nelson, Bob Tyler, Jerry Moore, and Hayden Fry combined.

I do agree with you about the no excuses thing--I really do, but I also believe that message has been reiterated to Todd Dodge this year by RV for 2010.

houstonmeangreen · January 7, 2010

Which is it? No one cares about NT Football, or, Yeah!!! we just finished the 3rd highest attended season in history despite only having seen 5 wins at home the past 5 years?
Rick

Rick, you are so right....things are changing in this world...maybe it has to do with changes in the economy, loss of liberties and more govenment control...who knows?...but what i can see is there is tremendous underlying demand for the "college experience "at UNT....on par with the big 12 schools and this includes football. I too am amazed at the attendance numbers considering the wins....how many of the suites for the new stadium have already been sold...and we haven't started construction...its wonderful.

build this stadium and hire a good coach and you will have to start looking at expansion of the stadium sooner than you are expecting....mark my words. This is only football...college football, but we all want to belong...don't we..and like many of you, my heart belongs to the Meangreen and UNT.(more than the other schools that were stupid enough to graduate me )