The Glass Ceiling Is Shattered!

KingDL1 · January 10, 2010

First: Current Temp is Dayton is 20° F, Partly Cloudy. This place sucks, but I’m putting on a coat and hat anyway.
Second: Thank you for making me feel better about my own enjoyable, juvenile misreading of the original post about whacking, johnsons, etc.
I’m going out on a limb here into the cultural values realm of the Mordor part of the board simply because the last two posters are ones I respect even though I have differences with their opinions at times. You two are funny, and have a good logical train that challenges my own in good ways. This is nothing more than a feeble attempt to try and have a civil conversation about different ideas to come to a larger understanding of where we can agree and where can agree to be different. I wouldn’t try this with too many others on the board, and if this backfires, I’ll exit promptly, with apologies, back into my silly-only motley quoting of pop-culture modus to less annoy the general population here.
Chopping off of hands and other extremities, this being about mental illness, pathology, and not about gay identity. Ok. Work with me. If it’s about having a problem with Gay identity, issues, etc, I’m not gonna argue with that. People can like it or not. Fine by me. I don’t want someone to get on my case because of what I believe. I worked hard to get to this state of faith, and don’t need someone else to tell me I’m a dick because of what I believe. I wouldn’t do the same to someone else.
Now, here’s where I’m curious to talk. If it’s really about this person’s personal choice to augment themselves in a perverse way against biology, and not about them being gay, you’re making an argument based on biological determinism. We’re born and develop through a series of genetic factors (chromosomes as put earlier). To electively choose to change this is some type of affront. Against God, against nature. Doesn’t matter. The issue here is that we are individually monkeying around with processes beyond us. And, to be clear, I’m talking about elective choices, and not life or death choices like getting cancer treatment or going in for the periodic colonoscopy.
If the prob with this person is that they electively chose to F* around with what nature gave them, and nothing more than that, how far are you willing to extend that criteria to judge other types of elective operations? I could easily make a lame strawman argument here about cosmetic surgery, boob jobs, pec implants, tummy tucks, and other vanity augmentations. Instead, I’ll go autobiographical. About three months ago, I noticed that one of my incisor teeth had been bent back slightly behind another. I went to the dentist about it. Turns out that, at the age of 38, my wisdom teeth are finally coming in (about time!!!! I need the help) and are pushing my teeth together, resulting in the somewhat ramshackle row I have on my lower jaw. Surgery is scheduled a few weeks from now to remove them. I made sick leave arrangements at work last week. Apparently, my coworkers had noticed the mess in my mouth and asked when I would have the follow-up surgical process to straighten out everything and get a nice smooth, clean smile, which would involve braces among other things. Needless to say, they were shocked when I said I wasn’t going to. Wasn’t interested in having a straight row of teeth since I can still chew food just fine.
Now, I don’t want to be accused of reducing this issue here to a simplistic analogy, so let me be clear. I’m not saying that whacking off your tallywhacker (hehe) is the same thing in degree of augmentation as getting your teeth straightened out. It’s not. Much much more invasive. Agreed. However, if the problem with the particular individual under discussion is not about his/her gay identity, but against their desecration of their biologically-determined condition, how do your prohibitions against it differ from many of the less radical forms of physical augmentation that seem to be the accepted norm these days?
And really, very very seriously, I’m not interested in picking a stupid fight here. You two are funny and informative for me, making me look more closely at my own beliefs in good ways. That’s the only reason I chose to respond. If this is not worth extending, cool with me and I’ll let it go, or we can take it up in PMs.

There are facts as well even in breast implants, and lets face it breast implant surgery is not near the mental issue of castrating one's self.

Women With Breast Implants Have Elevated Suicide Rate

Breast Augmentation and Suicide

Breast implants linked to higher suicide rates

Breast Implants Linked to Higher Suicide Rate

This is just the tip of the iceberg but self mutalation in Sex reassignment surgery instead of getting quality health care, mental heath care should not be an option.

UNT90 · January 10, 2010

First: Current Temp is Dayton is 20° F, Partly Cloudy. This place sucks, but I'm putting on a coat and hat anyway.
Second: Thank you for making me feel better about my own enjoyable, juvenile misreading of the original post about whacking, johnsons, etc.
I'm going out on a limb here into the cultural values realm of the Mordor part of the board simply because the last two posters are ones I respect even though I have differences with their opinions at times. You two are funny, and have a good logical train that challenges my own in good ways. This is nothing more than a feeble attempt to try and have a civil conversation about different ideas to come to a larger understanding of where we can agree and where can agree to be different. I wouldn't try this with too many others on the board, and if this backfires, I'll exit promptly, with apologies, back into my silly-only motley quoting of pop-culture modus to less annoy the general population here.
Chopping off of hands and other extremities, this being about mental illness, pathology, and not about gay identity. Ok. Work with me. If it's about having a problem with Gay identity, issues, etc, I'm not gonna argue with that. People can like it or not. Fine by me. I don't want someone to get on my case because of what I believe. I worked hard to get to this state of faith, and don't need someone else to tell me I'm a dick because of what I believe. I wouldn't do the same to someone else.
Now, here's where I'm curious to talk. If it's really about this person's personal choice to augment themselves in a perverse way against biology, and not about them being gay, you're making an argument based on biological determinism. We're born and develop through a series of genetic factors (chromosomes as put earlier). To electively choose to change this is some type of affront. Against God, against nature. Doesn't matter. The issue here is that we are individually monkeying around with processes beyond us. And, to be clear, I'm talking about elective choices, and not life or death choices like getting cancer treatment or going in for the periodic colonoscopy.
If the prob with this person is that they electively chose to F* around with what nature gave them, and nothing more than that, how far are you willing to extend that criteria to judge other types of elective operations? I could easily make a lame strawman argument here about cosmetic surgery, boob jobs, pec implants, tummy tucks, and other vanity augmentations. Instead, I'll go autobiographical. About three months ago, I noticed that one of my incisor teeth had been bent back slightly behind another. I went to the dentist about it. Turns out that, at the age of 38, my wisdom teeth are finally coming in (about time!!!! I need the help) and are pushing my teeth together, resulting in the somewhat ramshackle row I have on my lower jaw. Surgery is scheduled a few weeks from now to remove them. I made sick leave arrangements at work last week. Apparently, my coworkers had noticed the mess in my mouth and asked when I would have the follow-up surgical process to straighten out everything and get a nice smooth, clean smile, which would involve braces among other things. Needless to say, they were shocked when I said I wasn't going to. Wasn't interested in having a straight row of teeth since I can still chew food just fine.
Now, I don't want to be accused of reducing this issue here to a simplistic analogy, so let me be clear. I'm not saying that whacking off your tallywhacker (hehe) is the same thing in degree of augmentation as getting your teeth straightened out. It's not. Much much more invasive. Agreed. However, if the problem with the particular individual under discussion is not about his/her gay identity, but against their desecration of their biologically-determined condition, how do your prohibitions against it differ from many of the less radical forms of physical augmentation that seem to be the accepted norm these days?
And really, very very seriously, I'm not interested in picking a stupid fight here. You two are funny and informative for me, making me look more closely at my own beliefs in good ways. That's the only reason I chose to respond. If this is not worth extending, cool with me and I'll let it go, or we can take it up in PMs.

No need to tiptoe as I like to think I'm capable of a civilized conversation. If this were about gay identity, why doesn't every gay person want to either add or remove body parts? Almost all gay people are perfectly satisfied with what they have in their jeans. There are much deeper issues at work here than gay identity.

I think the transgender crowd have deep psychological issues that go far beyond sexuality. But, hey, those are their issues, until they obtain some position of power over me, at which time it becomes my issue (which has never happened, by the way). The reason I say this is because I would then have to deal with their psychological issues. When I here about the transgender police officer or firefighter, I cringe. Especially the police officer, for the obvious reasons.

I really don't care if they want to remove a body part, but please don't try to present it as normal, or worse, present this group as a protected class in this society (aimed at the board in general, not you).

JayDub · January 10, 2010

Research about what? The only person that these operations affect are the person themselves and anyone that has a close relationship with them. It's his/her penis, not yours. Why do you care if he/she has it removed (or changed)? Are you the one who gave it to him/her?
If this person is now more comfortable with their sexual identity, then logically they can be a better employee. To me, what this person did is no different than just about any other cosmetic procedure(s).

THIS.

Good luck with that, you can be as naive as you like. This whole procedure is about being something they are not, this warps a person to their core. Life is never so easily divided up that a freak job operation like this would not affect every aspect of their life.

Definitely NOT this.

*facepalm*

Shuke-D · January 10, 2010

There are facts as well even in breast implants, and lets face it breast implant surgery is not near the mental issue of castrating one's self.
Women With Breast Implants Have Elevated Suicide Rate
Breast Augmentation and Suicide
Breast implants linked to higher suicide rates
Breast Implants Linked to Higher Suicide Rate
This is just the tip of the iceberg but self mutalation in Sex reassignment surgery instead of getting quality health care, mental heath care should not be an option.

That's fair enough. I avoided the analogy to breast implants because it seemed too obvious, but you make a consistent point here. In fact, I now realize that although I have no problem with sex reassignment surgery, I do look down on people who get these type of vanity procedures, which is ethically inconsistent. I either have to ease up on them, or apply the same standards to this issue.

Shuke-D · January 10, 2010

No need to tiptoe as I like to think I'm capable of a civilized conversation.

I tiptoe because, as has humorously pointed out elsewhere on the board, I am a little shy and timid. And my overly pre-apologetic tone was really for others.

I think the transgender crowd have deep psychological issues that go far beyond sexuality. But, hey, those are their issues, until they obtain some position of power over me, at which time it becomes my issue (which has never happened, by the way). The reason I say this is because I would then have to deal with their psychological issues. When I here about the transgender police officer or firefighter, I cringe. Especially the police officer, for the obvious reasons.

This I can buy, even though I am not as sure as you are about deep psychological issues being directly related to transgender identity. However, holding people who aspire to positions of authority over large parts of society to very high psychological standards is fine by me, so long as this approach is applied broadly and not just to issues like sexual identity, etc. I think we have all, at some point in our life, met someone who had a deep-seated sense of inferiorty and it affected their ability to be an impartial authority figure.

TheTastyGreek · January 10, 2010

I think we have all, at some point in our life, met someone who had a deep-seated sense of inferiority

Someone? At some point?

Sometimes, I think it's something you catch from the water in Denton.

UNT90 · January 10, 2010

I tiptoe because, as has humorously pointed out elsewhere on the board, I am a little shy and timid. And my overly pre-apologetic tone was really for others.
This I can buy, even though I am not as sure as you are about deep psychological issues being directly related to transgender identity. However, holding people who aspire to positions of authority over large parts of society to very high psychological standards is fine by me, so long as this approach is applied broadly and not just to issues like sexual identity, etc. I think we have all, at some point in our life, met someone who had a deep-seated sense of inferiorty and it affected their ability to be an impartial authority figure.

The problem is the politics. If you have a person in a position of power, especially a governmental position, they will never be psychologically evaluated after requesting this type of surgery. They will claim gender discrimination and no governmental administrator is going to be willing to push against that issue. The administrator will just either cross their fingers and hope everything is OK or assign the transgender to a position in which there is little risk.

Edited January 10, 2010 by UNT90

Shuke-D · January 11, 2010

The problem is the politics.

That's a true statement in a larger sense than I think you intended it.

If you have a person in a position of power, especially a governmental position, they will never be psychologically evaluated after requesting this type of surgery. They will claim gender discrimination and no governmental administrator is going to be willing to push against that issue. The administrator will just either cross their fingers and hope everything is OK or assign the transgender to a position in which there is little risk.

I think I agree with this in a general sense, just not solely to the issue of sex reassignment surgery. The latest hub-bub over Harry Reid getting a pass for his stupid remarks makes this point. I would also wonder whether if, say, a City Manager was revealed to have a serious gambling addiction, he/she would be submitted to a psychological evaluation to see whether he/she is fit to handle the taxpayers' money. I can't say I agree with your assumption that this person's choice is symptomatic of a larger psychological issue, nor can I refute it. I haven't spent any real time thinking about it, reading about it beyond my own basic assumptions. So all I have is an opinion and not an argument. But I do agree that politics, and political positions, is a fairly insular world, and that once in, it's hard to do much about people who demonstrate documentable proclivities that make them unfit for office.

I think that's as close as we'll get to agreeing on this topic. But it was fun getting here.

SilverEagle · January 12, 2010

So let me get this straight. The University of Michigan is hiring an alum to head up the athletic department? I'm sure the board (and hiring authority) at the North Texas Exes are shocked by such a radical idea.

I just thought I'd wave this under the noses of the Exes again......