Think Troy Will Stop Oversigning?

SUMG · December 31, 2009

They're already at 27 commitments. A league with a strong commissioner would put an end to this crap:

http://insider.espn.go.com/ncf/recruiting/...schoolId%3d2653

Edited December 31, 2009 by SUMG

FirefightnRick · December 31, 2009

Here we go again.

Rick

buff64 · December 31, 2009

Schools in all conferences oversign. Check Big 12 signings the last few years. The Sun Belt conference is no different, all that matters is how many players end up on scholarship in the fall.

Green P1 · December 31, 2009

I wouldn't if I were them.

SUMG · December 31, 2009

Schools in all conferences oversign. Check Big 12 signings the last few years. The Sun Belt conference is no different, all that matters is how many players end up on scholarship in the fall.

Oh really? http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writ...ning/index.html

wardly · December 31, 2009

it appears that troy has been able to maintain their football program at their present level by using jucos as a strong recruiting base, more so than most schools. would this approach work for us?

TIgreen01 · December 31, 2009

The league commish will do nothing to stop this. The league's current football bell cow is using this to build some pretty decent teams....and helping the league to get more media exposure.

For this to stop, the school presidents need to step up...for the same reasons that the SEC school presidents did---b/c it is embarrassing to the schools in the conference to be associated with this kind of activity.

The Fake Lonnie Finch · December 31, 2009

It doesn't matter. Until they ban it, there's nothing wrong with Troy doing it. It's no different than in the days before the WAC banned partial qualifiers, allowing Fresno State and Boise State to stock up on them at everyone else's expense.

Look, a savvy coaching staff does everything it can do within the rules. Nothing Troy is doing is against any rule. Fresno and Boise signing every last non-qualifying kid worth a look out of California was legal as well. Why bellyache about it? It gave those schools the opportunity to move up in the world.

There's an old saying: If you can't beat them, join them. We're neither beating them nor joining them. So, our future and theirs will not change. Congrats to Troy for having a coaching staff who is smart enough to get every player they possibly can for their program.

It's the best of all world for the kids. They know if they do qualify late, they have a place to go. If not, no sweat, they hit a JUCO for a year or two and still have Troy on board with them. It's a win-win situation for everyone.

I know this may come as a shock to many in this area, but not every high school football player has the storybook, Southlake home life. A lot of those guys come from rough backgrounds and hopelessly broken homes. Academics may be further down the list of their daily worries, behind things such as their personal safety, food, shelter and the like.

Troy gives them some peace of mind about their future. I've got no problem with that. In fact, I applaud it sign. Sign away, Troy.

If you stand still, people are going to pass you. Troy, like Fresno and Boise before them, isn't standing still.

buff64 · December 31, 2009

If I remember correctly UNT oversigned last spring, then sure enough even with the loss of 5 scholies, enough players quit the team or flunked out by summers end to correct the oversigning.

Stan R · December 31, 2009

Absolutely agree with TFLF. You do what you have to do to win within the rules. Spare me the sanctimonious whining.

December 31, 2009

I don't like it but I realize that until that loophole is closed Troy is within their rights to continue oversigning. Maybe if everyone did it 1) there would be no gripe coming or 2) they would change the rules.

What galls me is that Troy is the lowest scholastically in the Sub Belt and third lowest nationally in the FBS based on 50% percentile SAT/ACT test scores of entering freshmen. If their standards are already that low then how can they expect the nonqualifiers to ever make it? I'm sure they're hoping that they can get some of them through junior college. If they can they've got a good player and if they can't it didn't cost them that much to try.

The Fake Lonnie Finch · December 31, 2009

I don't like it but I realize that until that loophole is closed Troy is within their rights to continue oversigning. Maybe if everyone did it 1) there would be no gripe coming or 2) they would change the rules.
What galls me is that Troy is the lowest scholastically in the Sub Belt and third lowest nationally in the FBS based on 50% percentile SAT/ACT test scores of entering freshmen. If their standards are already that low then how can they expect the nonqualifiers to ever make it? I'm sure they're hoping that they can get some of them through junior college. If they can they've got a good player and if they can't it didn't cost them that much to try.

It's not a loophole, there's just no rule against it.

Also, not every program needs to do it. Oklahoma, Texas, USC, Alabama etc. don't have to oversign. Kids already want to come there. The only schools doing it are those on the edge - Kansas State, Mississippi, Troy, etc. They do it to keep up.

Finally, who cares what Troy's academic status is? We all know not every college in America is the same. If Troy offers an educational opportunity through athletics to some kids who otherwise wouldn't have much of an opportunity, what's the problem with it? It is what it is - a school out in the middle of nowheresville South Alabama. Kids there need an education as well.

The academic baloney discussions around college football are laughable. Most of the kids playing at supposedly "better" academic universities are majoring in junk like sociology or some sort of P.E. knock off anyway, so what difference does it make? It's not like these kids are overcrowding the physics departments, so who cares? Troy gives them a chance to get their sociology or P.E. degrees there instead of Florida, Alabama, Auburn, Georgia, or some other regional school. Big deal.

GrandGreen · December 31, 2009

I don't like it but I realize that until that loophole is closed Troy is within their rights to continue oversigning. Maybe if everyone did it 1) there would be no gripe coming or 2) they would change the rules.
What galls me is that Troy is the lowest scholastically in the Sub Belt and third lowest nationally in the FBS based on 50% percentile SAT/ACT test scores of entering freshmen. If their standards are already that low then how can they expect the nonqualifiers to ever make it? I'm sure they're hoping that they can get some of them through junior college. If they can they've got a good player and if they can't it didn't cost them that much to try.

Didn't you just answer your own question? They have the lowest of standards, therefore anyone that can make it through the NCAA minimums has a great chance to be able to play at Troy.

GrandGreen · December 31, 2009

It's not a loophole, there's just no rule against it.
Also, not every program needs to do it. Oklahoma, Texas, USC, Alabama etc. don't have to oversign. Kids already want to come there. The only schools doing it are those on the edge - Kansas State, Mississippi, Troy, etc. They do it to keep up.
Finally, who cares what Troy's academic status is? We all know not every college in America is the same. If Troy offers an educational opportunity through athletics to some kids who otherwise wouldn't have much of an opportunity, what's the problem with it? It is what it is - a school out in the middle of nowheresville South Alabama. Kids there need an education as well.
The academic baloney discussions around college football are laughable. Most of the kids playing at supposedly "better" academic universities are majoring in junk like sociology or some sort of P.E. knock off anyway, so what difference does it make? It's not like these kids are overcrowding the physics departments, so who cares? Troy gives them a chance to get their sociology or P.E. degrees there instead of Florida, Alabama, Auburn, Georgia, or some other regional school. Big deal.

Sure it is a loophole. The intent of the 25 scholarships a year and 85 total scholarships maximums are obviously to limit the number of players at any university? Conversely, signing a letter of intent is supposed to signify that player and school have a contractual agreement. The loophole is that even though they sign more than the limits, less than that number actually qualify to enter school. Per their coach, he always has scholarships available for those that qualify which is hard to believe given they over sign every year.

Sure there is academic hypocrisy at every turn in the NCAA as you have stated. Is Troy's manipulation of the recruiting process any worse than some of your examples? No, but it is more blatant and it does give them an advantage over the other Belt schools. The truth is that Troy has little to give up in terms of academic reputation and I assume the school is okay with trading a piece of their integrity for a winning team. As far as Troy provided educational opportunities, that is a real stretch.

stebo · January 1, 2010

How has Troy signed over 25 when National Signing Day hasn't even happened yet? All that I see in that link is a bunch of verbals and those things can change. Plus, these sites are updated by outside sources - the kids report their own verbals. It is very possible that not every kid has an offer or that this has not been updated... or that some of the offers are for preferred walk ons, etc. Just trying to give them the benefit of the doubt - but whatever it is, we need to watch and learn because Troy has been to 5 bowls over the last 7 years... 4 straight bowls... 4 straight Sun Belt championships, have had 2 first round draft picks, 2 second round draft picks, they have beat teams from the MAC, CUSA, and Big 12, have a win over a top 25 team, and most importantly - they have never lost to North Texas. So why aren't we paying attention?

Edited January 1, 2010 by stebo

FirefightnRick · January 1, 2010

Back in '07 Dodge came in and didn't follow up with one offer that Dickey did to a kid out west and the media jumped all over us for it. That's what we need, more of that. Let's do it because Troy does it, and possibly have it happen countless more times. The Dallas Morning News will have us even further in the toilet over how we jilt high school players out of free opportunities at a college education.

Rick

stebo · January 1, 2010

Back in '07 Dodge came in and didn't follow up with one offer that Dickey did to a kid out west and the media jumped all over us for it. That's what we need, more of that. Let's do it because Troy does it, and possibly have it happen countless more times. The Dallas Morning News will have us even further in the toilet over how we jilt high school players out of free opportunities at a college education.
Rick

Let's compare apples to giraffes!

Troy has never, not once - had to turn a kid away. Recruits that are right on the border of getting a ship - they are just straight with them and tell them that they are on a waiting list. Then they grey shirt them if needed. The article that I read last year stated that that had happened a whopping one time over the last 5 years, one grey shirt over 5 years due to "oversigning". Guess what? Kids don't make their grades, or they quit, or they change their minds. Look at our past 5 signing classes and tell me that 100% of those kids showed up and stuck around. Troy is being smart. If the athlete bails, we are supposed to wish them well but our depth goes down. Why do we lose to the big boys - lack of depth. Troy has figured out a way to hedge their bets and we should be doing the same damn thing. Kids these days are finicky. Who knows, myabe we would if we could but there aren't more than 25 quality players that want to come here anymore.

DeepGreen · January 1, 2010

Good discussion here. The question is, at the end of the day will Troy's low academics keep them from moving up to another conference (CUSA) when an opening occurs, or will their success on the gridiron help them move up? My guess is success on the fooball field will rule.

forevereagle · January 2, 2010

they have never lost to North Texas.

Not your most correct statement. Here.

FirefightnRick · January 3, 2010

Let's compare apples to giraffes!
Troy has figured out a way to hedge their bets

Yeah! They hedge their bets in the way of one of the lowest academic standards that you will find. I may be wrong but I suspect North Texas doesn't do it because it has to go after a different athlete, which is the difference between a 15 on the ACT and a 19. The odds of the majority of our recruits qualifying are higher than theirs. We can't take that risk. If we did and everyone qualified, someone, no, more than someone will be turned away every year. That's just what we need, more bad press and an even worse reputation in the Texas high school ranks.

And sure, I'm all for the arguement that if Troy does it, we should too. But the SEC is putting a clamp on this practice as I imagine other conferences are too. There's a reason we aren't whether it be for ethical standards or that it just isn't feasible? But until everyone can get away with it, it shouldn't be allowed.

Rick

stebo · January 3, 2010

Not your most correct statement. Here.

Sorry, I was referring to Troy in the Belt. in 03-04, they were still independent... so let me rephrase that, North Texas has never beat Troy since they became a member of the Sun Belt conference.

stebo · January 3, 2010

Yeah! They hedge their bets in the way of one of the lowest academic standards that you will find. I may be wrong but I suspect North Texas doesn't do it because it has to go after a different athlete, which is the difference between a 15 on the ACT and a 19. The odds of the majority of our recruits qualifying are higher than theirs. We can't take that risk. If we did and everyone qualified, someone, no, more than someone will be turned away every year. That's just what we need, more bad press and an even worse reputation in the Texas high school ranks.
And sure, I'm all for the arguement that if Troy does it, we should too. But the SEC is putting a clamp on this practice as I imagine other conferences are too. There's a reason we aren't whether it be for ethical standards or that it just isn't feasible? But until everyone can get away with it, it shouldn't be allowed.
Rick

This might be a question for Silver - but maybe you know. In the past 10 years, have we ever had an entire recruiting class show up? How many guys end of going to JUCO's or don't make their grades or quit? Troy does have an advantage - they don't have to worry about APR crap. NT can't even offer the full ship level yet because we are still dealing with poor APR scores (essentially from all the kids quitting). Troy is classified (along with ULM) as a lower economic status school and does not have to obey the APR rules.

KingDL1 · January 4, 2010

This might be a question for Silver - but maybe you know. In the past 10 years, have we ever had an entire recruiting class show up? How many guys end of going to JUCO's or don't make their grades or quit? Troy does have an advantage - they don't have to worry about APR crap. NT can't even offer the full ship level yet because we are still dealing with poor APR scores (essentially from all the kids quitting). Troy is classified (along with ULM) as a lower economic status school and does not have to obey the APR rules.

This is what should really anger everyone. complete crap.

rcade · January 4, 2010

Would anyone here trade places with Troy and Louisiana-Monroe, though?

The Fake Lonnie Finch · January 4, 2010

Would anyone here trade places with Troy and Louisiana-Monroe, though?

No. We're all about academics here at North Texas. On the athletics website, we list the players' class grades and GPAs instead of game statistics. The player bios are full of highlights of the players' academic tests and projects, not game highlights.